What should Americans do then, to become more united?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
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What should Americans do then, to become more united?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace
Unions do not negotiate against anyone. I cannot imagine any negotiation that involves against. That defies the definition of "negotiations."
Public sector unions negotiate with the public sector administration - the school board, the mayor - the department of farming - whatever is the administrative body for which they work.
To suggest public sector unions negotiate against or even with the taxpayers is analogous to saying that private sector unions negotiate against - or with the consumer of the goods or services that union is involved with providing.
I have been involved in a few union campaigns. It has never been about money - initially. It is about the supervisors, the fairness with which the employees feel they are being treated.
I don't advocate unions. I have worked "on the other side" my whole career. I have made many speeches, home mailers, etc. about why it is better without a union. And I believe that in most cases. I have managed campaigns to defeat unions in elections and have won more than I lost.
I believe the Employee Free Choice Act is wrong and have written my congresspersons about it.
But why should public sector employees have less rights than private sector?
That is the heart of the issue.
I "unioned" for 30 years and it was a CF.
So, by not having any experience in the 'private sector' I humbly will keep my opinions to myself.;)
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http://images.cheezburger.com/comple...fc9084069e.jpg
Check it out.
MG wants to fight to the last drop of blood.
Hey, whatever happened to the hack that wanted the "Mother of all Battles?"
And if Hugo Chavez gets overthrown, will Sean Penn and Oliver Stone run down to rescue him?
Two questions....what does "CF" mean? And secondly - I thought you worked for KP? That would be the 'private sector.'Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
So as not to confuse people - the public sector - means working for a federal, state or local government.
Everything else is the private sector.
semantics.
semantics. Okay....up or down - just semantics.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Right left - just semantics...Use them interchangably...right?
So what does "CF" mean?
I don't see it as public sector ee's having less rights; just different rights. That's because my tax dollars pay their salary. They are providing services that keep our society running in an organized fashion - everything from collecting trash to the practice of law in the state's attorney's office. When they agree to work in the public sector, there are certain things they give up in exchange for what they gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
For example, I did agency work at a local hospital operated by the county health services bureau. They observed the federal holidays like Columbus Day, Veterans' Day and Dr. King's birthday - three additional days off with pay per employee per year. Their health benefit plan (for both employees and retirees) was waaaay more robust than private settings. They had access to purchasing plans for big-ticket items at deep discounts, theater and amusement park tickets, tax-free uniform purchasing (again at deep discounts), and I could go on from there. They were getting cheap prescription drugs long before Wal-Mart came up with their $4 generics. They had preferential hiring that the private sector doesn't get - they hardly ever hired from outside and they paid their existing employees gobs of overtime instead of hiring additional staff.
They could retire far earlier than the private sector. The manager to whom I reported was preparing to retire at 55. She would collect a full pension and go on to work for another 10-12 years in a completely different setting.
So ... in my mind ... public sector employee, you're working for me as a taxpayer. You chose that setting when you accepted the position. You might not realize just how good you have it as opposed to the rest of us. Take it or leave it.
Cassiesmom - I don't disagree. But I can tell you what my brother, who works for the federal government would say - Yes, government employees have many benefits - but the pay is lower. That is the trade off. He could make much more money working in the private sector - but he likes what he does and he likes that it benefits people.
You are paying the wages of every employee. When you buy an automobile you are paying the wages of the workers who make the cars. But a can of beans - you are paying the wages of the people who picked the beans and the people who canned them. When you make a phone call you are paying the wages of people who work for the phone company.
But I said it before and I'll say it again. If the public sector benefits are too high - negotiate with them - reduce them.
But why take away the right other employees have - the right to stand united in their relationship with their employer? They did not give that up - now some folks are trying to take away a right they had when they took the job. For political reasons.
By the way...do you know what "CF" means?
Cialis Factory????
誰是你真正想擁有的國家呢？？？？它必須是中國...對嗎？？？Quote:
Originally Posted by bonny
我認為貴國政府已錯失良機。
Darn you hit the nail right on the head Wombat. Our States & Federal government don't have a pot to pee in anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by wombat2u2004
Consolidated Freightways.
http://www.answers.com/topic/consolidated-freightways
cystic fibrosis?
cf. = compare (boy, I haven't typed that very often since I got out of school!)
chocolate frosting? :)
ES, you asked why take away a right other employees have? Is it because the governor thinks collective bargaining rights are not necessary for public sector employees, but the employees themselves do? I can't give you a better answer for that one. Could the federal government use the money they got back from the auto bail-out to help state governments? Would that work?
So if that buffoon of a governor thinks that equal pay for men and women is not necessary but the employees do think it is necessary...does that make the governor right?Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiesmom
The thing to remember - this is NOT about economics. The governor has made - since he took office - more tax breaks to corporations than the budget shortfall. In other words - he created it. This is about power. The unions have offered to go along with the economic consessions he seeks - if he will back off destroying the union. He will not.
POWER...you know the Fat Cats - taking it out of the working class.
or chocolate frosting...
or can't figure or ....
clueless faker....
I am just not sure...
Way to go RICHARD you stumped the lady who claims to never be wrong. Feel to good about it, Puck and I have done it too.
Good job though none the less.
That's it boys ;) Never back down from a Know-It-All ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
Nope. That's because they wear them on their heads. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonny
May I change the subject from politics to religion just for a moment? I am so excited, I might have an opportunity to sing in church choir during Lent. My church has Sunday evening services and during Lent they are especially nice. The choir is doing the Fauré Requiem for one of them. I learned part of it in high school, haven't sung it since; but here is an opportunity to do it again :) There is also a handbell choir being put together for Palm Sunday... we haven't had a bell choir at my church for 10 years, so that should be nice. Then Easter is sort of a bustle, children, families, music, lilies, more music, more lilies. I like Easter at our church.
I now return the subject back to politics.
Awesome!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiesmom
I stand by my assertion that PUBLIC employee unions negotiate against the taxpayer. Simply because when the union wins a concession, the taxpayer has to pay for it.
Then there is the fact that unions are HUGE contributors to political campaigns. The statistics say that a vast majority of those union donations go to guys with a "D" after their name. I am SURE that those "negotiations" are on the up and up. As if a governor/legislature/what have you is going to fight hard against what a union wants when the unions money helped to get them elected. What we are seeing now, all around the country, is the long term result of the utter joke that public employee union "negotiations" result in.
Something has to give. I feel for the honest union member. But what are they to do?
Public employee unions need to have different rules. There has to be some kind of a limit to what they can get out of a 'negotiation'. Otherwise, next time the political climate is full of people they helped get elected.....
:DCF = cluster f**k
I don't usually add much to this topic, but I do know what CF means. It was my favorite term while working with lawyers for 30 some years.
HAH !!!! That's still my favourite term when dealing with government. But yeah, I have to agree that lawyers are very CFish....hee hee. :D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
Think back to your days in the service Wom....Quote:
Originally Posted by wombat2u2004
What generally happens when a new Lieutenant tells a Sergeant HOW to do something?
:D
Oh the stories I could share.... But this is a family show. LOL
LOL,Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
CF is beyond a CJ.:eek::o;)
Yeah, that's a bit gruesome to discuss here. But it's sort of along the lines of the Sgt ripping off the Lt's arm and beating him to death with it. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
THis is very much against my better judgement, however, I feel forced by the tone of some of the comments to say something.........
Public sector unions.......yep, we're all about greed. I admit it.
The Unions in the postal service have nothing to do with the thousands of workers who used to sit in hold rooms waiting to sort mail.......off the clock. They were required to be there, not getting paid, waiting to be called on to work, at which point they'd clock in and go to work.
Nah, the 8 in 10 rule we have in our contract is just about greed.
They have nothing to do with protecting workers' bids. Management would never do something like hire someone based on an offered job then change the hours making it impossible for the new hire to follow their original plans......
Management would never refuse to post a needed job because they didn't like the person who was going to get it.....
No school board would ever fire a teacher just for personal pique....
No town would ever fire a highway worker because the worker ran for a political position and lost.....
Nope, government agencies are pure as the wind driven snow, and would never violate labor laws or ethical standards of conduct, and would never, EVER use their relatively unlimited funds to fight a worker in court over an improper firing or unsafe working conditions.
Patronage doesn't exist in government, and there's no need for standards of conduct to be contractually enforced. No government agency would EVER hire someone because of politics.....
Unions exist in the public sector for the same reason they exist in the private sector...........to avoid the abuse of power by management. Toss political power into the mix, and it can, and has, gotten ugly in short order. The APWU is in contract negotiations right now, and the wage scale is the least of my concerns.
What's going on in Wisconsin has nothing to do with excessive spending, the Union(s) have offered concessions in those areas. This is about breaking the collective bargaining rights for public employees nationwide.
This statement has been brought to you by a corrupt, greedy local union official, a fat cat living off of the money from dues paying workers. The $248.56 I get every quarter from the Union is the only reason I deal with the phone calls at home, people waiting for me at the time clock, negotiating with management only to see the deals broken minutes later, high blood pressure and headaches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
But Lady's Human-- can it be said that a labor union is also a power-holding entity? Isn't that the goal of negotiations, so that neither side ends up with nothing because the other side had all the power? We've moved away from child labor and horrendously unsafe working conditions that came about because of imbalances of power.
If this kind of stuff was what it was all about.... I would be behind you 100%. I cannot think of an honest person who would not support the rights of people to be safe in their workplace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
But it's not JUST about that and you know it.
How much do you contribute to your pension? How much do we? What happens if the economy tanks? Does your pension lose value? Is there a chance, that once you retire you might not have that pension?
Don't get me wrong.... I am in NO way jealous of what you have. I've been told that, that I am 'jealous' of the lavish benefits certain unions enjoy. Please...
If you can't tell.... Its the issue of forever pensions that boils my blood. At least private companies have to answer to their shareholders... Unless you are GM and get bailed out... By US!
Finally, don't take this personally, because its not.
AT the raw level of a local, this is entirely what it's all about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
Pension? You mean the prorated "annuity" I get under FERS? It's not much, look it up. My "pension" is a thrift saving plan, AKA a 401-K. If the market tanks, my TSP tanks, very simple. It's MY money, with an agency match, and I pay FICA as well. THe BS being fed to the public by the MSM is the way it USED to be under CSRS. FERS is a whole different breed of cat. In addition, my pension, such as it is, is subject to Congressional whims. If a corporation raids their pension fund, they're subject to federal action. If My employer raids the pension funds (to the tune of $149 BILLION dollars, look it up) it's just another day in DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
Again, WHAT forever pension? Where do I sign up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckstop31
We've moved away from unsafe working conditions? Tell that to the USPS employee in Nashville who was ordered to work in a dock area with broken hydraulic equipment, resulting in injury to an employee.Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiesmom
The APWU was trying to get the USPS to comply with arc-flash regulations for years, instead, after being ignored for years, the Union went to OSHA, resulting in millions in fines. People hammer Ford for their infamous decision regarding the Pinto (cheaper to pay the claims rather than to fix the problem) but your government makes the same decisions day after day regarding the workers.
Is a Union a power holding entity? Yes, but only in the sense that an individual cannot go to Congress and lobby to save their job..........but a Union can go to congress and be heard.
Yes, Puck we evil union officers lobby Congress.............as do corporations, and we have nowhere near the capital resources that a corporation does.
Thanks for the knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
What you get is fair it seems. I hope you did not take it on the chin too bad of late.... Its much different than the local teacher's union.
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Please stop it with the "evil" BS. I know you are not evil. I know the average working joe in a union is not evil. You sound like somebody else who posts here....
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Maybe you need to find another job? It sounds like you have a high frustration level. You said you have system engineer skills. Give me your resume. At my company, you get to be a peer with everyone, even the owners.
Can you speak AS400? I have an opportunity for just such a person.
I am NOT patronizing you. I'm serious. This still is America. If your job is killing you....
I've got almost zero problems with lobbyists. They are a natural part of any democratic system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
The problem is politicians who lets themselves take illegal 'perks'. But that is a whole different convo.
I don't do any work for labor. But, I do work in the employment arena (private, non union). To hear people say there is no 'need' for unions is simply, utterly, ridiculous. The public sector, with organized labour, still sets the bar for the employment arena.
It is a dream to say, "there is not a need for unions". A big, fat, dream. I represent the employer....not the employee. It is just so sad the things I hear on a weekly basis.
Go Union.
-signed a person that has never worked FOR a union, with no family member EVER being IN a union.
Sorry boys that I am not familiar with your vulgar "f" talk.
You see ... Sex is like money...people who really have it don't talk about it.
Do carry on!
You're one, twice, three times a lay-deh........
I just looked this up on Urban Dictionary-- some days this expression totally describes my work situation! Especially when the managers have been in lengthy meetings and aren't aware of what has occurred while they were gone. That's an apt description for those moments. Thanks, sasvermont for giving me a laugh today!Quote:
Originally Posted by sasvermont
I was thinking of the kind of extreme work conditions Upton Sinclair wrote about in "The Jungle". What a working person would have encountered in 1911, not 2011. Maybe I should have chosen a different phrase. My error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady's Human
I think I should stay out of this topic now. Don't want to end up saying something amiss. Off to Thursdays for cocoa.
SHARPS container!Quote:
Originally Posted by cassiesmom
exactly- the darn thing was too full and we were taking it out of the holder for environmental services to discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by RICHARD
That is easier to achieve when you have 10 or 20 employees.Quote:
At my company, you get to be a peer with everyone, even the owners.
Not so easy when you have 30,000 or even 100.
That is what unions do. Level the playing field. Put the worker bees on more of a peer level with management.
You are prepared to deny other employees the same working conditions you enjoy?
Who is denying them the same opportunity? It sure is not me. Those people made a choice to join the union. When you cast your lot in with the "collective", your enjoy the benefits and sometimes the negatives of being part of a 'collective'. Because remember, when you are part of a union, the union HAS to treat EVERYone equally, even the turds. Isn't there a saying about one bad apple? Also, the working conditions I 'enjoy' are not an accident. I busted my ass for a long time to be able to enjoy the freedom I do. And our little company did it ON OUR OWN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwina's Secretary
A former client of ours, a company that assembled truck frames. There was a year long battle with the shop unionizing. The company bent over backwards for their people. They told them the honest truth. The workers voted to unionize anyway. 3 months later the doors were shut.
But hey... I've got zero problems with private company union shops. And if a private company is treating their employees poorly, the workers need to do what they need to do. But sometimes, as was the case of the example I used above, the guy driving an air gun got it in his head somewhere that he deserves $35 an hour, fully paid medical and 3 weeks off a year. I wonder where he got that idea?
Economics is a cruel master I suppose. (I know, its not about the money.....)