Non-primary English Speakers (EASL)

[Vio&Juni]

I will try to answer to Cataholic's questions, ignoring the other subjects brought in here, otherwise I would have to tell you my country's history and geo-political situation
It's very easy for me to write and speak in English as this is what I do all day long at the office and as a big part of my friends here in Chisinau are from different countries and we use English to communicate.
I speak Romanian, which is my native language, Russian, which used to be an official language for my country and people use it on a daily basis, French - since 4th grade (10 yo). I studied English and French language and literature at the University for 5 years. Before the university, the only things I knew in English was to count and greet someone. Studying mostly literary language, unfortunately very narrowly directed only to scientific study of languages, I found it difficult to start talking. Still, I am learning everyday. It's a great experience. I had a German boyfriend for a long time (I was supposed to marry him and move to Germany). With him, I improved my English and, of course, I learned some German. I am sure, if I were to live in Germany, German would be now my 5th language. Now, working as a translator and working mainly with telecom, finance and legal related terms, Pet Talk is a blessing. This is where I can enjoy English. And cats.
I had to lough (LOUD) when I read Miss Meow and Cataholic's "discussion"
And, no offence to American English speakers - I like better how British and Australian English sounds, although the American version is the easier one.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Originally posted by Cataholic



He he he...I say Libary!!!! I don't know why, but I do. I know it is wrong, but, I just got into the habit.

How about "yous guys" instead of you guys as in "What are yous guys doing today?" AAaaaaiiigghhhh...drives me crazy!!! One of my best friends says this all the time. I really believe that she knows it's not correct, and that's why she says it, but it's just like fingernails on the chalkboard to me. I don't know if people in other parts of the country say this, but where I notice it the most is in Northern Wisconsin (which is where I was born and raised).

'Course, dey also talk like dis up der in dat der Nort cuntry, you know, hey? Anybody remember that musical group that made a few songs out of talking like that? Weren't they called "Great White North" or something like that? They were too funny. The scarey part is, now that I live in Chicago where not many people talk like that, I go home and I can really hear it in my friends and family - mostly my dad. Dey really do talk like dat der, hey.

And my mom used to say libary all the time - and she loves the library and goes there all the time. I finally got her to start saying library.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Ann - it's unfortunate that you had to run across so many of our "not exactly bright" citizens while you were here. However, much of your experience is anecdotal, and you are generalizing based on a small percentage of Americans (largely Southern Californians?) you have met.

Yes, America is very wrapped up in the September 11th tragedy, because it happened HERE, to OUR people. Naturally we will be a lot more concerned about it and want to memorialize the innocent victims. If it happened in Sweden, those people would be far more concerned about it, because it would be felt so directly and deeply. This is not because we think only Americans deserve to be mourned. How do you know that none of us care about innocent victims of war? I resent being lumped into a category of Afghan-hating ignorant people because I am a white American. I feel sick about ANY war, and I don't feel that anybody deserves to die because of some religious fanatic on a personal mission. bin Laden does not represent the entire country of Afghanistan, and I am ashamed that there are American people who truly feel that it "suits them right" (Afghans). As far as the pastor, well, that speaks more about religious exclusion than national pride and ignorance. Who knows how a Shintoist would feel if you told him you find American Catholicism fascinating and a better religion. If he was a Shinto extremist, he might get his knickers in a twist regardless of what country you're from. The beauty of this country is that there are AMERICANS who practice Shintoism right here in America, are free to do so, and would welcome Shintoists even if they were from Sweden . Perhaps some of our religions are not very tolerant, but you are not forced by national policy to follow any of them, or persecuted/tortured/killed for your alternate beliefs as happens in some other countries.

I could go on forever too, mostly about how much I hate the "lumping" that I am seeing here. I cannot and will not form a general opinion of an entire nation based on the few people I have spoken with here on Pet Talk, met while visiting other countries, met while they were visiting here, etc.

And I have always known where Sweden is, but I had to look up Catalonia and Moldova - - it's been a LOOOOONG time since I studied world geography! Did the European kids in that study do better at world geography, or local geography? Would they know the capital of each US state? Whatever; it really means nothing more than the ability to memorize and retain facts. Being able to recite from memory the capital of Saudi Arabia and point out the country on a map is just that; it doesn't necessarily mean the student has a deep understanding of the people and culture of that country or a greater understanding of the world as a whole. It just means they remembered those facts about Saudi Arabia. (I can remember learning which US state was which by the shape of their borders when I was a tyke ) Not having a personal interest in current world events or other cultures isn't necessarily ignorance, just a personal preference. I'd rather study kitties . In fact, I think I'll go study my kitty right now.

[popcornbird]

Twisterdog, he MAY have been having a bad day, but the fact that he only treated us in this way and was acting normal with the white Americans makes us sure he was racist. This is not the first time it happened, and we live in a very "international" area. Imagine if we were in a state where there were ONLY whites with a LOT of racist people. My cousin lives in Illinois and she gets yelled at everyday, just walking down the street, and she doesn't even "dress" like a Muslim. I guess they can just "tell" from her skin color. We've also had people yell at us for no reason, and it happens all the time since 9/11. Those people are idiots who associate everyone of a certain religion to a certain idiot. There ignorant behavior would be eqivilent to if we associate all Christians to Hitler. We were once walking back to our car in a store parking lot when this crazy guy in a truck zooms past us and yells "GO HOME!" I was born here, raised here, and now I'm being told to "go home???" What home? Isn't this home? I "thought" it was. I have absolutely NOTHING against white Americans and I have MANY wonderfully nice white American friends, but these people make me SICK.

Regarding what Ann said, I agree with her fully. Suppose 9/11 happened in Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or any other "Muslim" country, or any other country. I don't think America would have cared, nor sided with any one of them to fight the war on "terrorism" nor would they have helped them as Pakistan or other countries helped them. As for the general public, some may have cared, become heartbroken (if they ever got the right information), but most (in my opinion) wouldn't have cared at all. Just like no one cares for the innocent Afghans that were killed in the war (outnumbered 9/11 victims) no one would have cared if 9/11 happened somewhere else. Remember, other nations have had 9/11 x 10, or 1000, or even 1000. They have had millions of people in their nations killed in war. Who cares? No one. But when a tragedy happens in America, the whole world cares. Americans are no better than any other human being. We are all people, we are all equal. I find it totally injust to care about certain people so much, and to have no care at all for people of other nations. Mankind is equal, and all should be cared for equally, whether they are in your city, your state, your country, your continent, your world. And also, what Ann said about people saying "it serves the right" MANY Americans have told me that as well. How would they feel if people said that about them? Thos innocent Afghan women and children and babies that were killed. What crime did they commit that it should serve them right? Living in their homes, in poverty, in the freezing cold with no proper shelter, struggling to live and keep their children alive....................it serves them right to be killed? I don't think so. Very unfortunate. Sometimes I wish I was from another planet.

[Edwina's Secretary]

It's something in human nature....EVERY society looks for others who are "different" and therefore labeled inferior. In Latin America it is the indigenous people (natives if you will), in England it's the Irish, in Pakistan it's the Hindus, in Croatia it's the Serbians, etc, etc, etc. The town where I grew up had a very large Swedish community and they would make jokes about the Norwegians -- very confusing as they looked alike to me!

When you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

Is not labeling "Americans are all...." (regrettably I've not had the opportunity to meet the vast majority of anything!) "All people who profess this faith are_______", "all of those kind of people are___" not the very SAME behavior?

If you don't like being labeled....don't label! Change the world one person at a time!

[Ann]

Popcornbird, I'm glad you agree. Sometimes it saddens me that people of other races or from other countries can see flaws in the USA that the "real" citizens can't see.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Ann - it's unfortunate that you had to run across so many of our "not exactly bright" citizens while you were here. However, much of your experience is anecdotal, and you are generalizing based on a small percentage of Americans (largely Southern Californians?) you have met.

Actually, while most of my real life experience is only from California, I work at a big online community with over 5000 members; the majority of those from the USA. I've based a lot of my opinions on them as well as the people I met in Cali, the people on Pet Talk and other websites. I really am not basing my opinions on just a few people, but hundres and hundreds I've talked to. And while those hundreds of course is a small percent of all the Americans, it still gives a pretty good view.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Yes, America is very wrapped up in the September 11th tragedy, because it happened HERE, to OUR people. Naturally we will be a lot more concerned about it and want to memorialize the innocent victims. If it happened in Sweden, those people would be far more concerned about it, because it would be felt so directly and deeply. This is not because we think only Americans deserve to be mourned. How do you know that none of us care about innocent victims of war?

I think Swedes and pretty much the whole world mourned for the innocent deaths on September 11. But would you have done the same? That was my point, nothing else...

Of course I know that not all of you are uncaring... A great example would be Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The thousands of people who died there were all innocent civilians and yet most Americans sees it as "a quick way to end the war without any American troops getting slaughtered".

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
As far as the pastor, well, that speaks more about religious exclusion than national pride and ignorance. Who knows how a Shintoist would feel if you told him you find American Catholicism fascinating and a better religion. If he was a Shinto extremist, he might get his knickers in a twist regardless of what country you're from. The beauty of this country is that there are AMERICANS who practice Shintoism right here in America, are free to do so, and would welcome Shintoists even if they were from Sweden . Perhaps some of our religions are not very tolerant, but you are not forced by national policy to follow any of them, or persecuted/tortured/killed for your alternate beliefs as happens in some other countries.

Actually, I've spoken to many Shintoists before, and they have always been able to discuss other religions maturely and without calling me a "devil worshipper"

The beauty of your country can be had in the majority of other countries as well. Sure, there are places like China in the world that doesn't allow free religion, but the USA is not unique with that.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Did the European kids in that study do better at world geography, or local geography? Would they know the capital of each US state? Whatever; it really means nothing more than the ability to memorize and retain facts.

They did better with both actually. The study wasn't like "name the capital of California" or anything like that, they asked more general knowledge questions like if there is a town called so-and-so in the USA etc.

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Not having a personal interest in current world events or other cultures isn't necessarily ignorance, just a personal preference.

It's a complete different thing not to have an interest and to just be plain out uncaring and ignorant. Very big difference IMHO.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Suppose 9/11 happened in Afghanistan, or Pakistan, or Saudi Arabia, or any other "Muslim" country, or any other country. I don't think America would have cared, nor sided with any one of them to fight the war on "terrorism" nor would they have helped them as Pakistan or other countries helped them.

I'm sorry, but this is the exact opposite of the truth Popcornbird. I've grown up watching our government intervene in EVERYTHING other countries do if it involves any sort of attack. We have millions of men and woman serving our county in other countries during their military service. Do you remember the Gulf War? We were there to stop Sadam from taking over Kuwait...I am pretty sure that the Muslim religion is practiced there, right?

Ann, have you any idea what help the CITIZENS of the U.S. did to help the victims of the attack on Afghanistan? I'm sure you really don't. Many, many, many churches (yes! even non-Muslim ones) sent money/food/clothing/toys to the children and families. The U.S. government re-built buildings and airlifted food. Children in the US sent hand made cards and teddy bears to the children of Afghanistan. Many things were done, and all from us horrid Americans. I know you lived in California for a short while, but by you stating that we are ignorant as a general statement is a reflection of you, not fact. You really have no idea.

Popcornbird, you know I love you. I don't anything mean by my statement above. I can't even begin to imagine (you know, being a blond haired, white girl from California) the horribly disgusting individuals you have to deal with. When I drove by our local Islamic Center (in the town I live in) and saw that someone had broken the lights on their sign, I was heartbroken that someone that lived in the same town would have such a hateful heart. That was actually what was going through my mind as I sat watching the news on 9-11, how can anyone have that much hate and anger for another (unknown at that)?? I apologize for that man, bad mood or not, he had NO RIGHT to be such a jerk, regardless of your skin/eye/hair color.

Re: Not knowing state capitals or world geography.
I learned geography, oh, in 9th grade. That was over 10 years ago...this knowledge, just like anything else you don't use (like another language-Yay, Cataholic, I brought my rantings full circle!! ), you lose it. I know that I've learned a heck of a lot more in my college classes about the world than I ever would have in high school.... it applies now.

[NoahsMommy]

For Ann:

"Today I'm announcing, along with the Secretary of State, that America will contribute an additional $320 million in humanitarian assistance for Afghans for more food, more medicine, to help the innocent people of Afghanistan deal with the coming winter. This is our way of saying that while we firmly and strongly oppose the Taliban regime, we are friends of the Afghan people.
We will work with the UN agencies such as the World Food Program and work with private volunteer organizations to make sure this assistance gets to the people. We will make sure that not only the folks in Afghanistan who need help get help, but we will help those who have fled to neighboring countries to get help as well.
There's no question that we're an angry people about what happened to our country. But in our anger, we must never forget we're a compassionate people as well. We will fight evil. But in order to overcome evil, the great goodness of America must come forth and shine forth. And one way to do so is to help the poor souls in Afghanistan. And we're going to do so.
I want to remind the world that helping people in need is a central part of not only the Christian faith, but of Judaism and the Hindu faith, and of course a central part of Islamic traditions. And that's why our coalition is more than just one to rout terrorism out of the world. It's one to bind together, to knit those traditions in a way that helps people in need."
~President George W. Bush, October 4, 2001


And here are some links for you to check out. Just because you don't see this stuff on your television, doesn't mean it isn't out there. I know about it, because I looked for ways to help.

http://www.usaid.gov/afghanistan/
http://www.givespot.com/ask/afghanistan.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2003Jan8.html
http://www.evergreenairlines.com/news/12402.html
http://www.justgive.org/html/news/november.html#3
http://www.usemb-ashgabat.usia.co.at/pr61b.html

I think that is enough for now...this are only a few that I found. There are countless links on the aid the other contries offered, its wonderful.

[Soledad]

I would just like to point out that there is a vast difference between having issues with the American government and the American people.

I'm a wee bit uncomfortable with this conversation, as I have been living in another country for years and have realised that Americans do not corner the market on ignorance, etc. That can be found everywhere. I suppose the difference is that America is the only superpower, and that that ignorance has far greater capability to hurt others than ignorance from other countries.

At any rate, I think generalisations can be useful, but dangerous after a certain point.

If Americans are weak on world geography, consider the fact that Americans are taught (as are Europeans) primarily the land surrounding them. As a result, your average American will know lots about their states, as would a European about the surrounding countries. I think we've had this discussion before at Pettalk.

Also, in regards to aid in Afghanistan, it has not been nearly enough. The country (the U.S.) that took out the Taliban has not been the leader in aid giving.

[URL=http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/01/20/afghan.donors/]

You would think that the "War on Terrorism" would seek to repair a broken country so that further regimes could not fill the vacuum. The current leader is only hanging on by a thread. Futher instability is not far off.

[Cataholic]

Originally posted by popcornbird
An example of American ignorance about other people:

Today we went to the store to return a tweezer that my mom bought yesterday because it didn't work good. We got this old racist cashier when we went to return it. He started yelling at us and saying, "WHY DO YOU WANT TO RETURN IT???? THERE"S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT? WHY????? AND WHY ARE YOU HERE SO LATE? WHY COULDN'T YOU RETURN IT IN THE MORNING???" UGH!

??? Pops, this is an assumption on your part, I think, of this guy's racist attitude. I am pretty American looking..light hair, blue eyes, fair skin...and stuff like this happens all the time. Pops, I can't put myself in your shoes. I do not know discrimination. I haven't been a victim of it, I haven't really seen it in my life, but, I have had close friends that have. If I may give you an example. I am Godmother to an african american girl, who is now a teenager. I have known her since three months of age, and love her to pieces. I regret I am not intimately involved in her life right now. But, for years, I was. She and I would do things together..I would babysit her, we would run errands, etc. Sometimes we would be alone- her mom would be doing whatever she was doing. Sometimes, though, all three of us would be out. I usually was begging to carry the child, hold her hand, etc. Well, on more than one occasion, the mom would tell me, "Johanna, do you see that woman (funny, usually a white older woman) staring at you and XXX?" I would never notice, cause I wasn't looking for it...I haven't really been on that end of it..My point? I am not sure I have one, just that people's points of reference are so different. Maybe one person is hypersensitive to a situation, seeing fault where none exists. Or, maybe they are like me, not seeing it, cause it isn't on my radar. I know it exists. I have one or two experiences of a personal nature in another form of discrim. As a female attorney, I think it exists...but, it isn't the same as what you are experiencing, of that I am pretty sure.


Ann- I really take exception to essentially your entire post. I am not sure how someone could make such a general statement about an entire country, based on your admittably biased 'research' (talking over the internet to hundreds and hundreds). I, for one, am far from ignorant. I am highly educated, intelligent, bright, articulate, blah blah blah...and I am definetely American. I would choose to live no where else but here. My friends are not ignorant, my family is not ignorant, essentially, my profession is not ignorant (no lawyer jokes now folks). But, I will be the first to admit I don't know all the US capitals, I don't know world geography, I don't know most countries political structures, and I don't lose sleep over the mistreatment of humans outside of my center of life. Do I wish it weren't so? Of course. Do I know it goes on? Of course. But, I won't misrepresent myself as some overly humane person, grieving for the world. Why? Cause you have to fight your fights. I choose to focus on myself, my family, friends, community- as big as my country, as small as my neighborhood. I don't condone violence, though I think it is a necessary evil. My point of reference is the United States, my homeland. If that makes me ignorant, so be it. That is, I suppose, an interpretation of ignorance. I find it to be a bit more realistic, and candid than clamoring on about "The World".


The fact is September 11th happened in the USA, to largely American people, innocent at that. I am neither more or less of a person because I allow that tragedy to affect me more than the one in Afghanistan. September 11th was one of the first attacks on American soil. Perhaps that is why it was so traumatic. But, since when is the world about, "my crisis is bigger/better/more important than your crisis"? Does it make the innocent deaths less important to the loved ones? Does it even some imaginable score against the USA , as in "Hah, now see how you like it"?

I just truly struggle with understanding your point of reference. As one of the wealthiest countries in the world, I know our government contributes greatly to other nations. I know we do not receive the same support, in relation to the country's abilities, back. Sure, say it is for 'power', for 'strategy', for 'public relations'...whatever, the fact is, we contribute our people, our resources, our finances...and it doesn't make a lick of difference to the innocent people that recieve the contributions/life style changes/food/medication what the motives behind the donations are.

While I can appreciate your opinion, though I don't understand it, you seem very bent on bringing down the USA in order to make other countries stand tall. I don't think that is necessary. Any country can stand tall on its own, without having to do so at the expense of another country.

[Cataholic]

Oh, one more thing, and I realize I might take some heat for this thought....I have found, at least on this board, that those leaning more towards the opinions expressed HERE by Ann and Popcornbird ( I am limiting it to the people that have posted on this thred), are younger....

I think that these are the opinions young people NEED to have, to help keep the world on its toes, to keep shaking up the establishment, to keep us examining the status quo.

I think as we age, we also see other things that come into play. Like- maybe whether one knows where Sweden is, or what the capital of Oklahoma is, might not be, gulp, that important????

I am not saying America, or any other country, is without fault. Ignorance really isn't 'country specific'. It is with age, experience, personal growth, that we come to see 'truth'.....


I am not saying, "If one is young, they don't know what they are talking about".

I am saying, "When one is young, one usually has a limited cache of experiences from which to draw upon, making their views/opinions/theories a bit less time tested than others."

[Edwina's Secretary]

Cataholic -- you make some very valid points about life experiences. I am childless but my niece lives with me right now while attending college and my stepson lived with us for a few years. Early 20's both of them. It made me realize how "black and white" everything used to be to me -- very simple. Right was "my right" and wrong was everything else.

The world is far more complex than that and solutions are hard to come by as "one man's ceiling is another man's floor."

One last story then I will shut up on this thread. In August I was recruiting in London. A couple of the candidates I was interviewing decided to tell me what Americans "are like." One told me that Americans aren't friendly with co-workers and never make friends of them. (I responded that my husband and I had met as co-workers and were pretty friendly ) Another told me that because Americans don't have employment contracts they have no loyalty to the employer and can make faster decisions. This from a man who had never stayed on a job more than 2-3 years! Yet another told me that Americans make very slow decisions because every thing has to be by concensus.

The point is...perception is the sum of the experiences we have had, the things we have read or heard. Another individual may have had completely different experiences and therefore have completely different perception. Is there a correct perception -- that's a great philosophical question!

[NoahsMommy]

Very well put, Edwina's mommy. Very good.

[Soledad]

Edwina'sMommy -


I don't believe perceptions are either right or wrong, they are simply subjective pieces of information. The sum of a person's experience can not be categorised as being correct or not, but it can still be valid.

Outsiders (be them American or not) have experiences that are valuable for the Insiders to know. If we talk to non-Americans and ask them what their perceptions of Americans are, we can learn a lot, regardless of whether or not those perceptions gel with our own. They are a valid piece of information that helps to get us closer to the truth.

When people here ask me what I think of New Zealanders, I give them my perception based on my time here. I don't think too many people are foolish enough to not realise that there are exceptions. But regardless if my take on NZers is what they think, they now have an idea of how they project themselves to the outside world, which can lead to a greater understanding of themselves.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Thank you, Cataholic. Well put, both posts.

Ann - there are more countries than just China that are religiously intolerant - Afghanistan, for example. I didn't say the US had a lock on religious freedom; it just seemed funny, you commenting on the religious "ignorance" you encountered in this free country which was really little more than a difference of opinion. Go tell a member of the Taliban that you feel Shintoism is a superior religion, and you will come away with more than hurt feelings. Just as we are not the only free nation, we are also not the only ignorant one. Yes, the US has "flaws". (Yes, we "whities" can see the flaws.) I'm sure Sweden does too. I just don't have the time or inclination to look up what they are and then bash them for it.

If you ask me "is there a town in Sweden called Malmo?", I have a 50/50 chance of getting it right. A multiple-choice quiz with 2 possible answers doesn't constitute European superiority in knowledge of world geography, just good luck.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are SICKENING. I wasn't on this earth when they happened, but I do NOT hold the opinion that it was a quick, easy way to end a war. Unfortunately, our elected officials can make decisions without the input of the American population, such as dropping bombs. This does not in any way mean that all Americans condone such activity. This happened back in a far more unenlightened time, which is why you wouldn't see us annihilating Afghanistan with nuclear bombs today to put a quick end to the bin Laden conflict. The US always contributes humanitarian aid to the victims of wars it participates in (not all the wars are STARTED by the US), and if it's not "enough", well, there's only so much to go around and still maintain the homeland. At least we give a little something.