New pup *hates* crate - doesn't listen

[BerberCarpet]

Greetings!

I have a beautiful new German Shepherd puppy.

She is nine weeks old yesterday (Today is Wednesday, Sept. 25, 2002), and her name is Jaetta.

I have had her two weeks tonight.


I am 28 years old, and just got my first house in July--so I could finally get a pup.

I have had dogs before, and have always had very good success with training them, at least to a come/sit/down/stay level, and I have been reading lots and lots, so I thought I was prepared for getting my puppy.

But it has been very very frustrating--much more than I counted upon.


Jaetta is beautiful, and comes from very good lines (Champion and Shutzhund titles all through her pedigree).

She is sometimes very attentive--her eyes will follow me around, and will be very interested in being with me.

Other times it is as if I am not there--except that I'm holding her back with the leash when she'd rather be wandering.


As I said in the topic subject, she really really hates her crate.

I tried introducing it to her slowly, like all the books say--letting her investigate it and not just shoving her in and slamming the door.

But she simply will not have anything to do with it.


Everytime I put her in the crate, she struggles to get out, and I have to do the "push and close" bit.

I know that this isn't helping, but she won't be tricked into following toys in anymore--she just looks at me and then tries to walk off.


I want to iterate that I love this puppy very much, and am very concerned about the relationship we'll have (I even took a 5-day weekend so that I could spend the first several days with her).

I have no kids, and this dog is to be the focus of my life away from church and work.

But I am getting super frustrated.


As I alluded to earlier, she simply ignores me sometimes.


When I take her out to potty, she'll pee right away usually, and then either chew on mulch or rocks or weeds or cigarette butts (not mine) or whatever else she can, or try with all her might to get away.


I work in a small ad agency, and am lucky enough to be able to bring her to work with me--she stays in her crate, but I let her out on a very regular schedule for eating/pooping/playing and so forth (She's almost potty trained, I think--at least, she has almost never gone inside, really--but I get the feeling it's only because I'm so diligent about her schedule and cause she comes to work with me. I think that if I were to ever leave her outside of her crate by herself she'd go inside without even thinking about it)


I take her for a very long walk *almost* daily (I admit I have missed a couple), and for a hard/long run 2 times a week (3 so far).


I'm feeding her Eukanuba, just like the breeder said to.


So she *should* be really happy, right?


But instead, she fights me over the crate, spends most of her time outside on potty breaks trying to dig up the grass or eat mulch and rocks, and simply will not come when I call her unless it suits her.


She also is starting to nip quite a bit.



And then other times she's as sweet as can be, like I said: very attentive and playful.


I am just going nuts here.


I know it is such a cliche for a new puppy owner to freak out and think his dog is somehow "messed up," and I feel really stupid for even asking, but it sure *feels* like I'm doing everything right.

And she's still the single most strong-willed dog I have ever come across.


I am not yet confortable with how to correct her.

I like the approach offered by the Monks of New Skeete (http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/). It's very "non-violent." It is based a whole lot on wolf-pack behaviour.

So mostly I try "corrective pops" with her leash, or sitting her and cuffing her under her chin briskly with the flat backside of four extended fingers (for intentional nipping/biting only), and have even tried rolling her onto her back and holding her there while I stare into her eyes for several seconds (she does not like this one bit).

But only that last technique seems to even phase her.

She seems not to even hear me if I say "No!"

I have tried all sorts of voice tones, but she just doesn't ever respond to a voice correction--I am constantly going to get her (well, she's usually on leash, so it's not a long trip) and having to physically stop her from doing whatever it is she's doing.

She *never* stops when I say.



Because of her "rock and mulch" eating fetish, I am frequently having to pull things out of her mouth.

This never goes well--she is quite possessive.

I have yet to get her to volunteer anything that she "has"--I always have to kneel behind her on the floor/ground, work her into position between my legs and pry her jaws open.

I'm sure that when she's 75 pounds (like her mom) this will not be possible, so I'd like to get this possesiveness corrected quickly.

:)


Anyone who read through this novel and has any advice, it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[Karen]

We have some wonderful people here who have all sorts of experience. Janetta sounds like a VERY smart girl. Like any "child" she will continue to test your boundaries, but you need to hold firm! YOU are in chargem she's just not used to that yet! I am sure Dixieland Dancer will chime in with concrete advice - she's been a breeder and done a lot of work with dogs, and there are others here, too who will be helpful.

Me, though, I'm just an ordinary human, so I've gotta ask - do you have a picture you could post? I bet she's beautiful! :) Even if she's wearing every bit of your patience away!

[AmberLee]

First, welcome to Pet Talk. I hope you'll enjoy it here as I do. It's a great community for pet lovers.

Second, at this moment I don't have any advice for you. I so wish to read Carrie's (another member) take on this. Do keep on with the care and establishing that YOU are the alpha in this pack. You're right -- it's important to start while she's young. Hope you get lots of comments on this.

P.S. Yes, I'd love to see photos, too. She sounds adorable.

[wolf_Q]

Look it's Nebo's twin! LOL. I have a siberian husky puppy, and the behavior from your pup is exactly like mine (except he really wasn't too bad to crate train). I'm sure people will remember me posting how frustrated I was with him many, many times. He's still frustrating, but he's better now (so don't loose hope!). I got him when he was 8 weeks old, and he's now 4 months old. He was an extremely bad biter, growled at me when I'd grab his collar/pick him up, snapped at other dogs a few times, didn't pay any attention to me, etc. Now, he is still a biter, but not nearly as bad, he rarely growls at me, loves other dogs (although he likes to play a bit too rough), and is MUCH better at paying attention to me! Put your dog in PUPPY KINDERGARTEN! That's what they (pet talkers) convinced me to do, and I'm very glad I did it.

For crate training, my dog didn't like it at first either. Now he sleeps in it at night in my room, and he will sleep in until 9:00 lol. Try giving your dog some of the toys that contain treats (kongs, etc.) to keep them amused when in the crate. Make sure you never put the dog in the crate as a punishment.

For getting the dog to look at you, at puppy kindergarten they teach you the "name game" which helps incredibly with getting the dogs attention. Say your dogs name, then lure them to your eyes with a treat (put the treat by the dogs nose and then hold it up by your eyes) When the dog makes eye contact, praise them and give them a treat. Make training fun! At first when I'd call Nebo to come he'd completely ignore me. Now I've been offering him treats, acting really exciting, and giving him big doggy loves when he comes to me--and he comes almost every time! (of course this is in a fenced back yard lol, I'm not trying it anywhere else...he *is* a husky after all...)

Nebo still really enjoys chewing and eating everything in sight, and especially grass, dirt, etc. in the yard like your pup. It will take a while for them to grow out of that. Teaching the "leave it" command does help though (when they actually listen to it, lol). Puppies will be puppies, and puppies will eat anything they can get those little needle sharp teeth into.

I tried all of those different techniques of punishing the dog too (holding them on their back, etc.) and it just made Nebo freak out and get even more angry with me. I was saying "No!" too, and when you say it so often, the dog tends to ignore it. Save the word "No" for when they do something really bad. Start saying "uh-uh" or "eh-eh" instead. It really gets their attention a lot better!

As for the possessiveness with toys, etc. teach the "give" command. Let your dog play with the toy, and then grab the toy gently with one hand, and offer a very tempting treat in the other hand, and say give. The dog should give up the toy to get the treat. Give the toy back right away. I'm still working on this with Nebo, he still needs practice.

Oh, and remember to not just punish the bad, always let the dog know when it is doing good also! They told us to say "Yes!" really loud and happy as a signal when the dog does something right (like the second the dog sits). Later on, you can use a clicker for this. Make the dog work for everything to show her who is in control. I always make Nebo sit and "wait" before I let him go through any doors. Don't let the pup get on your level (on the bed, or you on the floor...I know this is hard, lol...I still sit on the floor with the dogs)

I know how you feel when you say you thought you were prepared for this. I've had dogs all of my life too, and I read tons of books, etc. It's a lot harder then I could have imagined! My dog is *very* strong willed also. I think it's a part of both breeds. Sorry for the long-winded post here, your puppy troubles just reminded me so much of mine!! Good luck with Jaetta, and I too would LOVE to see pics of her! German Shepards are my second favorite breed of dog (next to huskies of course!) :D And a very big WELCOME TO PET TALK! If you ever want to vent out some puppy frustrations to somebody, send me a PM. I have plenty of them myself, Nebo can be the biggest pain in the butt!

I'm sure Candy (Dixieland Dancer) will give you some great advice, she really helped me out with my brat. :D I don't know if the day will ever come when he can be considered a "well-behaved" dog.....probably not, lol.

[lv4dogs]

Wolf Q, great advice (master of devil dogs LOL). I too reccomend a puppy kindergarten and then follow w/ basic obedience. You to be boss here. Kong toys are great you can stuff them w/ all sorts op goodies, kibble, buiscuits, leftovers, peanut butter, cream cheese, yougurt etcc. they can even be frozen for a nice hot day treat & they last a little longer frozen. They will keep your dog occupied for a while and provide mental stimulation.

[anna_66]

I too, like Amy (wolf_Q) have a Siberian Husky, her name is Roxey.
When we got her, she was the single most trying dog I had EVER had! She never wanted to listen, destroyed everything she could get her mouth on (only outside, not inside luckily), and was just a royal pain in the butt! She ALWAYS wanted to bite, ALL the time!She woke me up all hours of the night (absolutly REFUSED to be in her crate, she howled all night long). We finally let her stay in our room at night & just closed the door-she will finally sleeps all night (most of the time:rolleyes: ) but she don't like me staying in bed. I've learned to get up at least by 7 am, if not earlier, this is just one thing I do for her because I love her.
She is now 1 yr & 4 mos & has done a complete turn-around (she still can do her fair share of tearing things up outside-mostly my new plants, but she had gotten considerably better with time)
I've taken her to 5 obedience classes, starting with puppy kindergarden, and we also went to an agility class. I know most of her obedience now is due to the classes. We had a wonderful teacher:D And for her age & breed she listens wonderfully!
Please whatever you do, take your dog to school, they love going & you will too! I can't imagine Roxey if she hadn't went. There is so many things I've learned...I could write a small book here! But the classes teach them to pay attention & look at you, it takes time (Roxey still isn't the best at that!), but be patient.
You could read all you could get your hands on, but it is all different when you bring your dog home!
I know Candy will have alot to tell you, so I'll leave that up to her:) She is the professional, but if you ever want to talk pm me!
Don't get frustrated (which I know you already are;)) it WILL get better, just practice, practice, practice. It WILL work!

[turner]

First of all I would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk. There are alot of excellect people here with great advice!

Now I must say.....do you have Deisel's twin!!!!!!

Deisel is a rotti/shepard mix. We got him when he was 2 1/2 mths old and you name it, he did it! He is a very very strong willed dog. Nick name is "Deisel the Devil Dog". I would consider taking Jaetta to puppy classes. That will help with the socialization process and you may get some other ideas on how to go about training. The possessive over things is common. They taught us to take the toy from the dog and say "thank you", wait a few seconds and give it back to them saying "good Deisel(name of your dog) and do that about 10 times each day. I was also taught to roll the dog on its back and straddle them, look at them to let them know you are the boss....well Deisel didn't accept that and freaked out! So I stopped doing that, and when ever I wanted him to respond to me, I would call his name and say whatever I wanted him to do...then if he didn't do it, I would go over to him and "make" him do it. Then give him a treat and say "good Deisel." It took awhile but he finally got the hint....I am the boss not you.

He is 2yrs old now and still tries to test his will with me. Just like kids I say. Hopefully some of this has helped you and again

WELCOME TO PET TALK!

[pupper-lover]

My Golden, Jake, was just like that. I thought I was going to go nuts. Jake's puppihood was, by far, the most high-stress puppihood I had ever experienced. Everyday was so frustrating. He tried to eat everything, ignored me most of the time, and would always do the opposite of what I wanted him to do. I was afraid that he would hate me, and I would hate him.

With consistant discipline, time, and recent classes with a trainer, he is now 1-1/2 years old, and an absolutely wonderful dog. I know that he loves me very much, and I him (of course). I couldn't imagine my life without him. :D

[lovemymaltese]

I don't have much advice but I wanted to welcome you to Pet Talk and hope that your luck gets better with the new pup.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Before I get to the reply, I would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk. :D It is a wonderful place to socialize with others who love their animals immensely!

Now... for my response. Sorry it is so lengthy but there is much to cover.

I think you are trying to hard and expecting too much from a NINE week old puppy. Especially if the pup was not highly socialized at the breeders with people (which may or may not of happened during the first 7 weeks of pups life). The weeks 8 through 12 should be a bonding period for you and pup so don't try to hard to get her to LISTEN perfectly. Focus on her getting to know you are there for her well being. There is plenty of time for the Listening to you to come.

Get the pup into a puppy kindergarten as soon as all shots are current. The need for socialization is so important until the pup reaches about 16 weeks old. You will also learn basic commands to teach the pup what you expect of her.

This does not mean you are not to train her during this period. That is just not the Primary focus.

Yes... she is probably a strong willed girl! I can relate since I have a very dominant female too. I know all too well the I'll do it when I feel like it attitude. Don't despair. This does not mean she can't be trained. It just means she needs extra patience on your part! My patience with my Dixie has paid off a thousand fold since she is the greatest dog I have ever had the pleasure of being owned by!

The best way to work with this is to let her know that NOTHING is free and you are the giver of all GREAT things in her life. Nothing is better for helping the dog understand what you want from it than employing the NOTHING for free theory. I hand feed kibble for breakfast and dinner when training a pup to know what I expect. I use the clicker theory. When the dog does correctly what it was asked to do then it is rewarded. If the dog does not do what I ask then it is not rewarded. This has to be done under the context that the dog UNDERSTANDS what is expected and it is your job to shape the behavior before withholding rewards for not doing it. The best method I have come across in the 25+ years I have been training is the clicker method. Karen Pryor is a veteran clicker trainer and has an excellent website that teaches the basics.
CLICK HERE (http://www.karenpryor.com/training/index.htm?salesitem=default_s&PHPSESSID=09112b1ae564b4ec4a65cfdf17f1f77c) to go to Karen's website. If you follow these techniques you will be able to teach all fundamental puppy training quickly, more efficiently and more thoroughly than using negative corrections such as pops and holds.

I find the pop and choke method of training to be very unneccessary, especially on a nine week old puppy!! Giving corrective pops to a puppy (or even an older dog) is negative and doesn't help to reinforce your bond with the pup. There are other more constructive ways of teaching the pup that biting is also a no no other than what you have described. And on this note I guess you can imagine that I am NOT an advocate of the Alpha roll on a puppy or dog. You may cause more damage than corrections with this type of technique.

So lets talk about what you can do! First we will start with puppy nipping. This is normal puppy behavior. The most effective way to get a puppy to stop nipping is to yell ouch loudly and turn around and ignore him for about 1/2 minute before playing with him again. By doing this you are teaching her what is an acceptable level of mouthing in order to keep the play going. Puppies love to play and start to learn what stops play as early as 4 weeks with their littermates. You are simulating this behavior similar to what she would get in the pack when you stop the play because her bite was too hard. DO NOT use physical corrections. Your goal is to raise a healthy secure pup who is confident and not to build a fear factor into her training.

I guess the next topic to cover is crating. Canines have a definite instinct to hide out in dens. If a dog has been properly crate- (or cage-) trained, the dog will often seek out this refuge when they are tired, stressed, or just want to be away from it all. How do you get your dog to accept the crate? You will feed your dog in or near her 'den'; provide soft, comfortable bedding for her 'den'; and have plenty of toys for her to play with or to chew nearby. Treats stuffed in toys inside the crate are another fun thing to get in the crate. Your objective is to make the crate a place the pup will want to go too! Use a command such as Kennel to associate the crate with. Initially you may need to go in the crate with the dog to show her that it is not a terrible place. Lay in there and give her some treats by hand. Leave the door open during this time. Play with her in there. Eventually she will lay down and you will comfort and soothe her. She should become relaxed and accepting of "her" spot! NEVER use the crate for discipline of any kind!!!

Other advantages of crates include:

Safety for your dog and house: Having your young or untrained dog in a cage may protect your house from dog-related destruction while you are away or are unable to watch her. A crate can prevent this type of disaster from happening. It can also prevent the young, unsupervised pup from hurting herself by chewing electric cords or becoming ill from something she ate during a destructive escapade.

It is a dog's natural inclination toward dens that makes a crate so useful to housetrain puppies. Since puppies will not normally soil in their living quarters, an appropriately-sized crate is extremely effective for helping puppies gain control over their bladders. This is providing you give the puppy several opportunities to relieve herself during the day. Crates help reduce the number of accidents you will have to clean up, and cut in half the time it takes to teach puppies where they are supposed to relieve themselves. When it comes to housebreaking a new puppy, there is nothing that makes the training go faster or easier than a puppy crate. Placed in a crate that is just the size they need to lay down and no more, housebreaking can be accomplished by the time the pup is 12 weeks old and able to hold her bladder. Until 12 weeks you can expect to have accidents if you give pup free reign of the house before they are taken out of the crate and directly escorted outside to Potty. Once a puppy has relieved it's self you can give free roam of the house (supervised of course) for about 1 1/2 hours. You will need to learn how often pup goes and the appropriate length of time to leave her out. If she falls asleep on the floor, immediately pick her up and place her in the crate again.

Have Patience! Your pup is just trying to figure everything out the same as you. You need to be consistent and patient and before you know it you will be best friends! :D

If you have any further questions, you can send me a PM if you like.

[KYS]

I too would like to welcome you and Jaetta to Pet Talk.

I see you have gotten plenty of advice so I will keep quiet. : )

In my opinion GSD are one of the smartest and quick learning
breeds around. (well compared to mine for sure) lol
Enjoy your puppy and don't rush everything, remember
she is just a baby. :)

[turner]

I just have anothe comment to make. Dixieland Dancer, I agree with you that the "pop and choke" method is not neccessary. I was taught that in the puppy classes I went to and of course had to do them. When the novice class was over I went to another pup school that used "possitive" methods and found that Deisel responded alot better. I have never used the pop and choke method on Phoebe. I use treats and just position them when I want them to do something. I have read alot on the clicker method, could I start using that with Deisel and Phoebe or are they too old and would I maybe confuse them now with the changing of my teaching?

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by turner
I have read alot on the clicker method, could I start using that with Deisel and Phoebe or are they too old and would I maybe confuse them now with the changing of my teaching?

Are they still learning or established in their knowledge of commands? If they are still learning it is nothing more than incorporating a click for a positive response from you. They will catch on quickly. Clicks are more immediate and defining than a verbal acknowledgement. If they are established then stick with what you have already unless you want to improve their responses for some particular purpose such as agility work or competitive obedience.

[BerberCarpet]

It's gotten worse:

She's being really aggressive with me now.

She came up and bit me outta nowhere tonight.

We were in my bedroom, trying to "spool down" before I crate her up for bed.


I have a *huge* bedroom, with lots of open space.

She was walking around, trying to bite at the carpet, as always, and when she came near me I reached out to pet her and she bit me--hard.

I did the "yelp" thing, and said, "No bite, No." and then she nipped at me again, and then went down low and growled.


Well, I didn't like that.

I then looked away from her and crossed my arms up, to try and ignore her and she came right up and bit my left forearm--again, hard. Not like a little play nip.

A really aggressive bite.



So I yelped, said no bite and got up to get her tennis ball.

She followed me, which I thought was good, but as I held her ball up and jumped up to get it and fell on her tail--hard.

She yelped, and now her tail is crooked at the base.

But she won't let me get near her.

She still growls at me and tries to bite.


I was able to shut her in the room, go down and get a couple of ice cubes from the freezer and lure her into her crate in the bedroom with those.


And then I came downstairs and cried.


It was really scary.


They weren't play bites--she was trying to hurt me.


Or so it seems.


This was a couple of hours ago, and some of what I have read through tonight makes it seem as if she might be normal afterall--just very stubborn and still very young.


I don't know.


Thanks for all the welcomes, everyone.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to help.

[BerberCarpet]

Her tail is okay, by the way... I forgot to mention that when I went back up to check on her that she appears to be uninjured.

And she acted as if nothing had happened.


My parents came over and she was very "loud" with them--nipping and growling and such.


I'm very scared that she's mean.


Or that I just don't konw what I'm doing.

Or that she's too much dog for me and I don't konw what I'm doing.


:(

[trisha0503]

Hi,

First of all, welcome to Pet Talk! I feel so bad for you :( I am not very much of help, but I wish you well... Hope things get better with your puppy... Feel free to vent ;) that's ok and we're here to listen.. I feel bad for not being able to give you advice... I just had my puppy for a year, so I'm still inexperienced...

Keep us posted... I wish you good luck... We're happy to have you here !:)

[BerberCarpet]

Pics.

:)

I guess.. i'm going to attatch a file, anyway.

I guess that'll do it?

This pic is from the night after I got her--she was 7 weeks and 1 day old.

Looking at those pictures now, it would seem that she has really grown!


I bet she's gained 8 pounds since this pic.

[Dixieland Dancer]

If she senses you are afraid of her then she will try to be the Alpha over you. You need to let her know that that is unacceptable behavior. I do the ouch thing if she is nipping in play. I will actually put the dog in a time out if it is done in a manner that is not nipping in play (which I think you described).

Take the dog and leash her to a door knob or somewhere where you can tie her up. Not the crate since you are crate training. When she settles down then you can go back to her. I would also really start to hand feed and do basic commands before she gets anything. Even her tennis balls and toys! You can even get her to sit before she goes out for a walk. NOTHING in this pups life should be free! She needs to learn that YOU control the situations!

At this age the worse thing you can do is to let her sense you are afraid. Get her into a puppy kindergarten class immediately. The instructors of most classes are very knowledgeable and may be able to offer additional advice. Make sure it is a positive based class and not one that uses pops and chokes. Pops and chokes on a dog who shows aggressive tendencies can back fire on you especially if they are not done correctly.

[KYS]

Please take Dixieland Dancer's advise.
I used the methods below with
my Rocky, because as a puppy he had a attitute problem.
(he never growled or bit me)
Also, Rocky did not trust humans as a puppy, it
took time and love for me to earn his trust.
Puppy kindergarten sounds like a great idea,
and than continue with formal positive obedience training
when she is old enough.

>>>>>>>

Dixieland Dancer:
I would also really start to hand feed and do basic commands before she gets anything. Even her tennis balls and toys! You can even get her to sit before she goes out for a walk. NOTHING in this pups life should be free! She needs to learn that YOU control the situations!

[Karen]

Don't give up, she's not "mean," but she is very smart and strong-willed. Just keep remembering YOU are in charge, and I agree - Puppy Kindergarten ASAP! It would be fun for both of you.

By the way, she is adorable!!!!!!!! If you can make it through these nest few months, you're gonna have a best friend for years and years and years!

[BerberCarpet]

Another pic


The green is her tatoo... everyone always asks.


Most of it will wear off.

:)

[Dixieland Dancer]

She is beautiful! Please keep us posted on her progress. And I agree with Karen.... after yo get this issue resolved you will have the best friend for life!

[Aspen and Misty]

Sounds like you have a normal puppy :D

My Chewy ( 6 month old Aussie mix) was so aggresive till abotu a month ago! He would attacke our Sheltie Teddy for no reson. For awile there I had deced I would never get another puppy EVER! Not if they are going to be like Chewy! Geesh he bite me, he ignored me, he hated me unless I had food, he hated his crate, he never listned, he was just an all around little devil. But you know what made it worth while in the end? The whining from the other side of the door when I was in a room and he wasn't, the look of sadness when I locked him in his crate, his happy puppy bark when I came home, him following me, always haveing to sleep by me on the bed at nigth, his love for me is what I beleave got us through. Your pup, I promise will grow out of her bad habits that you hate with a little bit of help. Chewy rarly nips any more, He has stoped destroying chairs and coffie tabls and has turned into the perfect dog I have always wanted. A little loud sometimes. But he is a cutie! Just rember she will mellow down and things will get alot better.

Ashley

[BerberCarpet]

Update:

I have started hand-feeding Jaetta.

This appears to be helping already. She's nipping less hard when she does nip, and she's doing it less often (this is after only 3 hand-fed meals!).

I am putting her in a time-out, tied to the door knob from the kitchen to the pantry when she nips or tries to steal food from my "bisquette buddy" treat bag.

I got treats and a clicker, and have started clicker training.

She can sit now!

Woo hoo!


I signed her up for her first vet visit, and after she gets her shots, she starts puppy kidnergarten Oct 6.


(she's in time out right now, heh. whine whine whine)



I'm feeling much better now.

I had convinced myself that she was "bad" and that I wasn't ready for this, and was ready to take her back the breeder (not that they'd allow that), but now I think i can do this.

I really appreciate you all taking the time to encourage me.

I'm sure it won't be the last time I get frustrated with her, but at least now I know what she's doing is normal.


:)

Thanks!

[KYS]

OH NO! She was not BAD! she was just testing the
waters to see what she could get away with.
That's what strong minded pups do.
So glad you are feeling much better and I
can't wait to hear her puppy kindergarten
stories in Oct. : )

[AmberLee]

Wow, I just saw her photo. She is adorable! So glad things are starting to come around. Do keep us posted on her progress.

[carrie]

Firstly, welcome to Pet Talk.
Secondly - never feel silly for asking questions or for suggestions - it is the sign of an alert mind and a caring nature.
Thirdly - I haven't read what others have written yet so please forgive me everyone if I repeat or go against what you said = this is just my opinion and it is better done fresh.

OK....Here we go.....

The first thing I would advise you to do is to forget about the crate at home - by all means use it in the car and , if you have to, at work. You will probably find that a blanket or bed will work better for everyone.

You say that your pup has Shutzhund winners in her blood - that almost certainly means she has European blood in her and it makes her an easier dog, if anything - once you understand how she is behaving towards you.

You say that she spends a lot of time ignoring you, especially when you are trying to get her attention - either to reprimand or praise her or get her to comply to a command....- by ignoring you she is trying to force you to pay her more attention - she is telling you that she sees herself as the boss and so does not need to listen to you - you need to establish yourself as the unquestioned boss! Nothing happens until you are happy with the way the pup is behaving. Allow her to figure this out....

This pup is ten weeks and is showing nothing unusual - but if you do not control it now - you are right - you will never be in charge!

The biggest weapon you have is to turn what the pup is doing to you around so that when the pup makes demands you ignore it - no need for force or anger - just ignore when the pup demands.


This dog will be the dog of your life - she has every sign of it - get in there early and control it -

Leave the dog at home until you are in total control

Leave a short leash on the dog when you are at home

Allow five minute breaks for toilet every 2-3 hours - let the puppy out, look at your watch and turn your back until it is time to go inside and then call pup and go inside. If pup refuses to come inside then leave her on her own for five minutes, go in and shut the door, resist the temptation to peek through windows. Go back and call her again - if she still refuses leave her for seven minutes - carry this on until she does come to you then calmly praise her. This is all about acting - you must not raise your voice or appear upset in any way - stay as calm as possible and it will work - you MUST keep it up though.

Never play tugging games with this pup - if you throw a ball or rope for it to chase then you do not pick it up again until the dog has left it - you sooooo don't hang around waiting for it to drop it.....

I have written you a load....here are the best bits to remember


When the pup is on the blanket you have given it then you make it's meal - next to the dog bowl you put a plate for you - put half a biscuit, a grape, anything you like on it! Eat what is on th e plate....finish chewing...put your plate in the sink...then put thedog food down - leave it for fifteen minutes then pick it up, even if the pup hasn't eaten or finished it.

Every time you leave the room and come back into it ignore all advances from the pup - this takes practice but is worth it - ignore for at least ten minutes AFTER the pup has given up demanding attention and left you alone to lie down. This means no talking to her and no looking at her at all. Once she has settled down time the ten minutes and then you can call her to you for a fuss and a cuddle.

Never allow this pup to pull you when she is on a lead - simply stop as soon as she begins to pull and walk backwards three or four steps encouraging her to follow you. She will soon get the message that it takes a lot longer to get there when she pulls!

If the pup nips you then shout "OW!" very loudly and instantly turn your back on pup for fifteen minutes - go on with something else and ignore her totally.

Do not let her have any toys except when you are leaving her at home on her own. Pick these up when she goes to her blanket or bed when you get home.

Lastly - do not let this pup sleep in your bed room.....

Give these things a try for a week and if you can be consistent you will see a difference, I promise!

[Karen]

Glad you are feeling better, as we said - "She's not Bad, she's a Puppy!"

She's so pretty, and if you're seeing a difference already then she is every bit as smart as I figured she would be!

Read Carrie's post - I knew this one would lure Carrie in, too - and keep us updated!

[wolf_Q]

Oh Jaetta is just gorgeous! Thanks for sharing the pics!! :D Feel free to show us more any time you like!

Nebo scared me a few times with his biting too. When I'd pick him up, or grab is collar, or anything....he'd turn around, growl, and bite me really hard! He did plenting of biting that was not play biting at all. He also went after Reggie and Smokey a few times for no reason too (most of the time it was play, but a couple of times it wasn't). Now, he still bites, but not nearly as much, and it's always when he's playing...not just being vicious. He's much nicer to Reggie and Smokey now too, he normally just rubs up against them (though sometimes he likes to shove them against walls lol). They still hate his guts. He's better at leaving them alone though, but he is still very protective of his food (with dogs, not with humans).

I'm glad you and Jaetta are feeling better now! I was really convinced that Nebo was "bad" too and that I had made a mistake in getting him.........I didn't think his aggressiveness was normal at all. He's just a really strong-willed little guy.

[BerberCarpet]

Originally posted by carrie
The first thing I would advise you to do is to forget about the crate at home...


So I just let her run at home?

I cannot imagine what she'd do to my cats when I wasn't there if she wasn't crated up.

Even if I just go out to get the mail or something, she has time to pee or chase a cat around.

Could you explain more?



Originally posted by carrie
- by all means use it in the car and , if you have to, at work. You will probably find that a blanket or bed will work better for everyone.


On this again... ;)

How to keep her nearby at night?

Do leash her to the bed somehow?

Or am I missing it completely?




Originally posted by carrie
You say that your pup has Shutzhund winners in her blood - that almost certainly means she has European blood in her...


Yes.

Her parents were brought over from Germany just recently.

Daddy: http://www.vdhollenburg.com/pedigree.asp?ID=115
Mommy: http://www.vdhollenburg.com/pedigree.asp?ID=117




Originally posted by carrie
... and it makes her an easier dog, if anything - once you understand how she is behaving towards you.


Yikes!

I can't image her being any harder.

Amazing.





Originally posted by carrie
.- by ignoring you she is trying to force you to pay her more attention - she is telling you that she sees herself as the boss and so does not need to listen to you - you need to establish yourself as the unquestioned boss! Nothing happens until you are happy with the way the pup is behaving. Allow her to figure this out....

This pup is ten weeks and is showing nothing unusual - but if you do not control it now - you are right - you will never be in charge!

The biggest weapon you have is to turn what the pup is doing to you around so that when the pup makes demands you ignore it - no need for force or anger - just ignore when the pup demands.



Okay, this makes sense "on paper", but how to put it into practice?


Say when it's potty time while we're at work.

The place we can walk to to potty is 1 city block up the street from my office.

Not far, but still, it's a walk nonetheless.

And she is very stubborn on the leash--she'll forge ahead or stop and sniff or eat a rock.

And I try to stop and walk the other way, and all that, but she will go back and forth, back and forth, forging both ways--and I don't have time for that: I need to get back to work.

The other alternative, of course, is to leave her at home, but then she's there either 8 hours (not really a choice) or I'm driving 30 minutes there and back just to let her out to pee once during the day and have to rush home (also not good).


So there's that.

What to do?


If I work with every forging ahead on leash we'd never get anywhere--and I will be asked not to bring my pup in anymore.

Is there a secret?




Originally posted by carrie
This dog will be the dog of your life - she has every sign of it - get in there early and control it -

Leave the dog at home until you are in total control


Do you mean don't take her to work?

Like I said, that' be worse, wouldn't it?




Originally posted by carrie
Leave a short leash on the dog when you are at home


This I usually do.

But why?




Originally posted by carrie
Allow five minute breaks for toilet every 2-3 hours - let the puppy out, look at your watch and turn your back until it is time to go inside and then call pup and go inside.


If pup refuses to come inside then leave her on her own for five minutes, go in and shut the door...


I don't have a fence.

Should I get a tie-out for the yard?

If so, how long?




Originally posted by carrie
Never play tugging games with this pup...


Yup, this I already don't do.




Originally posted by carrie
- if you throw a ball or rope for it to chase then you do not pick it up again until the dog has left it - you sooooo don't hang around waiting for it to drop it.....


Well, this isn't really a problem: when I throw a ball, she just looks at me and may--or may not--care.

She'll rarely chase it, and even more rarely pick it up.


This changed overnight from when I picked her out.

The first night and day she would actually fetch.

?



Originally posted by carrie
When the pup is on the blanket you have given it then you make it's meal - next to the dog bowl you put a plate for you - put half a biscuit, a grape, anything you like on it! Eat what is on th e plate....finish chewing...put your plate in the sink...then put thedog food down - leave it for fifteen minutes then pick it up, even if the pup hasn't eaten or finished it.


I don't really understand this.

Could you re-explain what you mean here?



Originally posted by carrie
Every time you leave the room and come back into it ignore all advances from the pup...


Pups are supposed to make advances?

Mine only looks up if I have a treat.




Originally posted by carrie
this takes practice but is worth it - ignore for at least ten minutes AFTER the pup has given up demanding attention and left you alone to lie down...


Yah, again, this just doesn't happen:

She never demands attention--unless you count biting me.

Does that count?

She seems to start to get "bite-ee" on two kinds of occasions:

If she's been espcially stubbourn on her leash, and I have had time to go back and forth trying to get her to not pull--then she'll really bite at my pant legs a lot. (and my hands and arms too, if I reach down there)


And also whenever she's really excited, usually when I stop her from chasing one of the cats.

but sometimes it's just outta nowhere--she'll be biting me.

?


Other than that, she does't really demand my attention.


If we're home in the evening she is either chasing the cat or biting me.

I try to get her to play with her Kong or her bone or rope toy, but mostly she walks around, tries to pull the carpet up with her teeth, chases the cats and bites me if I stop her from doing any of the above.

:(




Originally posted by carrie
This means no talking to her and no looking at her at all. Once she has settled down time the ten minutes and then you can call her to you for a fuss and a cuddle.


Now: sometimes she does settle down, but she *never* wants to cuddle.

She'll whimper and fight if you try and hold her--eyes flailing around and claws everwhere.

She simply will not be calmed.

Odd?




Originally posted by carrie
Never allow this pup to pull you when she is on a lead - simply stop as soon as she begins to pull and walk backwards three or four steps encouraging her to follow you. She will soon get the message that it takes a lot longer to get there when she pulls!


I hope so..

So far she seems pretty content to pull... lay down...pull...lay down...pull...lay down...pull...lay down.

She can go 15 minutes in the same 5 foot place--back and forth, back and forth.

As soon as I change direction, she'll either just plant down and not move for anything, or pull the new direction.



Originally posted by carrie
If the pup nips you then shout "OW!" very loudly and instantly turn your back on pup for fifteen minutes - go on with something else and ignore her totally.


I have tried this--well, I try it every time.

And every time it gets me me nips on the backs of the elbows and loud snarls and then hard bites on the backs of my arms.

Ow for real, no acting required.

She simply will not be ignored--she keeps biting until I get up and put her in a time out.

(she's in time out a lot)



Originally posted by carrie
Do not let her have any toys except when you are leaving her at home on her own. Pick these up when she goes to her blanket or bed when you get home.


She pretty much ignores her toys anyway...

I don't think she's ever gotten one on her own.



Originally posted by carrie
Lastly - do not let this pup sleep in your bed room.....


What?

Now this goes against everything i have ever heard or read.

Why not?

Where to sleep?

And of not in a crate? in what?




Originally posted by carrie
Give these things a try for a week and if you can be consistent you will see a difference, I promise!

I'm interested... for sure.

But I really want to understand some of this.

The "no crate" thing esspecially--how do I keep her out of trouble, if she's not in a crate when I can't be right there?

My cats are already eating half of what they were before we got the puppy.

I cannot imagine what their lives would be like if the pup can just run around at night while I'm asleep.

?

[Karen]

Instead of a crate, you can confine her to one room - kitchens are usually pretty "safe" - if there's no door, or half-door, you can keep her in with a with a "baby gate." The cats can jump over, but she can't, (not yet). That leaves the cats free to come and go, and she in a place she can wander but not get into too much trouble.

(My brother and his wife did this, and still sometimes do, with their rescue-pup. She was a boisterous 6-month-old, with plenty of enthusiasm, but NO manners. The cats were NOT amused, but quickly staked out "their" territory, and knew when Lady was confined, and things were "safe.")

The point of feeding her when she's on "her" blanket is that is becomes more hers, a good place, a safe place, a place where good things happen. She will be less inclined to soil it, and will treat it, hopefully, as her "nest."

The more she is on it, the more it smells like herself, the more she'll like it.

I think Carrie is trying to make sure that YOUR bed never becomes a point of contention - YOU are Alpha dog, YOU get the "big bed," lesser dogs in the pack get their own bed.

Hope this helped!

Oh, and the short leash inside is so you can grab the leash easily and control her if need be. A leash is far easier to hang onto than a slickery wiggly puppy!

[wolf_Q]

I really don't see any problem with a crate at home. I think you've got to have a way to confine the pup when you need to for a minute or 2. If you want to confine her in a kitchen or something, that would work too. I didn't really have the option of that, no place for a baby gate. I sometimes tie a leash to a doorknob or something in the kitchen also. I, personally, don't believe in letting a puppy run loose (without close supervision) in the house too often lol....you are giving them too many opportunities to go potty or destroy things without you seeing it. Nebo won't leave my other dogs alone, just like Jaetta won't leave your cats alone.

I don't see a problem of the pup sleeping in your room either. The pup wants to be with you, she wants to be part of the pack. I think the pup should sleep in a crate in your room. That's what my Nebo does. I really don't think she would be ready to sleep on a blanket yet. If she is anything like Nebo, your room would be totally destroyed by morning!! I plan on letting Nebo sleep on a doggy bed next to my bed when he's older, but if I did that now, he'd never sleep...he'd just eat my blankets, etc. lol.

I know how you feel about the leash walking thing. It's really annoying to try to train the dog.......as you don't get anywhere on a walk having to stop and turn around. It does pay off though. Nebo walks much better now. I started him just walking him late at night over to the church and back, that way I didn't have so much of an audience, lol. I was taught to have treats and say things to get the dogs attention to get it to walk *with* you. Be sure to always give the treat as you are walking, don't stop to do it.

As for taking the dog to work, that's your own option. If I could take my dog, I would. But since I can't, and there's no doggy daycare places near me....I have to leave him home. But I leave him in a large dog run. That way he can eat, drink, go potty, etc. while I'm gone. I always leave him with some type of toy (like kongs) that contains a treat to keep him busy when I first leave. He'd bark in there at first, but he's great now. Doesn't make a sound...he's usually asleep in his igloo when I come home.

My dog was a real biter too. He still is, but not nearly as bad. Sometimes if I was playing with him and he'd start biting at me, I'd shove a toy in his mouth and make him bite that instead. I think sometimes they don't realize how hard they are biting........although it *really* hurts! If he'd still be biting me even after I shoved the toy in his mouth, I'd get up and ignore him. I found myself saying "No Bite!" often, lol. When I say "Ow!" usually he'd start biting me even more.

Nebo never wanted to be cuddled either. He'd freak out and claw/bite me if I tried to hold him at all. He still doesn't like to be held down for too long, but now he'll come and sit his big butt in my lap, lol. How long have you had Jaetta? Maybe you still need some "bonding time." I know that I thought Nebo hated me for quite a while. It takes some time for you and the dog to build up trust and well...for the dog to love you.

[strass]

Hi Berber!

I know this must be a really frustrating time for you. We recently adopted a 2-year-old border collie/whippet/pitbull terrier mix from the shelter and have been dealing with some possession-aggression problems. He'll get nasty sometimes if we're getting too close to his food, a stolen sock, etc.

I wanted to respond to your question about feeding. I think this is what Carrie meant. Your dog needs to see that you, the Alpha, eat first. So, before you feed him, get his bowl and put it on the counter. That way he knows it's feeding time. Then, take out a plate and put a little snack on it for yourself. Eat it, put your plate in the sink, and then feed your pup. Alphas eat first, lesser dogs have to wait. We're doing this, plus hand-feeding, with our Murphy, and I think it's starting to make a difference. He's become a lot calmer at feeding time and won't snap at me if one of his kibbles rolls away and I pick it up...he knows I'll give it to him.

We tried to crate-train Murph, but it just didn't work. Keep in mind he's 2. But I've heard that some dogs just never take to the crate.

I don't know if this is the best tactic, but when Murphy is REALLY acting up (trying to jump up when we eat dinner, being especially bitey, etc.), we sometimes give him a squirt with a plant water-sprayer, along with a sharp "NO" or "EH-EH." It definitely makes him stop. We don't want to have to hit him, and feel like this is more "humane."

One other tip--don't let Jaetta sleep on your bed or get on the couch, etc. That makes her feel "equal" to you, which she isn't.

Good luck! Things will get better!! Obedience classes will help.

[ParNone]

wolfq writes:

Nebo never wanted to be cuddled either. He'd freak out and claw/bite me if I tried to hold him at all. He still doesn't like to be held down for too long, but now he'll come and sit his big butt in my lap
I'm having a similar issue with my Collie puppy. He'd much rather
be playing than cuddling, so he struggles when I hold him and
pet him. If what he loves best is playing, I can adjust my cuddle
expectations, but I do need to be able to hold and handle him.
So what I've been doing is picking him up and holding him and
the moment he stops struggling, I set him down. That way he
associates being calm in my arms with getting what he wants,
which is to be on the floor playing. It really seems to be working.
He's struggling less and when I do hold him now, he noses me in
my ear and on my nose, in what I'm interpreting to be his way of
showing affection.

Par...

[anna_66]

That is one thing Roxey used to HATE! She wouldn't be still enough for you to even pet her, all she wanted to do was bite & wiggle around. She was never mean about it or anything, she just couldn't keep herself still enough to get petted!
Now, she'll just lay there and let me cuddle her or whatever I want:D Maybe they just have to grow up a little?

[marjanton]

I remember my first months with my now 8yo "pup". My clearest memory was the hour with an animal psychiatrist while I sobbed the entire session.
Things get better---I just needed to have someone tell me that. Max is my dearest friend today. I can't imagine what I would do without him. BYW, Max is the dog.
I am reading "Dogs Never Lie About Love" by Jeffery Masson. One of his three dogs is a female german shepard. You might enjoy it.The best of luck to you---my old peditrician used to order "tincture of time."

[BerberCarpet]

Today was *much* better.


Hand feeding
This is going well... and paying off big-time.

I'm feeding at least half of every meal by hand. Usually the first part, then I'll let her eat for awhile "on her own" and then I'll feed her the last 15 or so pieces of kibble.

I'm holding the piece between my finger and thumb (tightly) and if she gets it with no teeth on my skin (more or less) I say "gentle" and let her have it. If she does touch teeth to skin, however, I don't let her have it--I say "off" and hold it still. If she clamps down, I say "off" again, more firmly, and blow in her ear (this makes her back off *fast*), then I praise her, put the piece down, and try again.

This has two benefits that I can see: she's learning how much teeth human skin can take (not much!), and she's learning the "off" command--which comes in handy when she's biting me.



Biting

I have come to the conclusion that this is how Jaetta thinks it's good to play.

The "off" command is starting to work durring play, too, and so I'm no longer in pain or bleeding. This is good, and makes it easier to "stay with it."

As with the hand-feeding, if she doesn't back off when i say the first time, I'll repeat it firmly and blow in her ear--followed up by praise and a click on the clicker when she backs off.

(Hopefully the blow in the ear trick will continue to work, huh?)



Crate

I'm hand feeding her in her crate.

This is working very very well: she goes in there on her own when I get the food out.

(!)

I think this has as much to do with the hand feeding in the crate as it does the clicker-training, however.



Clicker training

I bought a clicker at Petsmart on Sunday, and have been using it.

It's like voodoo--she *loves* it, and responds very well to this type of training.

She has learned "sit", "up" and "down" since Sunday (not reliabely, obviously, but she is only 9 weeks old), and is getting to know "Kennel up" as well.

This is a marked difference from last week.



First vet trip

We went the vet for the first time last night, and she did very well.

She was mostly calm, esspecially at first.

She took 3 shots without noticing, AFAICT, and only started to really cry near the end, when there was a very loud annoying small dog outside our room while we were waiting on her stool sample to get done (no worms!).

She didn't bite me nor the vet during this visit.

Yahoo!



Chasing the cats

This is still happening--and I'm not sure what will help.

I have two very different cats, both from the same litter.


Anka is a beatiful Grey colour, with yellow eyes and black nose, and weighs about 5 pounds.

She loves to be held, and can be held in any position--upside down, draped over your shoulder, whatever--she's purring like mad.

But she doesn't like to just sit--she's always into *something.*

She can jump from the floor to the top of the fridge without even phsyching herself up for it. Floor, fridge, boom. Just like that. Amazing.



Bella is an "ugly" brown/white/grey/black "stripped" thing, with this odd "bullseye" marking on her sides.

(She's actually quite pretty, but Anka is gorgous, so it makes Bella look--plain.)

Bella weighs almost 12 pounds, i think.

They eat the same (Anka may eat a little more, i think) stuff, so it's all just biology/personality.

Bella is all about laying around.

When i had a TV, she'd love to sit on the couch and watch it with me.

(Anka would be drinking from the sink or knocking stuff off the top of the 7-foot bookshelf)

Bella has always been (from the first day I brought them home from my uncle's farm when they were kittens--2.5 years ago) a little.... ....off.

She's skittish.

She always has her eyes wide open, and the slightest noise will make her jump.

(Anka couldn't care less about that stuff--she's too busy climbing on the fireplace mantle.)

Bella can hardly jump onto the back of the couch.

Heh.


So that's my cats.


I'm afraid Jaetta's going to give Bella a heart attack.

And I'm afraid Anka's going to give Jaetta claw marks in her eyeball.

(no de-clawing in this house, thank you very much)


Anka is such a bi@$% to Jaetta--she'll go into the kitchen where Jaetta's "penned in", and jump onto a chair and lay there with her tail bouncing around.

This just makes Jaetta go nuts!

And Jaetta will bark at her and try to sniff her and then Anka will bop Jaetta on the nose.

(no claws, yet--I play pretty rough with Anka, and she's learned not to scratch)


But I have never seen a cat egg a dog on like this.

It would be funny if it wasn't so scary.

I don't know who's going to get hurt first, but it's giving me an ulcer.


(I should never have kids. I called the emergency vet the first time Anka coughed up a hairball--I had no idea what was going on. I thought she was dying. I cried.)


Me <-- big wimp


In any case, she's chasing the cats.





Chewing metal

So I got this....... ...fence, in the kitchen, right?

I have an 8 foot span to cover from the living room to the kitchen, so a normal blockade wouldn't do.

So my dad and I installed a four-foot high chain-link fence, with gate.

(yes, I have to climb *under* the gate--it's mad annoying)

But it has these metal bolts on the gate hinges.

And Jaetta is chewing them sometimes.

This cannot be good on her teeth.

She's doing this with her bone, Kong and Nylabone all laying right there.

?

Will Bitter Apple help this?

It's normal corregated metal fencing.



Okay, I think that's all.


wow... that's a long post, huh?

[BerberCarpet]

Scratch that.....


She must have just been in a good mood for a 18 hours or so.


She's more aggresive than ever now.


She bites my pant legs when I try to walk her, and she bites my arms when I try to put her leash on/off.


I've tried the "ep, ep" thing and pulling her head "away" with her lead, as it's "non-confrontational" but she's strong--and I have to pull so hard that I'm afraid it'll hurt her. (besides the fact that she seems to consider this the same as me actually pulling her away from me with my hands)


I've tried pinning her down (calmly), but she flails.

I've tried time-outs (tying her leash to a door knob in the kitchen) of varying lengths, but she tends to go right back to being aggresive when I go to "let her out."

I've tried isolating her calmly in her crate, but when she's in this excited/biting mood, she simply will not go in calmly, even when I try and bribe her with ice cubes (her favourite treat).

I've tried Sarah Hodgson's "look for rain" trick--crossing my arms and looking at the sky (ie, giving no attention at all) until she calms down, but she will happily bite at my ankles and calves for as long as I've cared to try it so far (several minutes, at least).

I have tried firm "Jaetta, No!" and "Off!" (which still works when i'm hand-feeding her, but not while she's biting me anymore).


But all in all, nothing seems to make her calm down and not want to bite more.


?

[ownerof3dogs]

A little trick that works for my dogs with chasing the cats and biting is:

You fill a soda can or and can that is metal with pennies and seal it shut. Then everytime shes chasing the cat or biting you shake it really hard or throw it on the floor so it make a horrible load noise. It usually surprises the dog and stops them form what there doing. And they wont do it again b/c they'll start to associate that action with the bad sound.

It worked for my dogs and maybe it will work for yours.

Good luck!

[BerberCarpet]

I'm starting to sound like Grouchy Smurf here, but...


I tried that.

She did back away the first couple of times, but then she growled, jumped up and took the can out of my hand and started whipping it around in her mouth, like it was a snake.

Now when she sees it, she just barks at it, whether I am shaking it or not.

[Cookiebaker]

Have you considered getting a personal trainer to work with you 1 on 1? It's not so much about training the dog, but training you how to train the dog. I know they can be fairly expensive but how committed are you? Are you convinced that this is the "right" dog for you??

[BerberCarpet]

All valid questions.

Believe me, I have considered everything.


I would *love* to be able to get a 1-on-1 trainer.

But I am mad poor--and getting this dog was a poor financial decision, regardless of her personality/temperment--I couldn't afford her (really) and I can barely afford to keep her.

I should have waited, but I didn't and now I cannot afford what it would take to fix it.

It's frustrating to me and not good for her.

I blew it.



Next question, am I sure this is the right dog for me?

No, I'm not.

I am in love with her, and when she's a sweetheart, I get a glimpse of the relationship we could have one day, but I'm actually pretty convinced that she really needs an experienced Sch handler.

I'm also starting to think that the breeder knew this and sold this pup to me anyway.

I'm not happy about that, but again, I made this bed.

[trisha0503]

Hi,

I'm sorry you're experiencing these problems with your new puppy. :(

I found this link Dog Aggression Question and Answers (http://www.doggiedoor.com/doghouse/aggressq.shtml)

I checked out the sites and it seems very helpful and thorough.

I hope things would work out well between you and your puppy.

[wolf_Q]

All I can say is *please* don't give up on her! I had the very same thoughts with Nebo! He was also aggressive and it really scared me! I don't have much money either, and I really couldn't afford a dog. But I did it anyway, haha. Actually, I just barely got a job.......and I've had him since july.......my poor bank account.


She bites my pant legs when I try to walk her, and she bites my arms when I try to put her leash on/off.


I've tried the "ep, ep" thing and pulling her head "away" with her lead, as it's "non-confrontational" but she's strong--and I have to pull so hard that I'm afraid it'll hurt her. (besides the fact that she seems to consider this the same as me actually pulling her away from me with my hands)


I've tried pinning her down (calmly), but she flails.

I've tried time-outs (tying her leash to a door knob in the kitchen) of varying lengths, but she tends to go right back to being aggresive when I go to "let her out."


Nebo did the SAME things. I'm not kidding here. Whenever I'd grab his collar he'd snap and growl at me. Don't do the pinning her down thing--it doesn't work! At least for strong-willed dogs, in my opinion. It just makes them mad! Nebo bit me ALL the time. HARD, he even drew a little bit of blood a few times. Of course, being me, I was freaking out about all of this! Get her in the kindergarten, give her some time to adjust to her new life and to get to know you......and know you are boss. The change in my dog is very dramatic. Seriously. I really thought he hated me, and he was very mean......we were not getting along well at all. Now he comes and snuggles in my lap, he can sit, down, shake, speak, roll-over, wait, stay, leave it, etc. (for the most part). He still bites sometimes, and he still destroys things......but well, that's puppyhood. :rolleyes:

[marjanton]

I know this is off the subject, but have you noticed that being financially challenged and having a dog sometimes works to yur advantage?
I hate to leave Max, (he doesn't mind going to his grandma's house or to DogE-Central--a great in- house animal spa near us) but I miss him. Therefore I tend to plan vacations in the car and with people that feel the same way about their animaals. We often stay in the cheaper motels, because they allow dogs. We picnic, because "it's too hot to leave them in the car." If we do go into the restuarant, we skip drinks and appetizers, because "you never know when that darn car will heat up on a day like this."I love to garden, but this year I did the minimum, "because the off-lease dog park is a mile away and at their work parties, Max is a favorite and I'd rather work in making the park look nice, I have more fun." Instead of the treadmill, I take fast walks.
Of course, knock on wood, I have a healthy dog and vet bills consist of only shots and Advantage flea treatment. Soo, when considering a tight budget, a dog can work both ways. Just a thought.

[KYS]

Hi,

It's only a little bit over a week since you got some
wonderful advice from people on Pet Talk.
You need to have a lot of patience and not give up
so soon. Training takes time, It took me
months to deal with some problems with
Rocky. (Give your puppy and yourself a chance to
make it work.)
If you bought your puppy from a reputable breeder,
Contact the breeder and let her know you are having
problems, the breeder should be able to offer
advice.

Only you can answer whether or not
you are not financially/mentally able to give proper care
for your puppy. ,
If you are not able to provide basic good care for your puppy, you
might want to talk to the breeder and see if she
will take the puppy back and find her a new home.
For medical care, Vets will usually take payments.
What ever you decide we will not judge you,
we just want you and your puppy to be happy.

[BerberCarpet]

Originally posted by KYS
You need to have a lot of patience and not give up so soon. Training takes time, It took me months to deal with some problems with Rocky. (Give your puppy and yourself a chance to make it work.)
[/

I *feel* that way, myself.

But in the meantime, my puppy is getting more and more aggresive everyday.

We now have no interactions where she's not trying to bite me, unless I have an ice cube or I'm feeding her.

As soon as she's done eating her food or she's destroyed the cube, she's back to biting and growling at me.

The problem with giving it a chance to make it work is that I'm losing my grip on everything else in my life.

My cats are eating half of what they were before, due to stress, and are losing weight.

I've lost 8 pounds since I got her.

I've been sick for two weeks now--again, stress--and I am one of those weird people who get's sick once every 5-6 years.


I haven't had time to deal with bills or even laundry or dishes.

I am absolutly at the end of my rope.

And it's not anger--I'm not "upset" with Jaetta for "doing this to me."

I'm just stressed out because my puppy is clearly unhappy, and nothing I am doing is helping--she's getting more aggresive day by day.

And the stress is taking its toll on me.





Originally posted by KYS
If you bought your puppy from a reputable breeder,
Contact the breeder and let her know you are having
problems, the breeder should be able to offer
advice.
[/

Yeah, I've contacted them.

Thier first reaction was something aking to: "Good luck with that."

I'm still awating a third return call/email.



Originally posted by KYS
Only you can answer whether or not you are not financially/mentally able to give proper care for your puppy. If you are not able to provide basic good care for your puppy, you might want to talk to the breeder and see if she will take the puppy back and find her a new home.
[/

That is my plan--but have not heard back from the breeder in several days.

It is one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make, but its the right thing to do--for Jaetta and for me.


She's not happy (obviously) and I've made myself sick with worry for her.

The fact that she makes me bleed every time I get near her is really incidental.

I'm sure an experience Sch handler could have her happy and behaving well in a matter of days--but I am just not able to.



Originally posted by KYS
What ever you decide we will not judge you,
we just want you and your puppy to be happy.


Actually, this means a lot.

Thank you.

[Karen]

Have you signed up for puppy kindergarten??? Do that ASAP, and it may help tremendously, whatever you decide.

Hang in there, maybe buy some leather gloves to protect your hands for now.

[carrie]

Crikey! I feel awful for not checking back sooner!

The one thing I advise you straight away to do is learn how to correct this pup properly. This is not a lap dog we are talking about and I fear that you may not be the handler that this pup needs.

Please do not continue to pin her down or blow in her ear - you are inviting her to bite your face in both instances and one day she will!!!!

Have you thought of contacting your local police with a view to having them test your pup for suitability?

This pup needs a working environment and a structured day with very clear cut, no exception rules.

Secondly, I understand your desire for a canine companion but feel that you greatly underestimated the time and work involved in any puppy - let alone the pup you brought home. In experienced hands she could be a dream but I don't think that you will be able to rearrange your life or approach to the dog quickly enough to turn the situation around. This pup is getting bigger every day and will soon be out of your control and a danger to you.

It is clear that you love this dog and wish to do whatever it takes and I think that the best all round would be for the dog to go to somebody with the experience and time to handle her. Please beware of returning her to a breeder that will almost certainly resell her to a pet home.

If you still feel the urge for canine company do not let this experience put you off. You clearly have a good home for the right dog with plenty of love and opportunity - why not have a break and then try fostering for a local shelter until the right one lands on the doorstep?

I do not mean to sound flippant but this pup is clearly not the right dog for you and it is damaging the chances for both of you to be happy the longer this situation continues. This does not make her a bad pup - she sounds like a honey - nor does it make you a bad owner - you sound like a honey too!

Try the police and if they are not interested they may be able to give you some ideas of where to go next......let us know how it goes and good luck, whatever you decide.

[lizbud]

WOW, I can't believe I missed this topic for so long.(and from
a fellow Indy citizen too boot). My dog Buddy was very aloof
as a pup, definately not the cuddley type at all, but the only
time I experienced the biting, attacking behavior was outside
in the yard playing.I still have the bite mark scars on my arm
to prove it.;) It all worked out for Bud & me, but I'm sure I
made many mistakes along the way.Best of Luck with your
beautiful pup. Liz.

[ownerof3dogs]

Just wondering how everything is?

[BerberCarpet]

Well..

I'm sad.

Today is the day I find out if the breeder will buy her back from me.


I'm going to miss her a ton, but there's a lot of reasons I cannot/should not keep her.

I'm going to have to get a second job to make my mortgage payment (and I cannot afford to get the fence I was planning to buy) and she has gotten so whiney in her crate that they "asked" me not to bring her into work anymore.


I am very very sad about all of this.

[anna_66]

Sorry to hear this, but there "will" be a dog out there that is meant just for you;)

[BerberCarpet]

Well, the breeder bought her back from me today--I dropped her off there this morning.

Jaetta is no longer "my" pup...

Obviously I'm full of all sorts of mixed emotions.


I had grown so fond of her in these 7 weeks, and it's going to be weird to not have her next to the bed tonight.

:(

But she'll be fine.

The breeders were really happy with her--said she was georgous, and had "perfect form" and were amazed at how self-confident she was.

I kept trying to tell them...

;)

And they just bought her form me outright--no consignment, no kenneling fee, and gave me a good chunk of her original price back.

All this was much more than I could have asked or expected.


So anyway, that's that.

I'm really gonna miss her, and hope to be able to "try again" in a couple of years, when things in the rest of my life settle down.


In the mean time, I am looking forward to browsing this board more for fun than for "help."

You all have been very good to me, and it is much appreciated.

- me


BTW: I got a whole role of good pictures on our second-to-last night together, and will post a couple, once they're developed. It is amazing how fast she grew.

[turner]

I'm so sorry you had to give Jetta up, but sounds like it was the best for you and for her! At least you could give her back to the breeder and they will find a good home for her. Most breeders won't take back the dogs or if they do, they won't give you any money back.

Again sorry to hear that you had to give her up!

[anna_66]

I'm glad you feel confident about your decision. I'm really excited to see pics of the pup we've heard so much about!

[BerberCarpet]

ONE YEAR LATER

Can you believe it?

A lot has happened since I had to give Jaetta up.

For one, my wife came back, and the last 10 months have been the best of our almost 6 years together. (!)

For two, we got a dog last month.

We opted to adopt a 1-year-old this time, rather than "risk" the puppy thing again.

We got a Lab/Shepherd mix, and named him "Trogdor."


He was rescued from "an unfit environment" and he's *awesome*.


He was already housebroken, and mostly crate trained, from his month in foster care.

We have him in a "group training" at Petsmart, and he's doing very well -- a very fast learner.

He's not a "people pleaser" per se, which makes him a little harder to train, but he's really smart, which makes him more trainable in the long run, I think?


In any case, the last word from the breeder is that Jaetta got put in a good home and is the love the her new owner's life.

Woo hoo!

[wolf_Q]

Hey, I remember this thread! Welcome back! I'm so glad things have worked out for both you and Jaetta. :) Congratulations on the new addition!! Trogder is so handsome!

[KYS]

Welcome back and congratulations to you/your wife and
also your new addition.
My favorite dog of all time was a GSD/Lab mix.

[BerberCarpet]

Originally posted by KYS
My favorite dog of all time was a GSD/Lab mix.

Mine too!

My brother's dog, Gwenyth is such a dog.

We were not really planning on getting a dog till spring, but I "happened" across Trogdor's listing at PetFinder.com (which will happen if you search for Shepherd/Lab in your area ;) ).

I showed the listing to the wife, and two weeks later, I was still thinking about him, so I asked if we could go meet him.


...and when we did we couldn't pass him up.

He's wonderful.

Got another pic:

[lv4dogs]

By golly geese I remember this post as well!
It is amazing what time can do. I am glad things are going swell for you now! And he is a handsome one I must add!

[carrie]

I am incredibly pleased for all of you! Thank you so much for updating us.

[lovemyshiba]

Wonderful news!!!
I wasn't around last year when all of this happened, but I have read through the thread.
Trogdor is gorgeous, and sounds like the perfect dog for you!!
Congratulations:)