The relationship between Luna and Lily is getting somewhat problematic (pix added #9)

Well, I can see a tendency here that Luna is getting more and more stressed by Lily. I'll try to give you a brief impression of what is going on here, but I fear this is going to be long...

Anyway, since Lily moved in here in 2003 at the age of 11 weeks (Luna was 3 at that point), she choose Luna as her mother figure. Luna accepted her new role, and even let her suckle for more that three years (I don't know if she's still doing that, but I haven't seen it for a while). But when they interact in any way, it was (and still is) always Lily who makes the start.

For a while now I notice that Luna is getting more and more impatient. There's a lot of hissing and growling from her now, and in the end, she's always the one who walks away. I witnessed scenes when Lily jumped onto Luna's back, only because she wanted to play, or because she was jealous when Luna was lying next to me.

Apart from that, Lily is stalking Luna in a very subtle way. Many times a day Luna cannot do a single step without being followed by Lily. Or Lily interferes her actions. For example yesterday, when Luna jumped onto the table and Lily has watched her from the other side of the table, and the moment she jumped, Lily jumped on the table from the other side. Of course Luna got startled and fled. I felt so sorry for her. You have to know, Luna is not a very active girl, it takes a lot of pondering and considering before she decides to do something, and Lily's behavior doesn't make it easier for her.

There's also this jealousy thing going on between them. None of them can stand it when the other one is near me. Two nights ago, Luna came into my bed and just wanted to lay down when she saw that Lily was already in my bed, lying next to my feet. She just growled and whined - and left the room. My heart broke for her.

I don't know what to do. A while ago, I read an article in a German cat magazine, saying that when the stress factor is getting too high for one cat, it's better to rehome the other. But I don't want to do that. Besides, there are still many times when I see them together. They always sleep close to each other when I'm coming home from work. But it seems that Luna more and more needs her breaks from Lily. I know, on the other hand, that Lily couldn't live without Luna. A couple of days ago, when I left the house with Luna because she went to the vet, Lily whined and acted very upset.

I'd love to know what's going on in their heads. What would I give to know what they are thinking and feeling! I'm even thinking about contacting Nancy, the animal psychic who has already "read" some PT pets.

I'd wish I'd know if Luna remembers her first three years when she was alone with me, and I wonder if she wants that time back. And I wonder if Lily feels that there is this strong bond between Luna and me, and if it's making her upset. Maybe this is why she's acting this way. (don't get this wrong, Lily is always friendly and sweet, I never saw her acting aggressive or mean, but I think she's smarter than Luna :o, and more athletic, and she seems to have gotten aware of that lately).

And don't think that I don't love Lily, I do, but I just can't help it that Luna has this very special place in my heart. Maybe it is because she has all these health problems, and because we were on our own for three years. Anyway, to Luna, I'm her mommy, and she's mommy's girl. I'm sure Lily is frustrated about this at times, but she never shows it to me, she's always sweet and charming.

So what do you think about this? Do you think this situation is getting alarming, or is it something that sounds familiar to you? Cats really are "little people with fur and tails", they really act like children, don't they?

Kirsten

I suspect Luna and Lily both want you and only you. I have found that my cats are much happier when I have company and they can all get their individual attention, not from me alone. I think there is always a rivalry going on in my house and it is worse when I am alone, which is most of the time. They all want to be "queen bee" and it just isn't possible.

I would wait for a comment from someone with lots of cats. They must have it down to a science; I do not. My cats fight quite a bit and I don't do anything expect tell them to stop and clap my hands. Juni and Miley are the worst at this game.

Miley, the oldest cat, has always thought she should be mine and vice versa since day one. She accepted the other cats, but I am sure, would prefer having me all to herself. She is always at a full rate jealous mood and it is just part of her personality/complex. I think that her personality has effected her health as well, but that is just a guess.

I don't know what to tell you except you are not alone. I suspect lots of us have the same problem. It happens with skin kids too!

Maybe a little kitty prozac for the older cat? Miley takes meds but not for her silly personality, not yet anyway!

Can you distract the younger cat and then pay additional attention to the older one?

I usually just tell them to "oh stop"........treats for everyone someones help!

is it just me, or does it seem that female cats seem to have harder times getting along with other female cats? they seem more apt to be jealous too.

kinda like most women i know! LOL!

~ Aki :D

Well, I'm also alone most of the time. It doesn't happen very often that I have company, and when I have, Lily is always trying to get their attention; jumps into their laps or is sniffing their faces. Luna doesn't do that, and this is why visitors always refer to Lily as the "friendlier" and "sweeter" cat.

I was also thinking about Luna's UTI problems being related to this, but she had them before (before Lily moved in). And even though both of them probably want my full attention when I'm home, I think it's better for them not to live as single cats because I'm working 40 hours a week (and sometimes even more).

Luna is currently on Relaxan, on which my vet put much hope, but so far, it's not working. The next thing I will try are Bachflower remedies; they helped Peggy a lot with her anxiety problems.

Kirsten

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is it just me, or does it seem that female cats seem to have harder times getting along with other female cats?

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Hm, I don't know, I never had males. Would be interesting to hear what others think about this.

Kirsten

I know that for years The Princess and Precious had a real fued gong with lots of snarls and hisses.
But after her Dear Shemp passed on ,then they actually became friends.Thats really the only rivalry as they really do get along.
That must be terrible to have Two Cats in an apartment and have this fighting. we pray that they can become friends again.

Okay, Kirsten - the next male kitten you meet.... :D

The psychic, Nancy Efrusy, is on holidays for about another 10 days, I think. But see Marketplace for Michael, a pet psychologist in Vienna - basic services are no charge. That might be an idea.

I tell you what I do and that is to brush each one for some one on one time, our special time for bonding and loving. Amy enjoys it the most and as long as I will brush, she will lay there and purrrrrrrr. Giz LOVES it also but on her terms, not laying but walking back and forth, never being still and always trying to grab the shedding tool. Samantha don't care for it a bit so we get our one on one time when she gets in my lap. Boo is a compltetely different story, she is a touch me not that demands attention, mainly laying in your lap or in bed laying against me. I just try to make sure they each get alone time with me and I really enjoy it...

As far as liking each other! :eek: NOT! They will not lay on the same bed, the same sofa or share ANYTHING.... opps, except for treat time... :rolleyes:

Thanks!

Gary, it's not that they fight all the time. Today for instance, both of them were relaxed and rested on my bed most of the time.

Catty1, I think it wouldn't make a difference to wait until Nancy is back from her holiday, but that Michael may also be an option. Thanks for bringing this to my attention!

Laura, I think one good thing about brushing is that the brush will put their scents on each other. This was something that helped Luna accepting Lily when I brought her home 4 years ago. I rubbed them with a wet towel because it was too hot, and the effect was amazing. I think I will try this again tomorrow.


BTW, here are some photos of them, taken last Sunday when it was VERY hot. The girls were in the living room, and they didn't mind being close to each other.

http://www.catmom.de/pix/ll169.jpg

http://www.catmom.de/pix/ll170.jpg


Lily, sweet as usual:

http://www.catmom.de/pix/lily196.jpg


Luna, impossible not to melt when she's looking at you like this:

http://www.catmom.de/pix/luna190.jpg

Having three males and a female, I can tell you from experence that getting females to get along is very difficult. Spook will start teritorial peeing and growling with another female in the house (even temporarily) and doesn't really care about males, even guests and newcomers.

I hope Luna and Lilly start getting along again!

Females are notoriously more catty (LOL, good pun!!! :) :rolleyes: )

I doubt that either of them are truly unhappy. They sound very much like human siblings. Their sister is wonderful company when mom is not home, but they want to do everything in their power to show mom just how HARD their sister makes their life. :p You know how it is....."MOM, she's touching me!!!" "MOM, she's looking at me!" MOM, I wanted that toy!" etc.


Just continue to reassure them both and give them ample attention. Things will be fine, I am sure.

Kirsten, I'm sorry to hear this.:( As you know I now have 4 boys and 2 girls and I've been having problems with my alpha male Storm. He's now been weaned off of clomiclam because it was just making him dopey and it wasn't
working very well for his aggressive behavior. I contacted Nancy and she said that Sunny is trying to become the alpha cat and I've seen him attacking Storm. Storm won't back down and doesn't want to be overthrown.

Lately I've noticed Storm being aggressive towards Starr, Sky, and Pearl. He's always been a very jealous cat and has learned to come to me more for attention. I try to give him a lot of alone time back in my bedroom but sometimes he won't stay here. I've been using feliway plugins and spray and it helps some what but it won't make all of his aggressiveness go away.

The older Storm's become the less tolerance he has towards his siblings. He and Pearl used to be very loving towards each other and she still doesn't understand what she did because she'd like to cuddle with him again but he won't allow it.:( Both he and Starr have an appointment with a holistic vet. I have to wait until Aug. 9th though becasue the doctor is booked. May be you should try taking Luna to a holistic vet. I hope that you'll be able to find something that will help calm Luna down. Good luck.:)

It sounds familiar around here too. Abby sounds a lot like Luna in that she doesn't do much without thinking it through first then gets spooked easily and rushes off. I'll have any cat in bed and Abby will jump up, see the others and jump off. It breaks my heart too because she's my sleeping buddy. Or she'll already be in bed and Pouncer, Nicki, or Flutter will jump up and she'll leave (especially Pouncer, she might stay if Harry or Allen come to bed while she's there). Heck, she'll leave if hubby gets into bed. This afternoon she and I were cozy watching tv. Hubby came over to ask a question. He just stood next to the bed and she was scared off. Just a sensitive nature I guess.

Then as you know, I have lots of issues with Pouncer being easily stressed. He's FINALLY healthy. For the first time what has to be 2 years. I know exactly what you're feeling. I wish I had an answer but I don't. I muddle through it myself.

My girls seem to have the most issues too.

Sophie is very timid and will take a long time to decide to come up and visit with me, come on the bed, or the sofa. If anyone jumps up, or a loud noise startles her, off she goes and you don't see her again for at least 30 minutes. Sophie is also one who will back up to the wall and spray. UGH!

Boris is another sensitive girl. She spends most of her time alone in the dining room or in the kitchen on top of the fridge. She and Sophie used to be the best of buddies and were together all the time, but since I moved into my house, they act like they hate each other, which I totally don't understand. Sophie was so caring and sweet with Boris when Boris was a kitten. She groomed her, and they slept cuddled up together all the time. Now it's all hisses and spits! Boris is also a pee-er, but normally it's the stove, the countertops, against the microwave.... sigh. I'm so tired of cat pee.

Finae is the loner. She really wants nothing to do with the other kitties. She's momma's girl. I've had her from the time she was about 6-8 weeks old. She gets annoyed with the other kitties, hates the fosters, and she will also do the territorial spraying. She loves when people come to visit and will be all over them and act like she never gets attention.

My foster Furbee is also a female and she seems to hate all the other cats as well. I think she's the one who poops outside the box most times. She really needs a home of her own so she will relax.

My boys are pretty good. Jorgie loves all other cats. He wants to meet every new cat that comes in and even when they hiss and spit at him he looks at me like "What did I do?! I'm the nice one!" and he'll just stay there until they decide to like him or chase the heck out of him to get him away!

Honey, the other male, doesn't seem to care for other kitties too much, especially other males when they want my attention. The more the male fosters wanted my attention, the closer Honey got when he was sitting on me. My lap, then my stomach, then my chest, my neck.... it was like, he was trying to get as close to me as possible to keep the others away! Of course now that most of those needy fosters are gone, he's no where to be found until it's dinner time. Typical male.... :p

I do think most boys are more agreeable but I think it just depends on the cat. My fosters have been WAY more behaved than my own cats. Sometimes I sit here thinking I'm adopting out the wrong cats! :o

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Originally Posted by aki

is it just me, or does it seem that female cats seem to have harder times getting along with other female cats? they seem more apt to be jealous too.

~ Aki :D

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I have had 3 male and 2 female cats. One female (Felicia) would not get along with any cat-male or female. The other female (Shadow) tried to get along with any other cat.

Thank you everyone for sharing your experiences with me! It's definitely good to hear that my household is not the only one with problems like this (but I'm sorry for all of you who experience the same!)

The last two days were okay and they didn't fight. I was at home most of the time, and I was very tired the entire weekend so I spend a lot of time just lying on my bed, reading or just relaxing - and both of them were with me on the bed, without growling and hissing. Especially Luna never left my side.

It hit me today that their latest behavior may have something to do with the fact that they were not allowed to enter my bedroom at nights. We had several heatwaves, last week the worst of all, and when it's too hot, I need to open the windows in my bedroom, and that means the door is closed for Luna and Lily. Usually they sleep in my bed at night, both of them. So I think this situation stresses them and this results in their behavior (which is not completely new, but definitely worse than usual).

BTW, I don't know about any holistic vets here, but I know the one Peggy has knows a lot about these things. Maybe he can prescribe some Bachflower remedies, it may be worth a try. They helped Peggy, too.

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Originally Posted by jenluckenbach

I doubt that either of them are truly unhappy. They sound very much like human siblings. Their sister is wonderful company when mom is not home, but they want to do everything in their power to show mom just how HARD their sister makes their life. You know how it is....."MOM, she's touching me!!!" "MOM, she's looking at me!" MOM, I wanted that toy!" etc.

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Jen, I hope you're right!! :)


Kirsten

Two of my males, Specs and Boo, have the same problem. Specs does exactly the same things as Lily does and Boo becomes so impatient! And if Boo sits next to me on the sofa, Specs has to jump up on the other side of me and actually put his arm around me like a man would! I had thought on more than one occasion of rehoming Specs because he was a newbie and I've had Boo since he was approx. 4 months old; he's now 15. But then, I'll come home from work and find the two of them sleeping side by side like buddies. So I've just learned that when Boo has had enough of Specs' theatrics, he lets him know or I do and then all is well. I do have both of them on Clomicalm, though.

Medusa, that's interesting!! This really sounds a lot like Luna and Lily, and it's most likely an attention thing, with a lot of jealousy included! Silly kitties!

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Originally Posted by jenn_librarian

Boris is another sensitive girl. She spends most of her time alone in the dining room or in the kitchen on top of the fridge. She and Sophie used to be the best of buddies and were together all the time, but since I moved into my house, they act like they hate each other, which I totally don't understand.

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Jenn, that is really strange. Maybe after the move, when they all had to claim their new territories, they couldn't agree about that? That is the only thing that makes some sense to me here... :confused:

Kirsten

My problem has never been the girls. It has always been the boys. Tex could be aggressive, and Monte is totally aggressive.

Kirsten, I wonder what goes on during the day. Could you use a tape recorder and see if there is anything? If it is true that it is only when you are home, then, I am thinking of something Cesar Milan says/does with dogs.

When Lilly stalks, and you intervene, you are "rewarding" her with attention- your attention. How do you break things up? Clap? Use some other sound device? Do you go to Luna, and comfort her?

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Kirsten, I wonder what goes on during the day. Could you use a tape recorder and see if there is anything?

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I was often wondering about this myself! I could try to set up my old webcam, it would be interesting to see what they are doing when I'm not at home!

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When Lilly stalks, and you intervene, you are "rewarding" her with attention- your attention. How do you break things up? Clap? Use some other sound device? Do you go to Luna, and comfort her?

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Well, so far, I avoided to interfere, I don't want any of them to feel I'm taking sides. I always thought they should work out their problems on their own. But during the last couple of days, when I felt too sorry for Luna, I caught myself that I comforted her, and tried to encourage her. But I always ignored Lily when she acted like that, I didn't want to give her any attention for this behavior...

Kirsten

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Originally Posted by aki

is it just me, or does it seem that female cats seem to have harder times getting along with other female cats? they seem more apt to be jealous too.

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Known as Female Feline Rivalry.
My friend is going through this now too. Two female cats, close in age (within 5 years) tend to have problems, even if they get along initially, or even for years, these things crop up with the girls.

I would try vanilla on the base of their tails. Both cats.
The brushing is another good idea.

I don't think your situation is really desperate, at this point. They just need to relearn some behavior, and change some habits and work it out.

Vanilla on the base of their tails? Never heard about that, but it could be worth a try...

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I don't think your situation is really desperate, at this point

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No, I don't think so either, but I'm sure it lessens at least Luna's life quality to a certain degree.

Kirsten

If Lily is about 3 or 4 now, in a feral cat community (if she survived) she would be establishing her own space, probably still connected to her mom, but already an experienced "queen" of her own brood... She is pushing to establish herself as a dominant personality. It doesn't matter all that much that she is fixed and has no kittensm she's still in the I'm as grown as you mom... so I get to be boss sometimes mode. Usually mother/daughters will work it out without too much drama. (My girls will bat each other and swear and then cuddle down...Except Amelia but that's another story.) Give them both plentyof love but I would advise petting Luna first and giving her attention that shows you (as the queen mother) support her postion.

barncat, that is making a lot of sense! Even though Luna is not Lily's biological mother, she had the mother role right from the start. There were several moments the past months when I got the impression Lily would claim the alpha status from Luna. Also, she may feel that Luna is not doing well with all her bladder problems.

Kirsten