lol I am actually quite fluent in "dog" I may be young but I am a very proficiant trainer, and the person most people go to for training help etc.. it sounds like you follow a lot of Jan Fennels stuff? to be honest I dont much like her, I am a Suzanne Clothier follower, with my dogs anyway Fennels methodes dont do squat, but Cloithers works within minutes. do you know if there is anything about SA is Cloithiers book "bones would rain from the sky" ? I have the book currently but I have not read the whole thing yet as I have exams lol I appreciate your taking the time to post all that, I may know it but that does not mean others do lol and thank both of you for the second and third opinions, that is what I needed to confirm my suspisions, as the first time I asked a long time ago everyone said it was nothing and I was not as involved in dog training at the time so I just tossed the idea out the window.