New pup *hates* crate - doesn't listen

[BerberCarpet]

Greetings!

I have a beautiful new German Shepherd puppy.

She is nine weeks old yesterday (Today is Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2002), and her name is Jaetta.

I have had her two weeks tonight.


I am 28 years old, and just got my first house in July--so I could finally get a pup.

I have had dogs before, and have always had very good success with training them, at least to a come/sit/down/stay level, and I have been reading lots and lots, so I thought I was prepared for getting my puppy.

But it has been very very frustrating--much more than I counted upon.


Jaetta is beautiful, and comes from very good lines (Champion and Shutzhund titles all through her pedigree).

She is sometimes very attentive--her eyes will follow me around, and will be very interested in being with me.

Other times it is as if I am not there--except that I'm holding her back with the leash when she'd rather be wandering.


As I said in the topic subject, she really really hates her crate.

I tried introducing it to her slowly, like all the books say--letting her investigate it and not just shoving her in and slamming the door.

But she simply will not have anything to do with it.


Everytime I put her in the crate, she struggles to get out, and I have to do the "push and close" bit.

I know that this isn't helping, but she won't be tricked into following toys in anymore--she just looks at me and then tries to walk off.


I want to iterate that I love this puppy very much, and am very concerned about the relationship we'll have (I even took a 5-day weekend so that I could spend the first several days with her).

I have no kids, and this dog is to be the focus of my life away from church and work.

But I am getting super frustrated.


As I alluded to earlier, she simply ignores me sometimes.


When I take her out to potty, she'll pee right away usually, and then either chew on mulch or rocks or weeds or cigarette butts (not mine) or whatever else she can, or try with all her might to get away.


I work in a small ad agency, and am lucky enough to be able to bring her to work with me--she stays in her crate, but I let her out on a very regular schedule for eating/pooping/playing and so forth (She's almost potty trained, I think--at least, she has almost never gone inside, really--but I get the feeling it's only because I'm so diligent about her schedule and cause she comes to work with me. I think that if I were to ever leave her outside of her crate by herself she'd go inside without even thinking about it)


I take her for a very long walk *almost* daily (I admit I have missed a couple), and for a hard/long run 2 times a week (3 so far).


I'm feeding her Eukanuba, just like the breeder said to.


So she *should* be really happy, right?


But instead, she fights me over the crate, spends most of her time outside on potty breaks trying to dig up the grass or eat mulch and rocks, and simply will not come when I call her unless it suits her.


She also is starting to nip quite a bit.



And then other times she's as sweet as can be, like I said: very attentive and playful.


I am just going nuts here.


I know it is such a cliche for a new puppy owner to freak out and think his dog is somehow "messed up," and I feel really stupid for even asking, but it sure *feels* like I'm doing everything right.

And she's still the single most strong-willed dog I have ever come across.


I am not yet confortable with how to correct her.

I like the approach offered by the Monks of New Skeete (http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/). It's very "non-violent." It is based a whole lot on wolf-pack behaviour.

So mostly I try "corrective pops" with her leash, or sitting her and cuffing her under her chin briskly with the flat backside of four extended fingers (for intentional nipping/biting only), and have even tried rolling her onto her back and holding her there while I stare into her eyes for several seconds (she does not like this one bit).

But only that last technique seems to even phase her.

She seems not to even hear me if I say "No!"

I have tried all sorts of voice tones, but she just doesn't ever respond to a voice correction--I am constantly going to get her (well, she's usually on leash, so it's not a long trip) and having to physically stop her from doing whatever it is she's doing.

She *never* stops when I say.



Because of her "rock and mulch" eating fetish, I am frequently having to pull things out of her mouth.

This never goes well--she is quite possessive.

I have yet to get her to volunteer anything that she "has"--I always have to kneel behind her on the floor/ground, work her into position between my legs and pry her jaws open.

I'm sure that when she's 75 pounds (like her mom) this will not be possible, so I'd like to get this possesiveness corrected quickly.




Anyone who read through this novel and has any advice, it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Karen]

We have some wonderful people here who have all sorts of experience. Janetta sounds like a VERY smart girl. Like any "child" she will continue to test your boundaries, but you need to hold firm! YOU are in chargem she's just not used to that yet! I am sure Dixieland Dancer will chime in with concrete advice - she's been a breeder and done a lot of work with dogs, and there are others here, too who will be helpful.

Me, though, I'm just an ordinary human, so I've gotta ask - do you have a picture you could post? I bet she's beautiful! Even if she's wearing every bit of your patience away!

[AmberLee]

First, welcome to Pet Talk. I hope you'll enjoy it here as I do. It's a great community for pet lovers.

Second, at this moment I don't have any advice for you. I so wish to read Carrie's (another member) take on this. Do keep on with the care and establishing that YOU are the alpha in this pack. You're right -- it's important to start while she's young. Hope you get lots of comments on this.

P.S. Yes, I'd love to see photos, too. She sounds adorable.

[wolf_Q]

Look it's Nebo's twin! LOL. I have a siberian husky puppy, and the behavior from your pup is exactly like mine (except he really wasn't too bad to crate train). I'm sure people will remember me posting how frustrated I was with him many, many times. He's still frustrating, but he's better now (so don't loose hope!). I got him when he was 8 weeks old, and he's now 4 months old. He was an extremely bad biter, growled at me when I'd grab his collar/pick him up, snapped at other dogs a few times, didn't pay any attention to me, etc. Now, he is still a biter, but not nearly as bad, he rarely growls at me, loves other dogs (although he likes to play a bit too rough), and is MUCH better at paying attention to me! Put your dog in PUPPY KINDERGARTEN! That's what they (pet talkers) convinced me to do, and I'm very glad I did it.

For crate training, my dog didn't like it at first either. Now he sleeps in it at night in my room, and he will sleep in until 9:00 lol. Try giving your dog some of the toys that contain treats (kongs, etc.) to keep them amused when in the crate. Make sure you never put the dog in the crate as a punishment.

For getting the dog to look at you, at puppy kindergarten they teach you the "name game" which helps incredibly with getting the dogs attention. Say your dogs name, then lure them to your eyes with a treat (put the treat by the dogs nose and then hold it up by your eyes) When the dog makes eye contact, praise them and give them a treat. Make training fun! At first when I'd call Nebo to come he'd completely ignore me. Now I've been offering him treats, acting really exciting, and giving him big doggy loves when he comes to me--and he comes almost every time! (of course this is in a fenced back yard lol, I'm not trying it anywhere else...he *is* a husky after all...)

Nebo still really enjoys chewing and eating everything in sight, and especially grass, dirt, etc. in the yard like your pup. It will take a while for them to grow out of that. Teaching the "leave it" command does help though (when they actually listen to it, lol). Puppies will be puppies, and puppies will eat anything they can get those little needle sharp teeth into.

I tried all of those different techniques of punishing the dog too (holding them on their back, etc.) and it just made Nebo freak out and get even more angry with me. I was saying "No!" too, and when you say it so often, the dog tends to ignore it. Save the word "No" for when they do something really bad. Start saying "uh-uh" or "eh-eh" instead. It really gets their attention a lot better!

As for the possessiveness with toys, etc. teach the "give" command. Let your dog play with the toy, and then grab the toy gently with one hand, and offer a very tempting treat in the other hand, and say give. The dog should give up the toy to get the treat. Give the toy back right away. I'm still working on this with Nebo, he still needs practice.

Oh, and remember to not just punish the bad, always let the dog know when it is doing good also! They told us to say "Yes!" really loud and happy as a signal when the dog does something right (like the second the dog sits). Later on, you can use a clicker for this. Make the dog work for everything to show her who is in control. I always make Nebo sit and "wait" before I let him go through any doors. Don't let the pup get on your level (on the bed, or you on the floor...I know this is hard, lol...I still sit on the floor with the dogs)

I know how you feel when you say you thought you were prepared for this. I've had dogs all of my life too, and I read tons of books, etc. It's a lot harder then I could have imagined! My dog is *very* strong willed also. I think it's a part of both breeds. Sorry for the long-winded post here, your puppy troubles just reminded me so much of mine!! Good luck with Jaetta, and I too would LOVE to see pics of her! German Shepards are my second favorite breed of dog (next to huskies of course!) And a very big WELCOME TO PET TALK! If you ever want to vent out some puppy frustrations to somebody, send me a PM. I have plenty of them myself, Nebo can be the biggest pain in the butt!

I'm sure Candy (Dixieland Dancer) will give you some great advice, she really helped me out with my brat. I don't know if the day will ever come when he can be considered a "well-behaved" dog.....probably not, lol.

[lv4dogs]

Wolf Q, great advice (master of devil dogs LOL). I too reccomend a puppy kindergarten and then follow w/ basic obedience. You to be boss here. Kong toys are great you can stuff them w/ all sorts op goodies, kibble, buiscuits, leftovers, peanut butter, cream cheese, yougurt etcc. they can even be frozen for a nice hot day treat & they last a little longer frozen. They will keep your dog occupied for a while and provide mental stimulation.

[anna_66]

I too, like Amy (wolf_Q) have a Siberian Husky, her name is Roxey.
When we got her, she was the single most trying dog I had EVER had! She never wanted to listen, destroyed everything she could get her mouth on (only outside, not inside luckily), and was just a royal pain in the butt! She ALWAYS wanted to bite, ALL the time!She woke me up all hours of the night (absolutly REFUSED to be in her crate, she howled all night long). We finally let her stay in our room at night & just closed the door-she will finally sleeps all night (most of the time ) but she don't like me staying in bed. I've learned to get up at least by 7 am, if not earlier, this is just one thing I do for her because I love her.
She is now 1 yr & 4 mos & has done a complete turn-around (she still can do her fair share of tearing things up outside-mostly my new plants, but she had gotten considerably better with time)
I've taken her to 5 obedience classes, starting with puppy kindergarden, and we also went to an agility class. I know most of her obedience now is due to the classes. We had a wonderful teacher And for her age & breed she listens wonderfully!
Please whatever you do, take your dog to school, they love going & you will too! I can't imagine Roxey if she hadn't went. There is so many things I've learned...I could write a small book here! But the classes teach them to pay attention & look at you, it takes time (Roxey still isn't the best at that!), but be patient.
You could read all you could get your hands on, but it is all different when you bring your dog home!
I know Candy will have alot to tell you, so I'll leave that up to her She is the professional, but if you ever want to talk pm me!
Don't get frustrated (which I know you already are) it WILL get better, just practice, practice, practice. It WILL work!

[turner]

First of all I would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk. There are alot of excellect people here with great advice!

Now I must say.....do you have Deisel's twin!!!!!!

Deisel is a rotti/shepard mix. We got him when he was 2 1/2 mths old and you name it, he did it! He is a very very strong willed dog. Nick name is "Deisel the Devil Dog". I would consider taking Jaetta to puppy classes. That will help with the socialization process and you may get some other ideas on how to go about training. The possessive over things is common. They taught us to take the toy from the dog and say "thank you", wait a few seconds and give it back to them saying "good Deisel(name of your dog) and do that about 10 times each day. I was also taught to roll the dog on its back and straddle them, look at them to let them know you are the boss....well Deisel didn't accept that and freaked out! So I stopped doing that, and when ever I wanted him to respond to me, I would call his name and say whatever I wanted him to do...then if he didn't do it, I would go over to him and "make" him do it. Then give him a treat and say "good Deisel." It took awhile but he finally got the hint....I am the boss not you.

He is 2yrs old now and still tries to test his will with me. Just like kids I say. Hopefully some of this has helped you and again

WELCOME TO PET TALK!

[pupper-lover]

My Golden, Jake, was just like that. I thought I was going to go nuts. Jake's puppihood was, by far, the most high-stress puppihood I had ever experienced. Everyday was so frustrating. He tried to eat everything, ignored me most of the time, and would always do the opposite of what I wanted him to do. I was afraid that he would hate me, and I would hate him.

With consistant discipline, time, and recent classes with a trainer, he is now 1-1/2 years old, and an absolutely wonderful dog. I know that he loves me very much, and I him (of course). I couldn't imagine my life without him.

[lovemymaltese]

I don't have much advice but I wanted to welcome you to Pet Talk and hope that your luck gets better with the new pup.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Before I get to the reply, I would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk. It is a wonderful place to socialize with others who love their animals immensely!

Now... for my response. Sorry it is so lengthy but there is much to cover.

I think you are trying to hard and expecting too much from a NINE week old puppy. Especially if the pup was not highly socialized at the breeders with people (which may or may not of happened during the first 7 weeks of pups life). The weeks 8 through 12 should be a bonding period for you and pup so don't try to hard to get her to LISTEN perfectly. Focus on her getting to know you are there for her well being. There is plenty of time for the Listening to you to come.

Get the pup into a puppy kindergarten as soon as all shots are current. The need for socialization is so important until the pup reaches about 16 weeks old. You will also learn basic commands to teach the pup what you expect of her.

This does not mean you are not to train her during this period. That is just not the Primary focus.

Yes... she is probably a strong willed girl! I can relate since I have a very dominant female too. I know all too well the I'll do it when I feel like it attitude. Don't despair. This does not mean she can't be trained. It just means she needs extra patience on your part! My patience with my Dixie has paid off a thousand fold since she is the greatest dog I have ever had the pleasure of being owned by!

The best way to work with this is to let her know that NOTHING is free and you are the giver of all GREAT things in her life. Nothing is better for helping the dog understand what you want from it than employing the NOTHING for free theory. I hand feed kibble for breakfast and dinner when training a pup to know what I expect. I use the clicker theory. When the dog does correctly what it was asked to do then it is rewarded. If the dog does not do what I ask then it is not rewarded. This has to be done under the context that the dog UNDERSTANDS what is expected and it is your job to shape the behavior before withholding rewards for not doing it. The best method I have come across in the 25+ years I have been training is the clicker method. Karen Pryor is a veteran clicker trainer and has an excellent website that teaches the basics.
CLICK HERE to go to Karen's website. If you follow these techniques you will be able to teach all fundamental puppy training quickly, more efficiently and more thoroughly than using negative corrections such as pops and holds.

I find the pop and choke method of training to be very unneccessary, especially on a nine week old puppy!! Giving corrective pops to a puppy (or even an older dog) is negative and doesn't help to reinforce your bond with the pup. There are other more constructive ways of teaching the pup that biting is also a no no other than what you have described. And on this note I guess you can imagine that I am NOT an advocate of the Alpha roll on a puppy or dog. You may cause more damage than corrections with this type of technique.

So lets talk about what you can do! First we will start with puppy nipping. This is normal puppy behavior. The most effective way to get a puppy to stop nipping is to yell ouch loudly and turn around and ignore him for about 1/2 minute before playing with him again. By doing this you are teaching her what is an acceptable level of mouthing in order to keep the play going. Puppies love to play and start to learn what stops play as early as 4 weeks with their littermates. You are simulating this behavior similar to what she would get in the pack when you stop the play because her bite was too hard. DO NOT use physical corrections. Your goal is to raise a healthy secure pup who is confident and not to build a fear factor into her training.

I guess the next topic to cover is crating. Canines have a definite instinct to hide out in dens. If a dog has been properly crate- (or cage-) trained, the dog will often seek out this refuge when they are tired, stressed, or just want to be away from it all. How do you get your dog to accept the crate? You will feed your dog in or near her 'den'; provide soft, comfortable bedding for her 'den'; and have plenty of toys for her to play with or to chew nearby. Treats stuffed in toys inside the crate are another fun thing to get in the crate. Your objective is to make the crate a place the pup will want to go too! Use a command such as Kennel to associate the crate with. Initially you may need to go in the crate with the dog to show her that it is not a terrible place. Lay in there and give her some treats by hand. Leave the door open during this time. Play with her in there. Eventually she will lay down and you will comfort and soothe her. She should become relaxed and accepting of "her" spot! NEVER use the crate for discipline of any kind!!!

Other advantages of crates include:

Safety for your dog and house: Having your young or untrained dog in a cage may protect your house from dog-related destruction while you are away or are unable to watch her. A crate can prevent this type of disaster from happening. It can also prevent the young, unsupervised pup from hurting herself by chewing electric cords or becoming ill from something she ate during a destructive escapade.

It is a dog's natural inclination toward dens that makes a crate so useful to housetrain puppies. Since puppies will not normally soil in their living quarters, an appropriately-sized crate is extremely effective for helping puppies gain control over their bladders. This is providing you give the puppy several opportunities to relieve herself during the day. Crates help reduce the number of accidents you will have to clean up, and cut in half the time it takes to teach puppies where they are supposed to relieve themselves. When it comes to housebreaking a new puppy, there is nothing that makes the training go faster or easier than a puppy crate. Placed in a crate that is just the size they need to lay down and no more, housebreaking can be accomplished by the time the pup is 12 weeks old and able to hold her bladder. Until 12 weeks you can expect to have accidents if you give pup free reign of the house before they are taken out of the crate and directly escorted outside to Potty. Once a puppy has relieved it's self you can give free roam of the house (supervised of course) for about 1 1/2 hours. You will need to learn how often pup goes and the appropriate length of time to leave her out. If she falls asleep on the floor, immediately pick her up and place her in the crate again.

Have Patience! Your pup is just trying to figure everything out the same as you. You need to be consistent and patient and before you know it you will be best friends!

If you have any further questions, you can send me a PM if you like.

[KYS]

I too would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk.

I see you have gotten plenty of advice so I will keep quiet. : )

In my opinion GSD are one of the smartest and quick learning
breeds around. (well compared to mine for sure) lol
Enjoy your puppy and don't rush everything, remember
she is just a baby.

[turner]

I just have anothe comment to make. Dixieland Dancer, I agree with you that the "pop and choke" method is not neccessary. I was taught that in the puppy classes I went to and of course had to do them. When the novice class was over I went to another pup school that used "possitive" methods and found that Deisel responded alot better. I have never used the pop and choke method on Phoebe. I use treats and just position them when I want them to do something. I have read alot on the clicker method, could I start using that with Deisel and Phoebe or are they too old and would I maybe confuse them now with the changing of my teaching?

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by turner
I have read alot on the clicker method, could I start using that with Deisel and Phoebe or are they too old and would I maybe confuse them now with the changing of my teaching?

Are they still learning or established in their knowledge of commands? If they are still learning it is nothing more than incorporating a click for a positive response from you. They will catch on quickly. Clicks are more immediate and defining than a verbal acknowledgement. If they are established then stick with what you have already unless you want to improve their responses for some particular purpose such as agility work or competitive obedience.

[BerberCarpet]

It's gotten worse:

She's being really aggressive with me now.

She came up and bit me outta nowhere tonight.

We were in my bedroom, trying to "spool down" before I crate her up for bed.


I have a *huge* bedroom, with lots of open space.

She was walking around, trying to bite at the carpet, as always, and when she came near me I reached out to pet her and she bit me--hard.

I did the "yelp" thing, and said, "No bite, No." and then she nipped at me again, and then went down low and growled.


Well, I didn't like that.

I then looked away from her and crossed my arms up, to try and ignore her and she came right up and bit my left forearm--again, hard. Not like a little play nip.

A really aggressive bite.



So I yelped, said no bite and got up to get her tennis ball.

She followed me, which I thought was good, but as I held her ball up and jumped up to get it and fell on her tail--hard.

She yelped, and now her tail is crooked at the base.

But she won't let me get near her.

She still growls at me and tries to bite.


I was able to shut her in the room, go down and get a couple of ice cubes from the freezer and lure her into her crate in the bedroom with those.


And then I came downstairs and cried.


It was really scary.


They weren't play bites--she was trying to hurt me.


Or so it seems.


This was a couple of hours ago, and some of what I have read through tonight makes it seem as if she might be normal afterall--just very stubborn and still very young.


I don't know.


Thanks for all the welcomes, everyone.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to help.

[BerberCarpet]

Her tail is okay, by the way... I forgot to mention that when I went back up to check on her that she appears to be uninjured.

And she acted as if nothing had happened.


My parents came over and she was very "loud" with them--nipping and growling and such.


I'm very scared that she's mean.


Or that I just don't konw what I'm doing.

Or that she's too much dog for me and I don't konw what I'm doing.


:(