Dog Races [Archive]

cali

10-22-2004, 12:51 PM

And don't fool yourself into thinking that doesn't happen. If anyone believes that they all are treated wonderfully, are all placed in loving homes at the end of their "careers", then they’re stupid or just have their head in the sand.

gee I must have my head in the sand because I know litterally HUNDREDS of greyhound owners, rescuers, and racers, who have all prooved that the greys ARE well takin care of etc.. if you think those dogs are muscular and have exellent structures, and are healthy from being treated horrably etc.. you are the one who has there head in the sand :rolleyes: there ARE greys that are treated badly, there are dogs of ALL breeds that are tyreated badly, there is aboslutly ZERO differnce between greys and any other breed of dog in this respect. the dogs are rarly in danger of veing put down, a kennel will keep the dogs until they find a rescue for them, some are put down yes, and some of every other breed on earth are put down for lack of homes too. the dog LOVE to race, its what they were bred to do, RUN. its exactly the same story as some people have with Flyball, people will say its inhumane, the dogs dont enjoy it, its dangerous. all words, no truth.

micki76

10-22-2004, 01:20 PM

Listen up Cali. For once I think you need to realize that there are people, who deal with this crap every day, day in day out. Believe it or not, they know a great deal more than you do on this subject. Somehow I seriously doubt that you personally know HUNDREDS of people involved in Greyhound racing, care, rescue, etc. If you do in fact, know SOME people that do care for their animals correctly, good for you, them, and the dogs.

But let me tell you this, you have NO IDEA that rescuers see on a daily friggin' basis with this industry. These dogs are killed, cast aside, left to die, and then the lucky ones are euthanized. Some are beaten to death. Some are starved. Their care is usually no better than at a puppy mill, unless they're a winning dog or a dog that shows promise that it will one day be a winner.

You just have no clue. :( Grow up and realize that you DON'T know everything about every thing. Open yourself up to learning something once in a while instead of acting like your opinion and "experience" is the only thing that's real.

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 01:24 PM

VERY well said Micki.

If all Greys were treated well, then how come EVERYTIME I go to the shelter there are tons of 1-2 year old Grey's there -- "retired racers".

Gee, I sure hope when I "retire" my family doesn't just toss me out.

Possibly, there are SOME racing Greys that are treated well, but certainly the majority isn't.

cali

10-22-2004, 01:31 PM

I belong to greyhound message board and I have been there far longer then I have been on this board, I have learned a great deal from these people who are by the way rescuers as well. I hardly think I know all, but just because I have differning opinions hardly means I dont know anything, frankly I will continue to research and form my OWN opinions, which I have been doing for years now. I dont follow the crowd, and I dont buy into so called "statistics" that people make up on the spot. and frankly YOU are the one that needs to wake up and see things from another perspective, evedently you are to narow minded to look on the other side :rolleyes:

lute

10-22-2004, 01:52 PM

i voted i've never been,but would like to see what it was like only beacuase i wanna see what all the fuss is about. i don't like them,but i want to see for myself one of these days.

GraciesMommy

10-22-2004, 02:04 PM

Didn't mean to stir anything up here..I live 20 minutes from the biggest greyhound track in the country and people are always talking about it. I have never been and don't know a thing about it other than what I have read on the web. Just thought it was an interesting poll.

aly

10-22-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by micki76
Double ditto.

:(

I am utterly disgusted by any "sport" or "entertainment" that uses an innocent animal, then euthanizes (at best) the "athletes" once they're used up or don't perform well enough. And don't fool yourself into thinking that doesn't happen. If anyone believes that they all are treated wonderfully, are all placed in loving homes at the end of their "careers", then they’re stupid or just have their head in the sand.

Disgusting.

Agreed :(

Uabassoon

10-22-2004, 03:31 PM

Ok Cali so if these dogs are treated so well and live such happy lives why do they need these 100s of resucers that you talk about? It's because these animals are bred for entertainment. Then if it weren't for all these rescuers that you talk about the dogs would be put down. I've had a few friends who have adopted ex-racers and everytime I go to a pet event the greyhound rescue is there and they talk about how many of them are put to sleep and the lucky ones get rescued and places into homes. Think about it, if it wasn't a problem would we really need all those people trying to rescue them?

Jadapit

10-22-2004, 03:51 PM

I dont think I would ever go to a dog race because I believe its mostly all about the money (the gambling) We live in Colo and Colorado Springs has a greyhound track. We were up there visiting a couple of years ago and I was looking in there paper and I kid you not there were pages and pages of greyhound rescues in just one of their papers.

If the dogs are loved and treated so well then how come there were so many rescues for them!?! I'm sure a lot are probably treated good and some people do race them for the love of the sport but there are probably many more that do it just for the money. IMHO anyway.....

BitsyNaceyDog

10-22-2004, 03:56 PM

I live just a short ways (about an hour and a half) from Daytona where they have greyhound racing. I have seen several dogs from off the track that have retired due to injury. A broken leg is certainly not uncommon. At the boarding facility I work at we board several retired greyhounds from the track and they ALL (and I do mean all) have bear butts from being in crates for such long periods of time. Also my best friend has been talking to greyhound rescue about adopting one from the track, and she probably will be soon. She seen and heard some horrible things that these dogs have been through. I am for one totally 100% against dog racing, it's a sick sport. If they love their dog and want them to run they can put them agility classes and keep them off the track.

Originally posted by K9soul
I'm sure some of the people involved in racing greyhounds treat their dogs wonderfully, the best of everything, and so on. I don't think anyone disputes that. But let's get realistic here, all racers don't race because the dogs love to run and they want to see their dogs have a good time. They race to make money, it's part of the gambling industry, and don't even try to tell me that it isn't true that for some racers the dollar is top priority. And I'm sure that a racing greyhound message board will look a lot different than a greyhound rescue board. I also doubt that the people who treat their greyhounds badly would be involved in a greyhound msg board, just like you don't see people who hate and abuse dogs join Pet Talk.

I agree completely.

Karen

10-22-2004, 04:15 PM

I wish all greyhounds were treated as you describe, Cali, but know that it is not always the case.

Just as all breeders are not puppy mills, or evil back yard breeders, I am sure some greyhounds are treated well even during their racing career.

I have, however, seen horrific photos. And when I met my first rescued greyhound, many years ago, it was very sad. She was terrified of any loud noise. Her owner explained that she had never seen grass, and was afraid of it when she first was rescued, which made house-breaking her a challenge. She was leary of the furniture until she learned that a couch is a soft place to nap! She was very sweet, once I got down to her level and she learned I wasn't a threat, but every time another person walked by, she'd cower. Her owner said at home, she was much braver and more normal, but she had been taking her out to get her more (much-needed) socialization.

If dog races were held for the joy of it, and no animals were overbred, injured, starved, confined, undersocialized, euthanized when they didn't "win" races, if there were no horror stories associated with the track, if dog racing didn't just seem like another way for problem gamblers to lose money and not be at home, then maybe I would consider someday attending a race. Until then, I will not.

I have seen sight-hounds like greyhounds running for the joy of it, and it is a beauiful sight.

aly

10-22-2004, 04:27 PM

That reminds me of a show I saw on animal planet about a woman who rescues retired greyhounds. She talked about the extensive process of introducing the dogs to different textured floors, grass, carpet, everything! It is quite an extensive process when a dog has been raised in a kennel. I have had a few fosters myself who were scared of the world because of growing up in similar circumstances. It is almost a full time job to try to socialize them to the world when they are past their critical socialization period.

Twisterdog

10-22-2004, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by cali
gee I must have my head in the sand because I know litterally HUNDREDS of greyhound owners, rescuers, and racers, who have all prooved that the greys ARE well takin care of etc.. if you think those dogs are muscular and have exellent structures, and are healthy from being treated horrably etc.. you are the one who has there head in the sand :rolleyes: there ARE greys that are treated badly, there are dogs of ALL breeds that are tyreated badly, there is aboslutly ZERO differnce between greys and any other breed of dog in this respect. the dogs are rarly in danger of veing put down, a kennel will keep the dogs until they find a rescue for them, some are put down yes, and some of every other breed on earth are put down for lack of homes too. the dog LOVE to race, its what they were bred to do, RUN. its exactly the same story as some people have with Flyball, people will say its inhumane, the dogs dont enjoy it, its dangerous. all words, no truth.

You are an incredibly naive and pretentious child. I don't know where you heard this nonsense, or if you made it up, but do us all a favor and don't post total crap and try to pass it off as something you are some sort of expert in.

ANYONE with even the slightest experience with dog racing knows the horrors of it. EVERY racing greyhound will be killed when it no longer a winner, unless a rescue group can take it. A racing kennel will NEVER keep dogs until they find a home. That is far and away the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. It would make me laugh if it wasn't so infuriating. I fostered racing greyhounds for years in Colorado. Not ONE of them was treated well or loved, and ALL of them were literally snatched from death's door.

If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not comment. Do us all a favor.

Uabassoon

10-22-2004, 05:54 PM

Well said Twister!

GoldenRetrLuver

10-22-2004, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by micki76
Listen up Cali. For once I think you need to realize that there are people, who deal with this crap every day, day in day out. Believe it or not, they know a great deal more than you do on this subject. Somehow I seriously doubt that you personally know HUNDREDS of people involved in Greyhound racing, care, rescue, etc. If you do in fact, know SOME people that do care for their animals correctly, good for you, them, and the dogs.

But let me tell you this, you have NO IDEA that rescuers see on a daily friggin' basis with this industry. These dogs are killed, cast aside, left to die, and then the lucky ones are euthanized. Some are beaten to death. Some are starved. Their care is usually no better than at a puppy mill, unless they're a winning dog or a dog that shows promise that it will one day be a winner.

You just have no clue. :( Grow up and realize that you DON'T know everything about every thing. Open yourself up to learning something once in a while instead of acting like your opinion and "experience" is the only thing that's real.

Thank you. I completely agree.

In response to the original question -- No, I would never attend one in a million years.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 08:04 PM

WOW, just WOW

If you take a look at my user name you will see that I'm a big greyhound fan :)

Have six that I share my home with. Have fostered several more, assist in greyhound adoption with several local and not so local greyhound ADOPTION groups.

There is a major ignorance going on here I see, and it's not the from the post of Cali :D

First off there is no such breed out there that you can use the word ALL on so I will leave that out ;)

Of my six hounds 4 of them came DIRECTLY from the racing kennels and came into my home as if they owned it.

Sure there are websites out there that will show you horrors of greyhound racing but have you looked at some of the adoption boards from greyhounds that there ADOPTIVE owners and the things that some of these people have done to there dogs?

Yes greyhounds are breed for racing which in turn is a money making business.

You can not force a greyhound to run if they don't want to. It's just that plain and simple.

Do I know what I'm talking about? H*ll YES I DO

I started out as a leadout at a greyhound track in Ct, then moved on to becoming a greyhound trainer, and now I raise, race and find forever homes for EVERY GREYHOUND IN MY KENNELS!!!

I've done dog grooming, dog obediance, agility, and now greyhounds.

Have a look at a website that will show you a bit more information about greyhound ownership from racing owner
Teamgreyhound (http://www.teamgreyhound.us)

If you want to really learn about it and not just shoot off at the mouth about things that you know little to nothing about.

Please feel free to contact me and I am more than happy to share my experinces with you all :D

There is nothing ALL good or ALL bad in anything. That is just the facts of it long and short!

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 08:11 PM

The only thing people have said here is that not ALL Greyhounds are treated as pets or as family as yours are.... but a LARGE majority are put down, or thrown out as if they were a broken down change machine.
The many greyhounds saw in shelters everyday are proof of that.
I don't see a bit of ignorance in that, but whatever you say.

Until I see EVERY dog treated as family and treated as they should be, instead of laying in exhaustion on the cement in the shelter, I do not approve of this "sport", nor would I want to attend a race.
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v95/simnala/March11-12/27.jpg
One of the MANY i've seen at my shelter.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 08:18 PM

Here is what I was talking about. This is IGNORANCE!!

Just the key word rescuers, did these people go to the track late at night, sneak into the kennels, sweep the dog out of there crates and take them to an undisclosed location that the owners of the hounds didn't know about?

HELL NO!!! These dogs were handed over to the adoption groups by people who care about the hounds. Hell the owners probably send the groups a donation that no one talks about because they don't want people knowing about the caring greyhound owners!!

If you have a problem with the fact that the dogs run and the owners make money that's one thing but to claim that these dogs are treated poorly is a whole other story.

Until you go to a track and see the real workings of it then I dont' think that you should go spouting off at the mouth.

Doesn't people realize that greyhounds will get homes quicker by saying how poorly they are treated than. YOu know that whole pity thing?

So that's what I'm saying, educate yourselves a bit that's all ;)

Originally posted by micki76
.

But let me tell you this, you have NO IDEA that rescuers see on a daily friggin' basis with this industry. These dogs are killed, cast aside, left to die, and then the lucky ones are euthanized. Some are beaten to death. Some are starved. Their care is usually no better than at a puppy mill, unless they're a winning dog or a dog that shows promise that it will one day be a winner.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 08:22 PM

HMMMM, exhaustion? LOL that is almost tooooo funny.

If I thought the dog was laying there due to exhaustion I would think that his/her tongue would be haning out and he/she wouldn't look too aleart.

Who's to say that someone that adopted that dog didn't drop it off because they didn't want it any more? Who's to say that dog came from a race track?

I just picked up to greys two weeks ago that the adoptive parents didn't want them anymore and just left them tied in the back yard.

Is that the greyhound racing industrys fault? NO, maybe it's the adoption groups fault? Maybe it's just an @sshole owner?

Nice looking hound though :)

Originally posted by Kfamr
The only thing people have said here is that not ALL Greyhounds are treated as pets or as family as yours are.... but a LARGE majority are put down, or thrown out as if they were a broken down change machine.
The many greyhounds saw in shelters everyday are proof of that.
I don't see a bit of ignorance in that, but whatever you say.

Until I see EVERY dog treated as family and treated as they should be, instead of laying in exhaustion on the cement in the shelter, I do not approve of this "sport", nor would I want to attend a race.
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v95/simnala/March11-12/27.jpg
One of the MANY i've seen at my shelter.

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
HMMMM, exhaustion? LOL that is almost tooooo funny.

If I thought the dog was laying there due to exhaustion I would think that his/her tongue would be haning out and he/she wouldn't look too aleart.

Ya think that maybe that picture was taken in a shelter and not the track? There is only ONE greyhound track in the US that I know has a cement bottom to the crates and that is in JCKC.

Nice looking hound though :)

Maybe because it was cold out.
They rarely move at the shelter. And when they try, it's VERY hard for them. They all come with their "racing names"... all at around the age of 1-2. If their owners honestly cared about them they wouldn't dump them off at the shelter, they'd keep them and love them even if they can't race anymore.

I've even met a "retired racer" who as her description was raced, then when "she couldn't race any longer" was bred many times she was dumped at the shelter. All at the age of 2 years.
That's really a loving owner, huh?
NO. I'm not saying all greyhound owners an people who race them are like that, but until there are no longer "owners" like such I don't approve of the "sport".

YES... DUH. That's why I said that it was one of the many THAT I SAW AT THE SHELTER.
And it's there because it was dumped off like property.
I took the picture, i've been around many "retired racers"

dogs_4_me

10-22-2004, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v95/simnala/March11-12/27.jpg

How could anyone do something to such a sweet heart:(

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by dogs_4_me
How could anyone do something to such a sweet heart:(

I'm not sure.
I try to refrain myself from bawling everytime I visit the shelter.
In all of their descriptions it's something about "not good enough to race anymore, etc."

I really would like to adopt one, one of these days, but right now we're at our limit.

sammy101

10-22-2004, 08:49 PM

ive heard they need alot of TLC b/c lots of them arent used to being in a household,and being around people etc. I dont know if thats true or not,but i would LOVE to adopt atleast 2-3 retired racers.ive heard that they are wonderful family dogs,and i would love to have one.

ive never been to a Greyhound race,and i would never want to go.wehave a racetrack here in Houston and i get soo many sad thoughts everytime we drive by it:(
Kay-that dog is beautiful in your picture,do you know if he got adopted??

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by sammy101
Kay-that dog is beautiful in your picture,do you know if he got adopted??

Isn't she? That picture was taken in March, and I have not seen her since then, so i'm sure she got adopted. Fortunately, that shelter is a no-kill, but there are many which aren't. :(

KYS

10-22-2004, 08:52 PM

I am not informed on racing conditions etc.

Is this a respected organization or are they printing
un-truths?

Greyhound protection league

http://www.greyhounds.org/gpl/contents/entry.html

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 08:53 PM

I really don't feel the need to get into a P*ssing match with you. But please let me point out a few minor flaws in your statements.

Greyhounds don't hit the tracks until they are 18 months old. Sure there are a few that will go to the tracks at the age of 15 or 16 months old but those are few and far.

You don't know if the dog can run until it is running against the competition at the track so how would you decied at the age of 12months old that they are no good?

Heck they just start training at 12 months old.

The discription of the retired racers that you talk about just doesn't quite make sence either. Not calling you a lier but it just doesn't seem to add up.

If the dog went to the track she would have been on hormones. Kinda like the birth control pills. So if she was at the track for even a couple of months she would have been like 20 months old.

Then when they come off the track they don't go right into season. So say it takes a few months for them to come into season.

So now she's 22- 24 months old. So now she's two. She is then bred and that is a 63 justation period. Another two months pass for her to have her pups. Now she is around 2yrs 2months old. Now she has to be with those pups for another 2 months for the pups to nurse. Now she's 2yrs 4 months old.

Now the breeder of this dog has no clue how her pups are going to turn out as racers. He/she thought enough about her to breed her why would he just dump her off at the pound/shelter?

Oh and about the DUH part on your post. Very classy ;)

If you would take another look at my post you will see that I was fixing my error while you were posting your ever so nice comment :)

I'm human and make errors.

As far as saying "until there are no longer "owners" like such"

Well hell, we could say that about people that adopt any animal.

Until there are no more adopters that won't abandon, abuse, starve, mistreat, there pets then we won't adopt out animals and all should be put down. :( Kinda sad huh?

Doesn't make a difference to me if you like greyhound racing, aprove of it, hate it or love it.

To each there own, Just sharing my tid bit of information from the inside :D

Originally posted by Kfamr
Maybe because it was cold out.
They rarely move at the shelter. And when they try, it's VERY hard for them. They all come with their "racing names"... all at around the age of 1-2. If their owners honestly cared about them they wouldn't dump them off at the shelter, they'd keep them and love them even if they can't race anymore.

I've even met a "retired racer" who as her description was raced, then when "she couldn't race any longer" was bred many times she was dumped at the shelter. All at the age of 2 years.
That's really a loving owner, huh?
NO. I'm not saying all greyhound owners an people who race them are like that, but until there are no longer "owners" like such I don't approve of the "sport".

YES... DUH. That's why I said that it was one of the many THAT I SAW AT THE SHELTER.
And it's there because it was dumped off like property.
I took the picture, i've been around many "retired racers"

sammy101

10-22-2004, 08:53 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
Isn't she? That picture was taken in March, and I have not seen her since then, so i'm sure she got adopted. Fortunately, that shelter is a no-kill, but there are many which aren't. :(

oh thats good!:) i wish all shelters were no-kill:(

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 09:01 PM

In no way am I lying aobut what i've posted. That's what i've read off of MANY shelter info pages for the greys.

I even spoke to a lady once, who had a gorgeous brindle male Grey. She had rescued him and he was a retired racer. I spoke to her for a very long time about the racing issue, and as a greyhound lover she disapproved of the "sport" 100%.

Like I said, not ALL greyhounds are treated like yours are.

As far as my post being "Very classy", I thought the same of you spewing off at us and calling us ignorant in your very first when you know absolutely NOTHING about anyone on this board.
There are MANY people on this board to volunteer and spend their lives at shelters and know first hand what happens to they retired racers.

I never said you didn't make errors, but the way you responded to me was the same exact thing you recieved.

I'd love to see each and every breed of dog out of the shelter.
Greyhounds and Pit Bulls make up a majority of the pure bred dogs in the shelter I visit often. Each and everyone of them comes with a heartbreaking and disgusting story.

-------

Yeah, Jess, I think ya right. ;)

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:04 PM

Yes Cali came over to another message board and mentioned what was going on over here :)

I'm not here to upset anyone just wanted to shed a bit of light from another point of view.

I've had all sorts of other pets through out my life. I've owned a GSD that came from a shelter, I've taken in every type of unwanted animal you can imagine.

I love all animals, big and small, short and tall, hair and no hair.

Makes no difference to me. They all deserve good homes that love them, care for the, and treat them the best that a human can treat an animal.

Greyhounds make wonderful pets. There are so many misinformation about greyhounds it's sad :(

Greyhounds don't need a lot of exercise. There content to lay around and sleep most of the day away.

You don't need a fenced in yard to have a greyhound. They do just fine taking walks.

Most greyhounds are safe with small animals and children

Greyhounds are some of the healthiest dogs around because they are athletes for the first few years they are in good shape, good heart, lungs, no hip dysplasia like so many other breeds of dogs.

Greyhounds shed very little and are know to do well for people who are alergic to most other dogs. Because of there low body fat they don't tend to have the dander that other dogs have

Greyhounds don't take up a lot of space. They can curle up into a tiny ball and fit three to a normal size couch. Ask me I know I have six that let me share there house with them :)

I could go on and on about how wonderful these dogs are but I will stop there for now :)

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 09:06 PM

May I have a link to this other board so that I can look around? :)

I don't believe anyone here is misinformed about the breed.
I myself love the breed...I love all breeds. I think they are one of the most gorgeous breeds. Many have said that on of my dogs looks to be part grey.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:09 PM

OK let me introduce myself,
My name is Heather and I live in Gulfport,Mississippi

I volunteer for GPA LA also have helped out GFGC, GRR, Greyhound Crossroads in SC

All of which are greyhound adoption groups.

Just last week I went to the local H.S. and picked up a whippet and brought it to one of the local greyhound adoption groups. Also picked up two adopted greyhounds from a home that the people no longer wanted and they left them tied outside, on an over head run, with choke chains on.

I don't know Cali other than a post on another message board.

Just trying to put out some first hand information.

Take it for what it is or leave it. Makes no difference to me :)

Originally posted by K9soul
I'm guessing "greysandmoregreys" is one of Cali's friends recruited over here to dispell the stupid myth of mistreated and ill used greyhounds. :rolleyes:

Come to think of it the spelling in this sentence looks awfully similar to Cali's

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:11 PM

The other board is:
greytalk (http://www.greytalk.com)

This is a greyhound board filled with greyhound adopters, some breeder, many greyhound adoption groups are on this board, some racing peps, and some people who have no greyhound just love the breed.

Please take a look and see what is really going on :)

Sorry one more thing, Take a look under cute and funny you will see some of the best pictures around.

Also I go by the same user name over there :)

Karen

10-22-2004, 09:17 PM

Welcome to Pet Talks, greysandmore! Everyone here wishes that there were NO bad owners, of greyhounds or other animals. That there was no need for animal shelters, other than a a brief resting place between good owners. That no dog was ever neglected, no cat dumped, no domesticated rabbit let loose to "make it in the wild," and on and on.

Just wanted to make that clear. We've all come from many different perspectives, backgrounds, nationalities, political stripes (or spots) and had many different experiences, and what we do have in common is the love of animals.

Are your greyhounds "leaners?" I've met one that was a serious "glad to meet you, now let me sit on your foot and lean on you"-type - but he had been off the racetrack and in a home for several years at that point.

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 09:21 PM

Thanks for giving me that link.
It's nice to see what they're saying about us, since they know absolutely nothing aobut any of us! :)

Especially this:

Ummm.... I see absolutly no grey pets there... all other pooch pics. They obviously are talking out of their *eyes* (nice).

Since no one who has posted yet, doesn't own a Grey, it obviously means we know nothing, right? :rolleyes:

Uabassoon

10-22-2004, 09:29 PM

This is what I don't understand. Let's assume that everything you say is right. And that greyhounds live happy racetrack lives and so on. To me it just seems wrong that a person would breed an animal for profit, then once it's done making a profit they hand it over to a rescue for someone else to take care of so they can do it all over again.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:29 PM

I have six hounds :D

As I've said before there is good and bad in everything.

There are people out there that race there dogs for no money. It's called coursing.

I've been a greyhound trainer, I know many greyhound trainers. We love these dogs. There is just no way not to.

Yes there are bad people, yes dogs get put down. I never said and never will say that this doesn't happen.

It's just not wide spread as some believe. that's all

Four of my six came straight from the race track. Warm loving dogs scared of nothing. Yes there were things that they didn't know about. Stairs for one thing but how many dogs are born and raised in a home that doesn't have stairs? lots

My GSD at 6 months old had never had a collar on her, never knew what a leash was, didn't know stairs, didn't understand that humans were good and nice, warm and loving.

It can and does happen to every breed out there. sad :(

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:35 PM

Responsable breeding and placement is what each and every breeder should do.

Breed only good quality to good quality and then make sure that there is a program set up for you to find the dogs homes.

Some in the greyhound industy do this some do not :) :(

When you say hand them over to rescue for someone to take care of.

Greyhound owners have tried to place the dogs themselves. Often the adoption groups frown on this because the breeder didn't do a home vistit, didn't do things properly like an adoption group would.

Some owners pay for everything for the hound to find it's forever home and some don't. Some pay part some don't.

The reason I send the dogs that I own to adoption groups is that they are darn good at what they do. Better than I would be.
I've tried to do the placements myself and don't seem to do a very good job.

Originally posted by Uabassoon
This is what I don't understand. Let's assume that everything you say is right. And that greyhounds live happy racetrack lives and so on. To me it just seems wrong that a person would breed an animal for profit, then once it's done making a profit they hand it over to a rescue for someone else to take care of so they can do it all over again.

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 09:39 PM

The thing I don't get is... why breed a dog, race it, then when it no longer can race -- get rid of it?

Do people not get attached to these dogs, love these dogs? Why would they want to get rid of them?

It's just like the idiots who breed Pits, fight them, then if they lose they dump them to die if not already dead. I don't think anything could be AS bad as that, but IMO very similar.

I depise people getting "rid" of dogs unless it's for a VERY good reason, such a they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, let alone another life.

aly

10-22-2004, 09:46 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
I'm guessing "greysandmoregreys" is one of Cali's friends recruited over here to dispell the stupid myth of mistreated and ill used greyhounds. :rolleyes:

Come to think of it the spelling in this sentence looks awfully similar to Cali's

The very first thought that came into my mind was it was way too big of a coincidence that this person joined today.

*edit* Ugh, finally had time to read this whole thread. I just read what they had to say over there on that board. Nasty.

greysandmoregreys

10-22-2004, 09:47 PM

We do get attached to the dogs. But do you think it would be best for these people to take the dogs back to the farms to live out there lives or to send them on to homes where there will be two or three other dogs to share a home with?

If I could take each and every one of my dogs home I would but how happy would they be if I had 50 dogs living in my house?

I feel it's best to place them with people that will enjoy them as much as I would and will have the time to give every dog in there home.

It's a great day when I hear from someone that has adopted a dog from me and tell's me how much they love this hound and how it has changed there life.

I had one hound that lives in a Nursing home. Have another hound that watches out for a woman that has seziures and lets her know when she is about to have one and nudges her until she sits down.

I would never have met so many wonderful people who love these dogs just as every bit as much as I did if I didn't allow these dogs to be adopted.

If I could take them all I never would because I know that there would never be enough time in every day to love these dogs like there new adoptive homes do with just a few animals in there homes.

Originally posted by Kfamr
The thing I don't get is... why breed a dog, race it, then when it no longer can race -- get rid of it?

Do people not get attached to these dogs, love these dogs? Why would they want to get rid of them?

It's just like the idiots who breed Pits, fight them, then if they lose they dump them to die if not already dead. I don't think anything could be AS bad as that, but IMO very similar.

I depise people getting "rid" of dogs unless it's for a VERY good reason, such a they aren't capable of taking care of themselves, let alone another life.

Kfamr

10-22-2004, 09:50 PM

But WHY keeping breeding these dogs, until theres 50 or so that you own or have to get rid of?

There's so many other breeds and dogs already that need homes that could bring as much, if not more, joy into the lives of these people who have obtained these greyhounds.

I just do not agree with getting a dog and then getting rid of it.... and I don't think i'll ever understand the concept of such so I think we should end it at just that. :)

DogLover9501

10-22-2004, 09:50 PM

I don't want to get into all of this, but...

My dad's best friend Randy and his wife just recently adopted a "retired" greyhound....

He is only 3 years old, has scars and is way underweight, the place told them that he will probably gain 30+ pounds now because he's not racing anymore, meaning he is very underweight.

He is very nervous and shy, they have owned him for 2-3 weeks and Randy just recently was able to pet him.

He doesn't seem like he was treated very well, and was obviously part of someones life for 3 entire years and was just tossed out.

I agree with Micki, Twisterdog, Kay and whoever else who said things along those lines.

Uabassoon

10-22-2004, 09:56 PM

The more I read your posts the more I begin to get upset. It seems like you have these greyhounds for your own pleasure and not so much theirs.

Yes, I enjoy the breed very much. I work for a pet sitting agency and have cared for several rescue greyhounds (just giving you some background so you know that I do know and understand this breed. Maybe not as well as you, but I do have some experience with them and love them as a breed).

But I just can't imagine breeding dogs for a sport that is just for your interest. Yes, I know greyhounds love to run, and I enjoy watching them run. That's why running sports such as coursing were made so an owner can bond with their dog and do something their dogs enjoy. Even if you take the best care of your dogs while they are with you I don't agree with your breeding an animal so you can be entertained with it.

This is why I don't support greyhound racings, even if a breeder takes great care of their dog I don't agree in supporting a business that would treat their animals as if they were property.

I do realize that not every greyhound is abused, and I know many of them have happy endings. Many shelter dogs have happy endings, but that doesn't mean a person should breed dogs then go take them there because they can get adopted and have a happy life.

micki76

10-22-2004, 11:09 PM

Ironically I met a rescued racer this evening at Petsmart when we went to get Tank a snail. Her name was Daisy and she was sickly thin (still needing to gain 15+ lbs), had a to the bone injury on her right front leg, and had a scary looking old injury to her left shoulder that was never treated and thus the muscle atrophied and so the formerly broken bone healed so that it sticks out. She was scratched and bruised all over. She's been in her foster home for 2 weeks and is adjusting to all the things that she should have been acclimated to as a puppy, such as furniture, mirrors, doorbells, air conditioner noises, etc.

This dog was horribly abused, even if she was never hit.

The husband is the President of Greyhounds Unlimited. I doubt he's lying about the atrocities these animals face. I doubt he's lying about what he deals with EVERY DAY. What he sees on a DAILY BASIS.

Why would ANYONE continue to breed animals KNOWING they’ll just turn them over rescuers in the end? WHY?
It’s all about the almighty dollar.

SICK.

Here's a pic of Daisy from their website:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/micki76/Daisy.jpg

Amber

10-22-2004, 11:48 PM

Originally posted by aly
That reminds me of a show I saw on animal planet about a woman who rescues retired greyhounds. She talked about the extensive process of introducing the dogs to different textured floors, grass, carpet, everything! It is quite an extensive process when a dog has been raised in a kennel. I have had a few fosters myself who were scared of the world because of growing up in similar circumstances. It is almost a full time job to try to socialize them to the world when they are past their critical socialization period.

I seen this too. I would never go to one. ever.

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 12:30 AM

Quoted from Greyhound Unlimited web page
"We take a neutral stand on greyhound racing"

How could anyone take a neutral stance on greyhound racing with all the atrosities that he told you?

Makes me wonder?

Also quoted from there web site where you got the picture:
"Daisy's foster mom tells us:

Daisy came to us from the Forney Road Animal Shelter in Dallas. She had been found wandering loose and a kind soul picked her up and brought her to the shelter."

Now where does it say anywhere that this was a race greyhound? It talks nothing about ear tattos which an NGA registered greyhound would have.

Mickey you stated that it was a retired racer and there you were wrong.

For anyone else that would like to take a look at the whole story about Daisy you can click here:

How can you even be sure that this was a race greyhound? Could have been someone breeding greyhounds for pets, or an
AKC hound, or a coursing dog.Daisy's whole story (http://http://www.greyhoundsunlimited.org/adopting/specialneeds/Daisy.shtml)

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 12:42 AM

Do you not think that these dogs enjoy running? Do you not think these dog enjoy what they do?

Go to a greyhound kennel on race day and take a look you will have a whole different outlook on things then.

These dog LOVE, let me say that again LOVE what they do!!

For my own pleasure? Do you not own your own pets for your own pleasure as well as theres?

If you say that the only reason that you own a pet if solely for there own pleasure and that you get nothing out of it then you shouldn't be an animal owner. Just that plain and simple/

As I said before and I will say again. If you don't agree with it that's fine. Heck my own mother doesn't agree with it but if it's going to be done best to be done right.

So with what your saying that there should be no pure bed dogs. No dogs bred unless you plan on keeping every dog that you bring into this world.

We would be missing out on a great number of breeds if this were true. We would be left with greyhounds, the only dog mentioned in the Bible, and what maybe a mastiff?

Originally posted by Uabassoon
The more I read your posts the more I begin to get upset. It seems like you have these greyhounds for your own pleasure and not so much theirs.

Yes, I enjoy the breed very much. I work for a pet sitting agency and have cared for several rescue greyhounds (just giving you some background so you know that I do know and understand this breed. Maybe not as well as you, but I do have some experience with them and love them as a breed).

But I just can't imagine breeding dogs for a sport that is just for your interest. Yes, I know greyhounds love to run, and I enjoy watching them run. That's why running sports such as coursing were made so an owner can bond with their dog and do something their dogs enjoy. Even if you take the best care of your dogs while they are with you I don't agree with your breeding an animal so you can be entertained with it.

This is why I don't support greyhound racings, even if a breeder takes great care of their dog I don't agree in supporting a business that would treat their animals as if they were property.

I do realize that not every greyhound is abused, and I know many of them have happy endings. Many shelter dogs have happy endings, but that doesn't mean a person should breed dogs then go take them there because they can get adopted and have a happy life.

DogLover9501

10-23-2004, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
Also quoted from there web site where you got the picture:
"Daisy's foster mom tells us:

Daisy came to us from the Forney Road Animal Shelter in Dallas. She had been found wandering loose and a kind soul picked her up and brought her to the shelter."

Now where does it say anywhere that this was a race greyhound? It talks nothing about ear tattos which an NGA registered greyhound would have.

Mickey you stated that it was a retired racer and there you were wrong.

For anyone else that would like to take a look at the whole story about Daisy you can click here:

How can you even be sure that this was a race greyhound? Could have been someone breeding greyhounds for pets, or an
AKC hound, or a coursing dog.Daisy's whole story (http://http://www.greyhoundsunlimited.org/adopting/specialneeds/Daisy.shtml)

I don't think it stated that she was a retired racer because isn't the entire rescue for retired racers??

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 01:20 AM

NOPE, most if not ALL, greyhound adoption groups and rescue groups will take in any greyhound weather that be a retired racer or a greyhound that is in a shelter with ear tattoes or not.

Several groups will also take in lurchers which for those of you that don't know what a lurcher is they are a cross between a greyhound and another breed of dog. Could be a deerhound, or a coonhound.

Nomilynn

10-23-2004, 01:47 AM

I think the difference is at THIS particular board, the members here see taking in an animal as a lifelong commitment. Not our life, but theirs.

I do not have a dog at present, but I have in the past. The thought of keeping them just long enough to use them for ANY reason other than companionship makes me sick. I have two cats. The are now 2 and 3 years old. Did I get rid of them when they stopped looking like a kitten and hand them off to an adult cat rescue? No. And I wouldn't. They are my babies. How dare anyone take in any animal and then cast them off after a couple years. How do you think it would feel to a little kid if his or her parents adopted him out after he stopped fitting into cute little kid clothing, for example? Probably like a piece of crap.

Dogs can't reason like we do, and it's shameful that people who take in a greyhound somehow think it's ok to keep taking them in because they will eventually adopt them out to good homes. These animals love us UNCONDITIONALLY and it is absolutley wrong to get an animal knowing full well it won't be kept in the only home it's known for longer than a couple years.

And really, this is not the first time that Cali has recruited people from another board and used the other boards to talk crap about Pet Talk. Which is pretty disgusting in itself. I've been a member here for about 2 years. These are the most caring, loving, generous, giving, sensitive people I've ever met and they have helped me personally on a tremendous level. These people are my friends, and I respect them. I have little respect for people who come to this board for the soul purpose of calling them ignorant or uneducated.

So, if I'm wrong for having respect for people who take in an animal for LIFE, who care enough for their well being to offer an animal the stability, long term love and devotion it DESERVES then I'm perfectly happy being wrong.

cloverfdx

10-23-2004, 04:20 AM

A racing kennel will NEVER keep dogs until they find a home.
You have not met friends of mine then, the dogs they cannot rehome are ALWAYS kept on as companions, along with the ones they do NOT try to rehome because they cannot part with them.

Kfamr

10-23-2004, 06:33 AM

Gosh, I'm sick of this person talking to us as if we know NOTHING about dogs.

So with what your saying that there should be no pure bed dogs. No dogs bred unless you plan on keeping every dog that you bring into this world.

NO She DID NOT say that or even mention of it. Responsible Pure-Bred breeders don't keep their animals for years, now do they?

Personally, I treat my dogs as if they are my children. I do not have human children as of now, but my dogs are treated just as I would treat them, if not better.

IMO, what people do to these greyhounds (breed them, race them, dump them) would be like me having a child, raising it, and then giving it to someone else after I've taken it through soccer practice or something.

No one here is denying that greyhounds like to run, but do you honestly think it's the right thing to do to keep getting animals and then giving them off after they can no longer race, as if it were a piece of property?

It's like selling an old 1999 Chevorlet because you wanted a brand new 2005.

Originally posted by Nomilynn
And really, this is not the first time that Cali has recruited people from another board and used the other boards to talk crap about Pet Talk. Which is pretty disgusting in itself. I've been a member here for about 2 years. These are the most caring, loving, generous, giving, sensitive people I've ever met and they have helped me personally on a tremendous level. These people are my friends, and I respect them. I have little respect for people who come to this board for the soul purpose of calling them ignorant or uneducated.

Exactly!

Another person and I were talking about this last night.
She's talked so much crap about PT, then she goes and whines that she doesn't get many replies to her threads. WELL.. this is why most of the time people ignore her threads. No matter what we say to her, we're always wrong and she's always right, and nothing we say ever sinks in. And then eventually she goes and grabs one of her other board which she's "been a member of far longer than Pet Talk" which in reality this one was only joined a few days before PT was joined. :p

I've been on PT for almost 4 years. I've gained SO many friends - online and in real life - and the people here have shown me there is actual hope that there are GOOD people out there! I've never been to another board that i've been so pleased as I have with PT.

If PT wasn't such a great place.. I wouldn't have driven to Ohio TWICE this year to visit with them, nor would I be flying to Utah this Thanksgiving to spend time with one of my best PT friends. :p

Even after being on other boards the same amount of time as PT, i've never felt the same way as I do with Pet Talk.

GraciesMommy

10-23-2004, 07:37 AM

I haven't responded since starting this thread only to say that I didn't mean to start anything by it..once I started reading some of the responses.

Let me say this...in my ignorance I did not realize this was such a controversial subject...I only polled it because they were talking about it at work and it made me think it was a good poll to add..
I had no idea it would be such a heated topic. I apologize for my ignorance in asking it in the first place. I certainly did not mean for it to get out of hand.

I am new to pet forums (one month old) and I just wanted to contribute and get to know some people with the same interests as me....their furbabies/kids...I love this place and sure hope no one holds any hard feelings because of my mistake of starting this poll.

~big hugshttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v367/pamelagraves/GracieGraves.gif

Kfamr

10-23-2004, 07:45 AM

Pamela, please do not feel as if it were your fault.

It is not your fault at all that these people chose to respond in such a way.

You've done nothing wrong at all :)

Those pictures are adorable!

shutterbug0303

10-23-2004, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
We would be left with greyhounds, the only dog mentioned in the Bible, and what maybe a mastiff?

At least we could still have GREAT DANES!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D ;)

GD = grey + mastiff :D :D

*edit* Forgot to mention this...I am definately ANTI DOG-RACING! No way, no how!! Good going to everyone here @ PT who is standing tall for what they believe in!

senorita02

10-23-2004, 08:02 AM

I am utterly disgusted by any "sport" or "entertainment" that uses an innocent animal, then euthanizes (at best) the "athletes" once they're used up or don't perform well enough. And don't fool yourself into thinking that doesn't happen. If anyone believes that they all are treated wonderfully, are all placed in loving homes at the end of their "careers", then they’re stupid or just have their head in the sand.

Disgusting

I think so too:(
And so does FACE & RITA

I especially hate hearing of the Bull running in Spain, Rita is appauled TOO! "she is from Spain"

Love Greyhounds

10-23-2004, 08:21 AM

Let me say this...in my ignorance I did not realize this was such a controversial subject...I only polled it because they were talking about it at work and it made me think it was a good poll to add..I had no idea it would be such a heated topic. I apologize for my ignorance in asking it in the first place. I certainly did not mean for it to get out of hand.

I've had pet greyhounds since the late 80's, so I've heard and read the bashing for years. It gets much worse than this on greyhound boards. You have both ends of the spectrum and everything inbetween. There's the anti-racing faction, such as greyhoundracingsucks.com who will settle for nothing less than ending the "sport." There are pro-racing people who lurk on pet boards for the sole purpose of attacking anyone who says that atrocities still exist, and the industry needs improvement. If they can shove the dirt under the rug and drum up some recruits in the process, they're happy.

The truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. Most of us agree that the dogs love to run. There's no way you could know that these things are debated endlessly. You have a nice board here. Keep up the good work.

cali

10-23-2004, 09:39 AM

"been a member of far longer than Pet Talk" which in reality this one was only joined a few days before PT was joined.

and yet again, YOU dont know the whole story, greytalk is one of the first boards I ever joined, however I used to be Calico23 until my computer was hacked through another boards that is linked to greytalk, I had to resign up to greytalk, and the other board under a different name, AKC bc_girl. and when there was a glitch in the system my account was doubled 14 times somehow, so all but 1 were deleted, it was the wronge one though, so that got be bumped back to the beginning yet again.

cali

10-23-2004, 09:59 AM

And really, this is not the first time that Cali has recruited people from another board and used the other boards to talk crap about Pet Talk

oh, oh thats right, I went to another board when I was being flamed that NO good breeder in their right mind would feed home prepared or follow a limited vaccine protocal, yes I remeber now, this was back when I was the only one on the board that fed home prepared and follow a limited vaccine protocal, I told you guys that such breeders DID exist, and proved it by bringing over another person who knows these breeders personally, the one is her aunt, the other a friend of theirs. oh yes I have talked cr*p about pettalk before on other boards, I had to vent my anger somehow, obviously I cant vent it here lol and lets see, I have vented my anger on this board on another board ONCE. wow, I am a truely horrable person, that you cant change the mind of, and you cant make me see the light AKA any veiw that is'nt mine. by the way someing you guys should know, not that you care, is that I used to think klike you guys did, then I decided to do my own research instead of just going with the crowd, my mom tought me to do that, she tought me to form my own opinions before walking with the crowd, and I did, more research and EVERY topic I feel strongly about, I used to be on the other side of, cuz well everyone else was, then I formed my OWN opinions, and changed sides, I have been accused many many many times of lying and having never actually done any research, not in the thread itself, people say "good for you for having done research" then PM me calling me a lier who never researched a damn thing.

I shall just delete this last part as I have no doubt it will be picked apart, and I will be called a lier once again. by the ways NEVER have a lied on this board.

greytmomof3

10-23-2004, 10:03 AM

I know many in the racing industry that do hold their adoptable greyhounds until a group is found. I recently adopted a senior that spent two years on his owner's farm until a group took him. There is good and bad in any walk of life. However, to look at a group as a whole and label them bad, abusive, neglectful, etc. is irresponsible and narrow-minded. A friend of mine, a greyhound owner, has been in racing since the 70's and he has never put down a greyhound. I applaud him and all the responsible owners. I have had owner's donate money and food to our program. I have had them call me to find out where their greyhound was adopted. The racing industry is committed to achieving 100% adoption, I know that we are trying to help them get there.
Some adoption groups like to keep the AR agenda going. They believe it helps them with their adoption numbers. The "save a life" hook is too tempting for them.

aly

10-23-2004, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Love Greyhounds
I've had pet greyhounds since the late 80's, so I've heard and read the bashing for years. It gets much worse than this on greyhound boards. You have both ends of the spectrum and everything inbetween. There's the anti-racing faction, such as greyhoundracingsucks.com who will settle for nothing less than ending the "sport." There are pro-racing people who lurk on pet boards for the sole purpose of attacking anyone who says that atrocities still exist, and the industry needs improvement. If they can shove the dirt under the rug and drum up some recruits in the process, they're happy.

The truth probably lies somewhere between the two extremes. Most of us agree that the dogs love to run. There's no way you could know that these things are debated endlessly. You have a nice board here. Keep up the good work.

Thank you very much for your kind post and input! Welcome to PT :D

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 11:31 AM

Sick of me? Sorry that you feel that way. I enjoy being educated on all aspects of dogs. Weather that be poodles or greyhounds, Frenchies, or Great Danes.

I like to hear what all sides have to say. I enjoy expanding my mind and learning everything possible there is to learn.

Even if you take the best care of your dogs while they are with you I don't agree with your breeding an animal so you can be entertained with it.

AKC breeders do this all to often. Showing dogs, breeding to make the standard of the AKC "better" though I beg to differ on that after what has been done to most of the GSD out there kinda makes me sad. :(

Yes Purebred breeders do keep there dogs for years. They raise a litter of pups. Find a quality pup that meets the AKC standards, show the pup, then if the pup did well in the AKC shows then they will breed that dog to continue on the good lines, and then when the dog is done being bred most will retire the dog and find it a good home.

So what Uabasson is saying according to you that it's just greyhound breeders that shouldn't exsist and that all the other breeders out there are ok?

How about people that breed sled dogs? are they ok?
Or hunting dogs? are they ok?
Or the police that use there dogs for work?
Or the programs that use dogs for hearing impared or sight impaired? What do they do with the ones that don't make the programs? They find them homes. Now they bred them for one sole purpose and if the dog doesn't fit the bill the move it on to a home.

Is this ok?

I really am not trying to piss anyone off, really

I just want people to know that it's not all bad as so many seem to believe.

I started out AR, I believed all the things I heard and the pictures I saw. Until I took it upon myself to go to the inside and see for myself.

I feel I make a difference for the greyhounds. Every hound that is in my care weather that be that I own it or it races in my kennels will have a forever home. No question!!

So I feel I make a difference in these dogs lives

I don't want people adopting them because they feel bad for the dog I want them to adopt because they are an amazing breed.
We all know how pity adoptions go and most of the time it's not a good thing.

Originally posted by Kfamr
Gosh, I'm sick of this person talking to us as if we know NOTHING about dogs.

NO She DID NOT say that or even mention of it. Responsible Pure-Bred breeders don't keep their animals for years, now do they?

Personally, I treat my dogs as if they are my children. I do not have human children as of now, but my dogs are treated just as I would treat them, if not better.

IMO, what people do to these greyhounds (breed them, race them, dump them) would be like me having a child, raising it, and then giving it to someone else after I've taken it through soccer practice or something.

No one here is denying that greyhounds like to run, but do you honestly think it's the right thing to do to keep getting animals and then giving them off after they can no longer race, as if it were a piece of property?

It's like selling an old 1999 Chevorlet because you wanted a brand new 2005.

Exactly!

Another person and I were talking about this last night.
She's talked so much crap about PT, then she goes and whines that she doesn't get many replies to her threads. WELL.. this is why most of the time people ignore her threads. No matter what we say to her, we're always wrong and she's always right, and nothing we say ever sinks in. And then eventually she goes and grabs one of her other board which she's "been a member of far longer than Pet Talk" which in reality this one was only joined a few days before PT was joined. :p

I've been on PT for almost 4 years. I've gained SO many friends - online and in real life - and the people here have shown me there is actual hope that there are GOOD people out there! I've never been to another board that i've been so pleased as I have with PT.

If PT wasn't such a great place.. I wouldn't have driven to Ohio TWICE this year to visit with them, nor would I be flying to Utah this Thanksgiving to spend time with one of my best PT friends. :p

Even after being on other boards the same amount of time as PT, i've never felt the same way as I do with Pet Talk.

micki76

10-23-2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys

Mickey you stated that it was a retired racer and there you were wrong.

For anyone else that would like to take a look at the whole story about Daisy you can click here:

How can you even be sure that this was a race greyhound? Could have been someone breeding greyhounds for pets, or an
AKC hound, or a coursing dog.Daisy's whole story (http://http://www.greyhoundsunlimited.org/adopting/specialneeds/Daisy.shtml)

Because I TALKED to these people in person last night. Somehow they didn't strike me as liars. :rolleyes: The last time anything was updated on the site about Daisy was on 10/6. Could they have learned anymore information since then? Wow! Probably so! They told me they KNEW her former racing name. I can't remember it, but it was (something) in the Clover. I guess I could call and bother Steve, but they have an event today, and I'm sure he's too busy to bother with such trivial crap. I don't feel I have to prove anything to you, and even if I did, you aren't likely to change your mind based on anything I have to say. And I think we all know there's no way you're changing mine.

FYI-my name is spelled M I C K I. I'm not a boy.

Cali, your behavior on this board has been this way since I can remember. You wonder why people don't like you, or respond to your threads? Could it be your superior attitude that YOUR way is the ONLY way? Could it be that you look down your nose at anyone who DARES to disagree with you on what you think is right, which is usually against everything that most members of PT believe in?

You have no tact, child. None.

For anyone interested, here's the entire website: Greyhounds Unlimited (http://www.greyhoundsunlimited.org/index.htm)

Kfamr

10-23-2004, 12:28 PM

And for anyone who's interested to see where these people are coming from, the thread is here. (http://www.greytalk.com/~forums/index.php?showtopic=73078&st=0)

We're all close-minded and know absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:

Good going, Cali! You sure must be proud of yourself.

sammy101

10-23-2004, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
And for anyone who's interested to see where these people are coming from, the thread is here. (http://www.greytalk.com/~forums/index.php?showtopic=73078&st=0)

We're all close-minded and know absolutely nothing. :rolleyes:

Good going, Cali! You sure must be proud of yourself.

wow!:eek: thanks Kay for that link!I've read throught most of the posts on that thread,and i agree with you,they must think that we are close-minded and absolutely know nothing:rolleyes:

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 12:49 PM

So sorry about the misspelling of your name M-I-C-K-I
was just spelling it the same way as my aunt who spells it
M-I-C-K-Y and she's a female.

I never called anyone a lier, just put the information that was on the website and question that this person, the pres of the group, talked about how horrible the racing industry is but yet the group is concidered neutral.

Again who's to say that it wasn't the adoptive owner that lost there dog? That is all I'm trying to explain. Just because a greyhound is found wandering the streets doesn't mean that people inside the industry just turned the dog loose.

That is all I'm trying to say. Just because it's a greyhound doesn't mean that greyhound racing is to blame.

Take a look at this site
Emmie (http://www.halfwayhomegreyhounds.com/available1.html)

Look at Emmie, for someone that didn't read this they would think that this was something horrible that happened at a race track. But if you read it, it shows that this happened within foster care.

Things can be twisted to appear a certain way, but if you look and read you will see that that is not the case.

I'm just trying to inform that is all.

fuzziesngreys

10-23-2004, 12:49 PM

I haven't read much of what has been said past the first to pages, so forgive me if this is a repeat. I have been envolved in greyhound rescue for a couple years now, and I can see flaws in both the anti and pro groups that have been argued here. I'm kind of in the middle-I refuse to be pro or anti racing, I'm just pro greyhound. Cali-I can see where you're coming from, but not every greyhound does get into an adoption group. Not every kennel will hold them until a place in an adoption group opens up, and despite what the Pro racing people say, there are still greyhounds that suffer horrible deaths, get sold to labs, etc. But things are improving, adoption percents are going up. It's much better then it was 20 years ago. As for the anti racing-Not every greyhound is abuse, neglected, mistreated, but not everyone gets a high quality diet either. I've done alot of reasearch on this. It depends on the track, the trainer, and the owner as to how the dogs are treated. I've seen some greyhounds come off the track in amazing shape that have been very well taken care of. I've seen some come out of shelters and homes that where very poorly taken care of. The worse abuse case I have ever seen was a AKC greyhound that was abandoned by a breeder and ended up in a shelter-Not a racer, but I'm not even going to pretend that there aren't cases where racers are treated poorly-there are. Would I ever go to a race? I might once just so I could see what it was all about, but once would probably be enough. My biggest thing against greyhound racing is that there are far to many being bred, there's just not enough good home available for them, but they are far from the abused creatures some of the first posters made them sound like. No, they aren't spoiled rotten usually, they don't get fancy collars, beds, and toys like some of our own pets do, but look at how many people keep dogs chained in thier back yard, or in a kennel 24/7-Most greyhounds are far better off then those dogs!

guster girl

10-23-2004, 01:03 PM

It never ceases to amaze me the attitudes that people throw around in here. Wow, I just want to say I'm not pro- or anti-racing. I've never been to a dog race, but, I would go if invited. I see nothing wrong with the sport, just as I've never seen anything wrong with sledding. As long as the animals are treated well, then, I'm alright with both. I realize that a lot of the hounds still aren't, but, there are a lot of them that are very well taken care of. This thread has just been kindof sad. And, that's just my opinion, don't bash me for it. :)

K9soul

10-23-2004, 01:27 PM

fuzziesngreys, I really appreciate your input here. You know I often think on these big issues, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and that's what I tend to believe the most.

You said this:

My biggest thing against greyhound racing is that there are far to many being bred, there's just not enough good home available for them

I think that is a big part of what bothers me, and I also feel that is the case for a lot of AKC show breeding too. On the one hand, I certainly don't want to see any breeds stop existing, but on the other, the way it is now just anyone can go breed. I'd very much like to see some laws or restrictions put in place, such as a required license to breed to get that they must have inspections done and so on. I know it would be very complicated to put something like this in place, these are just musings and ideas on my part. I would love to see greyhounds run, such as a coursing event, but the races that are for the purpose of gambling, I don't have a desire to attend.

RMGAJAN

10-23-2004, 03:26 PM

I'm another "newbie" here. Name is Jan, from Denver, Colorado. I adopted my first 2 greyhounds 11 years ago. Then helped start an adoption group, Rocky Mountain Greyhound Adoption. I started out anti-racing, and ended up converting after I actually met people involved in racing and saw race kennels and how the dogs are treated. I found out I was told a lot of outright lies about the poor treatment. And if anyone can watch greyhounds arrive at the track for races and not believe they love racing... I'm now a licensed kennel helper, and I own 1/2 interest in a racing litter.

For anyone in Colorado, or passing through Colorado, you have a standing invitation to visit our adoption kennel, which is on a greyhound farm. If you have time, I'd also be happy to go to the track with you and arrange for a paddock tour.

For those who can't make it, check out the webpage we did for our 10th year reunion event:

RMGA 10th Year Reunion (http://rmga.org/Reunion.htm)

No lure, we didn't use the starting box, and those dogs had the best time back at "work."

DogLover9501

10-23-2004, 03:53 PM

Im not sure whats so funny...I too am sickened by all of this, and very tired of it going on and on just because of one thing.

K9soul

10-23-2004, 03:57 PM

That pitties finds it so amusing sure makes it seem like he/she is involved.

micki76

10-23-2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
That pitties finds it so amusing sure makes it seem like he/she is involved.

And that's a surprise?

aly

10-23-2004, 03:59 PM

I am bowing out of this discussion. Several people offered educated opinions which I really appreciate, but a few people have really sunk to the lowest levels. This could have been a mature conversation, but I think the chance of that is ruined now. I am disgusted about it all as well.

guster girl

10-23-2004, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by aly
I am bowing out of this discussion. Several people offered educated opinions which I really appreciate, but a few people have really sunk to the lowest levels. This could have been a mature conversation, but I think the chance of that is ruined now. I am disgusted about it all as well.

Agreed, I didn't get too involved in the first place, but, I read all the posts. I'm also keeping most of what I want to say, completely to myself. ;)

DogLover9501

10-23-2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by guster girl
Agreed, I didn't get too involved in the first place, but, I read all the posts. I'm also keeping most of what I want to say, completely to myself. ;)

Ditto

Cincy'sMom

10-23-2004, 05:32 PM

I am not sure wht I am responding, and I really have nothing meaningful to say, but here it goes anyway.

1. Yes, I have been to greyhounds races. I was in junior high and went while in Florida with my friend's family. This was about 15 or 16 years ago. I knew nothing of rescue groups, purebreds vs. mutts, puppy mills, or even how to train a dog. Yes, I had fun. I loved dogs and loved to see them run. That was as much as I knew at 12.

2. I know from therapy dog training that greyhounds are the only dogs NOT required to sit on command during the CGC/TDI test. I was told this is because retired racers are often never taught ti sit...they spend their lives laying or standing. I don't know know if this truely is the reason, but I have known 2 rescued greyhounds, recently off the track, that didn't know how to sit.

3. In any dogs sport, be it showing, racing, agility, flyball, whatever, you will have good owners and bad owners, good kennels and bad kennels. I hope and I want to believe that through education, things are getting better for racing animals. I don't think we can hope to stop it, only make it as humane for the animals as possible.

Personally, I can not see the aspect of getting a dog, working with it, and then giving it up. But that is me and my opinion. For the same reason, I could never breed a dog, or even train a dog to be a service dog, or even foster a dog. The bottom line reasoning for me is the same...when I put the time and effort into a dog, I want to be there for its whole life. I have bonded with that animal, and I don't want to give it up. In some aspects, that is me being selfish. In some cases, such as fostering, I am glad there are people who can do it. Don't know where we would be if there wasn't. But is it wrong to want every dog to a have a loving, stable forever home? Unrealistic, maybe? but wrong?

Karen

10-23-2004, 05:35 PM

Pitties' needless, hurtful comments have been deleted. He is now banned.

Tollers-n-Dobes

10-23-2004, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by Karen
Pitties' needless, hurtful comments have been deleted. He is now banned.

Thanks Karen:D

Uabassoon

10-23-2004, 05:45 PM

Greys please don't twist my words around. I'm doing my best not to twist yours but instead respond with my own opinions.

No where did I say that no one should breed greyhounds, I stated that I loved the breed very much. I just don't agree with breeding to race (for human entertainment such as gambling)

I have no problem with hunting dogs, sled dogs, and police dogs. Those dogs live with their owners and work along side them. We have a few sleders on this board, when a dog retires it l lives out it's entire life with them. Yes I realize not all sleders are like this, and I don't approve and have problems with sleders that treat their dogs like property.

Good breeders will sell their pups to aproved homes then if the home doesn't work out they will take back the puppy because they realize that if they breed a dog it's a lifetime commitment. Please don't twist those words around either. I'm not saying all breeders, which is why I only believe in supporting good breeders. Part of that means that they are willing to make a lifetime commitment to the dog and if it doesn't get sold then it lives it's life with them.

I'n not saying that every single person who races a greyhound is horrible. I just think the business as a whole is bad and don't support it.

dogs_4_me

10-23-2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Karen
Pitties' needless, hurtful comments have been deleted. He is now banned.

Woo hoo thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K9soul

10-23-2004, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Karen
Pitties' needless, hurtful comments have been deleted. He is now banned.

Thank you so much Karen :)

I honestly think that even though there has been some intense conflict on all of this, I love that some of the greyhound people are coming over and introducing themselves and showing their babies :)

Uabassoon

10-23-2004, 06:05 PM

For all those new members that joined us via greytalk please know that there are no hard feelings and we are not an argumentative board. We are just a group of passionate animal lovers. I hope you all stick around and enjoy other parts of the board. We all love pictures here and it would be wonderful to see some more pictures of your beautiful greyhounds.

7up

10-23-2004, 06:16 PM

Don't forget to vote in their poll!

http://www.greytalk.com/~forums/index.php?showtopic=72292

K9soul

10-23-2004, 06:18 PM

I think that poll was more intended to find out the makeup of the board's regular members, but I could be wrong. The results are interesting though :)

7up

10-23-2004, 07:44 PM

Greytalk is one message board that is heavily pro-racing. Most other are not, which is understandable.

RMGAJAN

10-23-2004, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by 7up
Greytalk is one message board that is heavily pro-racing. Most other are not, which is understandable.

There are many who would dispute that.

As PT is a forum of very passionate animal lovers, GT is a bunch of very passionate greyhound adopters/owners/lovers. Sometimes to the point of becoming easily offended. Particularly when some are adopters turned adoption workers turned racer owners.

lovemygreys7

10-23-2004, 08:23 PM

Originally posted by 7up
Greytalk is one message board that is heavily pro-racing. Most other are not, which is understandable.

:eek: I would have to say that at one time GT used to be fairly heavily anti-racing (the individual members, NOT the board itself). Though the mods do allow a civil discussion of the racing issue, they really do a good job of trying to keep the board neutral overall.

Several members have joined that are in "the industry" Everything from race dog owners, to people running adoption groups at race tracks, to people who own greyhound farms/breed racing puppies....basically all aspects. They have done a great job dispelling many of the myths, keeping us informed to what the racing industry is doing to improve greyhound racing and adoption - AND talking about what work still needs to be done to reach 100% adoption.

Personally, I think everyone is entitled to their opinion on the issue - and I can respect an opinion based on good, solid information.

lovemygreys7

10-23-2004, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by Uabassoon
For all those new members that joined us via greytalk please know that there are no hard feelings and we are not an argumentative board. We are just a group of passionate animal lovers. I hope you all stick around and enjoy other parts of the board. We all love pictures here and it would be wonderful to see some more pictures of your beautiful greyhounds.

I think you will find that greyhound owners are passionate as well - especially about our beloved breed!.I'm looking forward to spending some time on this board. If its pictures you want...well, I have PLENTY of those :) :)

Here's one of my faves...my first chip (second greyhound) Hanna

http://www.greyhoundfreaks.com/hanna/hanna-angel.jpg

lovemygreys7

10-23-2004, 08:36 PM

I realize this is my third straight post...but just thought I'd address this real quick....

2. I know from therapy dog training that greyhounds are the only dogs NOT required to sit on command during the CGC/TDI test. I was told this is because retired racers are often never taught ti sit...they spend their lives laying or standing. I don't know know if this truely is the reason, but I have known 2 rescued greyhounds, recently off the track, that didn't know how to sit.

Our boy Prajna went through a cell dog program. He sits very well - and on command. I just went through CGC with Harmony and taught her to sit. Our old gals Star and Annie both sit on their own (we adopted them both as seniors so I don't know if they were taught to sit or not by previous owners). All this to say that greyhounds can and do sit. It tends to not be their favorite position (too hard to sleep while sitting...lol)

I think most owners just don't know how to train the gh to sit or don't want to take the time. And, honestly, its not that important in their day to day lives.

RMGAJAN

10-23-2004, 08:37 PM

OK, my dogs are getting jealous...

So... pics: my first race pups, now 4 months old. These pics were when they wre a day old.

http://www.rmga.org/jan/images/RaceLi1.jpg

http://www.rmga.org/jan/images/RaceLi2.jpg

And this is what happends when you have multiple adopted greyhounds:

http://www.rmga.org/jan/images/fullcouch1.jpg

http://www.rmga.org/jan/images/housefull1.jpg

greysandmoregreys

10-23-2004, 08:53 PM

Jan those pictures are just way to cute!!!
Pictures of the couch is an all to familar scene at our home also :)

As far as greys sitting just imagine telling a muscle bound person to put his arms down, straight to there sides. They just can't there lats are just to big to allow.

When a greyhound sits there butts don't touch the floor, for the most part. So they are supporting all there weight with there legs. Kinda like if you squat half way down. Not to comfy :)

sabies

10-23-2004, 09:09 PM

Beautiful pictures. I have never seen a greyhound puppy - their faces look so different! I think my Sadie is half whippet and she was often the fastest sleekest dog in the dog park until a full bred greyhound or whippet showed up.

Cincy's Mom I'm too selfish too to be a temporary mom to a dog. I don't have an opinion on racing. My hope is that all animal abuse ends or is at least heavily punished and looked down on by society - whether it be related to racing, fighting, breeding, or just owning.

micki76

10-23-2004, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by RMGAJAN
http://www.rmga.org/jan/images/housefull1.jpg

May I come over? :D I see a spot right down there on the floor that would be perfect for me!!! :D :D :D

KYS

10-23-2004, 09:44 PM

posted by micki76:May I come over? :D I see a spot right down there on the floor that would be perfect for me!!! :>>>>>>>>

Where? What spot? lol

MomofCash

10-23-2004, 09:57 PM

Good evening ... :)

Another Greyhound lover from Greytalk ... hope you don't mind me stopping over! I've been reading this thread since yesterday and I have not posted on the thread in Greytalk. I think someone on here said that the truth is usually in the middle ... and that's pretty much where I've found it to be regarding Greyhounds.

I've never been to a race ... don't know that I'd go if asked, but I just may ... just to see the Greys run - something they absolutely love to do.

There's good and bad in everything in life ... I'm sure that Greyhound breeding/training/racing is no exception. I've met some wonderful people being involved with Greyhound adoption - both pro-racing AND anti-racing and each feels passionately about their beliefs.

The one thing I feel passionate about is the Greyhounds. I volunteer, I make GUR's, I foster - I'll do whatever needs to be done to find these wonderful animals good homes. I just flunked Fostering 101 for the first time ... :D

It's hard for discussions like this not to get nasty at times ... but please, please ... try to see the other's viewpoints and act respectfully. Everyone has their own opinion and it isn't always necessarily the one you believe in.

And last but not least ... here's a pic of my 3 girls ... Cash (our 6-year old red brindle girl), Flecka (our recently adopted 2-year old Hurricane Ivan foster) and our 4-year old daughter.

Uabassoon

10-23-2004, 10:01 PM

Lovemygreys7, RMGAJAN and MomofCash Welcome to Pet Talk! And thanks for posting some pictures, all of the pictures I saw were wonderful! I hope you all stay and continue to post pictures long after this thread has died.

K9soul

10-23-2004, 10:01 PM

Gosh... to the folks from GT that are coming over to share pics, all your greys are beautiful. But I must say you are making my greyhound fever burn more intensely than ever before :D. I sure hope some of you decide to stick around here and continue to share your beautiful babies with us :)

Tollers-n-Dobes

10-23-2004, 10:03 PM

OMG! I love all of your greyhounds! I've always loved the breed and it's great to see pictures of them! Welcome to PT everyone from GreyTalk:D I hope you decide to stick around:D

Uabassoon

10-23-2004, 10:06 PM

Since you all are posting pictures of your greys I want to post a picture of my all time favorite grey named Abigail. She is one of my regulars and I sit for her often. Her owners recently adopted another grey (but I can't remember his name :( ) I've never sat for him because he still can't be trusted in the house so they decided for now it's best to kennel him when they go out of town. Abigail is a wonderful dog, but I will admit she is the worst bed hog ever!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/pcf884ec2125f6590bfe507541a00ec68/fbe0d2af.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/p1fef45ac5473b15edbf6a7dfac92c8ab/fbe0d2b3.jpg

Sorry the quality is bad. I haven't taken any pics of them since i got my new camera.

MomofCash

10-23-2004, 10:07 PM

Thank ya'll for the welcome .... it's much appreciated. And since ya'll love pictures, thought I'd post another of my girls ... ;)

bckrazy

10-24-2004, 01:17 AM

personally, I have never been to a race, in a stadium.. but I have seen several racing Greyhound kennels and racing facilities in Oregon that appauled me :eek:... I don't even want to get into that, but all of what I have seen of the industry is pretty horrible. A lot like the horse racing industry, in ways. When money and gambling is involved it seems like it's bound to be a bad scene. But, as in everything, I'm sure there are many responsible owners out there -- though, no matter what it doesn't seem all that responsible to me, to dump your dog off at a rescue after he/she has faithfully trained and raced for you for years.

I have been to many lure coursing events, I love them!! hounds are amazing dogs, and its great to see them out doing what they're bred to do. greyhounds are wonderful dogs, there is no arguing that, I would love to adopt one someday.

It can and does happen to every breed out there. sad

exactly! I know that everyone on these boards, everyone, wants to put an end to all neglectful kennels, puppy mills, and animal abusers. period. None of us want anything to do with an industry which, in any way, condones the abuse of animals. Personally, I am so angry when I see any dog that is put through a lot of trauma and sometimes branded as unadoptable just because their idiot owners did not take the time to socialize them at an early age... I don't care if the owner is a nieghbor of mine, a greyhound kennel owner, or a puppy mill owner.

BitsyNaceyDog

10-24-2004, 08:30 AM

Firstly I want to welcome all of you from GT. I hope you stick around and enjoy PT.

I also want to give a link (http://4greyhounds.org/relief/index.html). That is from a greyhound rescue group here in florida. Here is a quote from it:

A continuing program for Retired Racing Greyhounds.
When I run my Adopt A Greyhound, Everyone's a Winner, television show, everyone asks me how do I go about doing a Rescue. It's simple ... the phone rings ... there's an emergency somewhere with a bunch of greyhounds ... and we're on our way! The first thing that has to be arranged is a place for the animals to stay. No small feat when you've got 40-100 starving greyhounds that need to be medically treated, fed, sheltered and adopted.

You need to understand that to most people here at pet talk this is unexceptionable. No pet wether it be a dog or a mouse should be without love and the best possible care. I am not saying that this is the case with every race dog, but there are way too many cases like this.

Let me tell you, rescuing 400 greyhounds in a two week period is a monumental task and without the Lord's help, it just couldn't be done.

400 in 2 weeks. You can see that there is a problem when that many dogs are going to a rescue in a 2 week time. I know that not every 2 week period of time that passes another 400 greyhounds are put into rescue groups, but for that to even happen once is disgusting.

micki76

10-24-2004, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by KYS
posted by micki76:May I come over? :D I see a spot right down there on the floor that would be perfect for me!!! :>>>>>>>>

Where? What spot? lol

:p :D Believe me, I can find a spot!! In a room full of puppers, I can always find room!

dukedogsmom

10-24-2004, 09:22 AM

Obviously Cali has never seen a documentary on Greyhounds.

lovemygreys7

10-24-2004, 09:37 AM

400 in 2 weeks. You can see that there is a problem when that many dogs are going to a rescue in a 2 week time. I know that not every 2 week period of time that passes another 400 greyhounds are put into rescue groups, but for that to even happen once is disgusting.

Every year, when seasonal tracks close there is a great influx of hounds into adoption. Likewise when the NGA auction is held. Non-winning dogs are moved off the track and into waiting adoption groups. Groups plan for these time times and work with the racing industry to matriculate these dogs through the adoption process.

Very few dogs that adopted out are true rescues. These are hounds that have been release by their racing owner into adoption programs. Those owners could keep the dogs or put them down - but they don't. Some owners do place their own dogs - but a vast majority recognize that greyhound adoption groups are GOOD at what we do - so they give the dogs to us to place. Adoption groups also rely on the support of racing owners and kennel owners for donations to keep the doors open.

As for the claim of "rescuing" 400 hounds in two weeks. I don't know ANY group that could responsibly process this many dogs. Where is their kennel facility? Do they have 400 foster homes? Who pays the vet bills???? I'm not saying its not true - just that I'm not familiar with this group or what work they've done in the past. I do know that when the hurricanes went through FL this year and many racing kennels were damaged, adoption groups across the country stepped up to take in dogs. Sure groups weren't expecting this - but neither were the tracks or kennel owners. We all worked together to get the job done.

Sure there are some jerkies in the industry...there are some jerkies in adoption too! I have seen HORRIBLE cases of abuse - not from tracks though....by people who have adopted the greyhounds. I have a 14 year old that is a perfect example of adoptive owner abuse (and a 6 year old and a 13 year old). So just keep in perspective that there is good and bad in every industry. Racing, adoption and adopters (and there are bad cops, bad teachers, bad doctors.........) We don't get rid of doctors because there are cases of malpractice.

30 years ago we didn't recycle pepsi cans. Now we do. 30 years ago virtually all racers were euthanized. Now, less than 2000 per year are. Is that still too many? Absolutely. Do people in the industry agree with that? Absolutely. But the difference now, is that you have racing working with adoption to reach 100% adoption - and that includes more responsible breeding so there are fewer pups born every year.

K9soul

10-24-2004, 09:44 AM

lovemygreys, It is encouraging to see the changes that are going on and I hope they continue. It would not surprise me if some organizations dramatize what is really going on, after all several animal rescue groups do that, Peta is a prime example. Of course, I still think there is a ways to go, and like you and others stated, it happens with all dogs, but since racing is such a big industry, I think it is more common than with some. I just think the truth lies in the middle between the two extremes, though I do not claim to be perfectly educated. Pretty much most of what I have to go by is what one side says versus the other side. Often in those situations, it's a little of both.

Again, welcome to Pet Talk though, I know I appreciate all the viewpoints here :)

lovemygreys7

10-24-2004, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by K9soul
lovemygreys, It is encouraging to see the changes that are going on and I hope they continue. It would not surprise me if some organizations dramatize what is really going on, after all several animal rescue groups do that, Peta is a prime example. Of course, I still think there is a ways to go, and like you and others stated, it happens with all dogs, but since racing is such a big industry, I think it is more common than with some. I just think the truth lies in the middle between the two extremes, though I do not claim to be perfectly educated. Pretty much most of what I have to go by is what one side says versus the other side. Often in those situations, it's a little of both.

Again, welcome to Pet Talk though, I know I appreciate all the viewpoints here :)

Thank you! Greyhound adoption still has much work to do - but one day we will get there. As I've said before, people are entitled to their opinions on racing - one of my goals is to help educate people on the whole picture of racing and adoption so that they can make an informed opinion.

Greyhound adoption is fortunate in the sense that we have an "industry" to work with. My heart and respect goes out to the thousands of people who work tirelessly to home and re-home the seemingly never-ending stream of pure and mixed breed animals.

All people who work in adoption - regardless of breed or species - are heros in my eyes!

Kfamr

10-24-2004, 01:03 PM

Cute doggies everyone! :D

I'm completely sick of the way GT has been talking aobut Pet Talk. :mad:

I guess we're all trolls now.:mad: :rolleyes:

I just wanted to share these three beauties that Valerie (dukesdogsmom) and I met at the FL PT meeting a bit back.....
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v95/simnala/FLPTMeet04/12.jpg

sammy101

10-24-2004, 01:18 PM

oh im so happy that were not argueing(spll??) any more.I love seeing pictures of all these beautiful greys,and i love hearing about you stories.:)

guster girl

10-24-2004, 01:45 PM

I went to Grey Talk's site, and, really didn't see that much trash talking done about Pet Talk. It was only a few comments that I saw, and, they weren't anything to worry about, IMO. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, though, I only read the thread about dog racing. Was there more? And, the "don't feed the trolls" posts (I think I remember seeing two) were basically ignored, meaning, I didn't notice anyone nodding their heads in agreement. Overall, it's seems like a smart site to me, from what I read. But, anyway, the overall feeling I got was not a bad one, just a few random posts with some stereoypical comments. Anyone who believes lump statments like that without at least doing a little research is a sheep anyway, and, who cares what people in sheep's clothing think? If some random remarks from a couple of posters in Grey Talk brought over some curious Grey Talkers, I say GREAT! I'm loving all the photos of the dogs, and, like that they are posting about the positive aspects of racing. It's nice to finally see another side of the coin. And, again, that's just my opinion, don't bash me for it. :)

lovemygreys7

10-24-2004, 01:50 PM

I'm completely sick of the way GT has been talking aobut Pet Talk.

I'm a bit disappointed myself. GT'rs are normally very accepting of both greyhound and non-greyhound owners. Everyone is welcome on our board (pro, neutral and anti racing peeps as well as folks who know nothing about greys, but want to learn!) I think a lot of people felt like we were being attacked unfairly so they lashed out. I've felt very welcome on this board!

oh im so happy that were not argueing(spll??) any more

I agree. While a healthy debate and exchange of ideas is a good thing - it serves no one when the topic (regardless of what it is) detiorates to namecalling and mean-spiritedness.

It's nice to finally see another side of the coin.

Thanks for keeping an open mind. That's all we ask :)

guster girl

10-24-2004, 01:56 PM

I've always had an open mind about the racing industry and the sled dog industries. I've personally seen both sides firsthand of both of those sports. I know there are a lot of people, though, that think if one animal is needlessly harmed for the entertainment of people, the entire sport should be banned. I don't agree with that at all. But, I'm just glad there are more greyhounds on the site, now!

guster girl

10-24-2004, 02:01 PM

Wow, and, I did just see the "Pet Talk's afraid of me" post in Grey Talk. I don't know, it doesn't offend me, though, it's kind of funny. There are always people with that kind of personality, including in Pet Talk. Variety is the spice of life, I think. As long as we know the core of Pet Talk, and, they know the core of Grey Talk, we'll all be alright. :)

K9soul

10-24-2004, 02:11 PM

I think it's mostly just a particular person who keeps bringing up Pet Talk in a negative light, and I have commented a few times asking that this person not group us all together or judge us as a single entity, I sure wouldn't want to be lumped together with the person who was name calling and cursing on their board yesterday. I think it's important we don't turn around and do the same thing though. I've responded to the person who seems to bring it up the most but I'm done at this point, if that person is determined to see us as a single entity there's nothing I can really do about it other than what I already have. There are people there who have clashes and don't get along as well just the same as here. Overall if you look at the posts that don't have to do with anti or pro racing debates, they are mostly friendly, enthusiastic and warm hearted.

As far as the troll comments, I think you have to expect that in a way when people choose to post anonymously. When someone new shows up at pet talk and enters into arguments right away, many of us also often think they are trolling. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't (IMO). I think there would be MANY more trolls here if people were able to post without registering.

Overall I've been treated very nicely, I introduced myself there and had a lot of nice responses and offers to give me information including a PM there about the MN greyhound groups (Thanks again Becki :))

K9soul

10-24-2004, 02:13 PM

The Pet Talk's afraid of me post seemed to be joking to me because that person can't get a validation yet. :P

guster girl

10-24-2004, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
I think it's mostly just a particular person who keeps bringing up Pet Talk in a negative light, and I have commented a few times asking that this person not group us all together or judge us as a single entity, I sure wouldn't want to be lumped together with the person who was name calling and cursing on their board yesterday. I think it's important we don't turn around and do the same thing though. I've responded to the person who seems to bring it up the most but I'm done at this point, if they are determined to see us as a single entity there's nothing I can really do about it other than what I already have. There are people there who have clashes and don't get along as well just the same as here. Overall if you look at the posts that don't have to do with anti or pro racing debates, they are mostly friendly, enthusiastic and warm hearted.

As far as the troll comments, I think you have to expect that in a way when people choose to post anonymously. When someone new shows up at pet talk and enters into arguments right away, many of us also often think they are trolling. Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't (IMO). I think there would be MANY more trolls here if people were able to post without registering.

Overall I've been treated very nicely, I introduced myself there and had a lot of nice responses and offers to give me information including a PM there about the MN greyhound groups (Thanks again Becki :))

I agree with everything you've said, and, also with all that you said at Grey Talk. And, I wholeheartedly agree with the troll comments. I think it's to be expected. :) We do it all the time in here, and, again, I agree with you that sometimes I don't think they're trolls. Most of the time, my feeling is that they are, but, not always.

guster girl

10-24-2004, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
The Pet Talk's afraid of me post seemed to be joking to me because that person can't get a validation yet. :P

I thought so too. :)

cocker_luva

10-24-2004, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by cali
I would love to go, and I dont believe greyhoiund races in inhumane in the slightest, I am pro-racing. by the way I have been hanging outwith people who own racing and retired racing greys for years, and quite frankly the greys dont get agile and muscular etc.. from sitting in crates all day, they are takin out several times a day, they get messages and one on one time, they get fed high quaility food mix real meat etc.. mixed in, and when they retire they are placed in Rescues to find them pet homes.

id like to go too! i bet they're fun!

cocker_luva

10-24-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
WOW, just WOW

If you take a look at my user name you will see that I'm a big greyhound fan :)

Have six that I share my home with. Have fostered several more, assist in greyhound adoption with several local and not so local greyhound ADOPTION groups.

There is a major ignorance going on here I see, and it's not the from the post of Cali :D

First off there is no such breed out there that you can use the word ALL on so I will leave that out ;)

Of my six hounds 4 of them came DIRECTLY from the racing kennels and came into my home as if they owned it.

Sure there are websites out there that will show you horrors of greyhound racing but have you looked at some of the adoption boards from greyhounds that there ADOPTIVE owners and the things that some of these people have done to there dogs?

Yes greyhounds are breed for racing which in turn is a money making business.

You can not force a greyhound to run if they don't want to. It's just that plain and simple.

Do I know what I'm talking about? H*ll YES I DO

I started out as a leadout at a greyhound track in Ct, then moved on to becoming a greyhound trainer, and now I raise, race and find forever homes for EVERY GREYHOUND IN MY KENNELS!!!

I've done dog grooming, dog obediance, agility, and now greyhounds.

Have a look at a website that will show you a bit more information about greyhound ownership from racing owner
Teamgreyhound (http://www.teamgreyhound.us)

If you want to really learn about it and not just shoot off at the mouth about things that you know little to nothing about.

Please feel free to contact me and I am more than happy to share my experinces with you all :D

good job! you are the first person who actually sounds like they arent making up bullsh*t to get their

There is nothing ALL good or ALL bad in anything. That is just the facts of it long and short! opinion across!!!

greysandmoregreys

10-24-2004, 03:57 PM

Not to cause any more problems but I think I must be out of my mind LOL no big surprise to some ;)

If you look at this same site that is listed in the link below. Check out this page
skinny dog (http://4greyhounds.org/rescue/noonecared.html)

The second picture down shows the right side of the dog where there is no fawn color at all. Where in the bottom picture there is. Also in the two top pictures compaired to the bottom picture there is no fawn color on the dogs head.

I've always been good at those games where you find out what is different between both pictures.

All I want everyone to try and understand is that things can be painted in such a way that makes you think one way. That way may not be the case.

The industry is not perfect and no one claimed it to be. We all learn and try to better ouselves though education that is all we ask of others.

We all have our opinions and we are free to have those. Like it or not. I can understand yours and may not agree but please give others the same concederation.
agree to disagree :)

Originally posted by KBlaix
Firstly I want to welcome all of you from GT. I hope you stick around and enjoy PT.

I also want to give a link (http://4greyhounds.org/relief/index.html). That is from a greyhound rescue group here in florida. Here is a quote from it:

You need to understand that to most people here at pet talk this is unexceptionable. No pet wether it be a dog or a mouse should be without love and the best possible care. I am not saying that this is the case with every race dog, but there are way too many cases like this.

400 in 2 weeks. You can see that there is a problem when that many dogs are going to a rescue in a 2 week time. I know that not every 2 week period of time that passes another 400 greyhounds are put into rescue groups, but for that to even happen once is disgusting.

guster girl

10-24-2004, 04:08 PM

the links don't work for me!

micki76

10-24-2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by guster girl
the links don't work for me!

http://4greyhounds.org/rescue/noonecared.html

MomofCash

10-24-2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
The Pet Talk's afraid of me post seemed to be joking to me because that person can't get a validation yet. :P

Definitely he was pokin' fun ... ya gotta know Coach ... :p

BitsyNaceyDog

10-24-2004, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
Not to cause any more problems but I think I must be out of my mind LOL no big surprise to some ;)

If you look at this same site that is listed in the link below. Check out this page
skinny dog (http://4greyhounds.org/rescue/noonecared.html)

The second picture down shows the right side of the dog where there is no fawn color at all. Where in the bottom picture there is. Also in the two top pictures compaired to the bottom picture there is no fawn color on the dogs head.

I've always been good at those games where you find out what is different between both pictures.

All I want everyone to try and understand is that things can be painted in such a way that makes you think one way. That way may not be the case.

The industry is not perfect and no one claimed it to be. We all learn and try to better ouselves though education that is all we ask of others.

We all have our opinions and we are free to have those. Like it or not. I can understand yours and may not agree but please give others the same concederation.
agree to disagree :)

I think you are saying that they are two different dogs pictured. If you read the story they will explain the difference in the coloring. Also when you enlarge the first picture you can see some light fawn coloring to the dog.

greysandmoregreys

10-24-2004, 05:32 PM

WOW, your right!! I'm sorry :(

I really couldn't believe that was the same dog but the more and more I looked at the first picture I could see the faint fawn color.

Again I'm sorry. That is one amazing transformation

Miss Meow

10-24-2004, 06:21 PM

Putting aside the pro/anti racing for a moment (we're all for animal welfare aren't we?), I wish everyone had the same amount of post-career care for greyhounds.

The claim in this article is that 20,000 greyhounds are put down each year in a small country like Australia. The rescue angels can only take in a small fraction of this amount.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/24/1098556296347.html

K9soul

10-24-2004, 06:28 PM

I have wondered if the rescue programs in other countries were as large as the ones in the U.S. seem to be. Some European countries actually seem to have more laws protecting animals than U.S., and some seem to have fewer. I am completely uneducated to even the smallest degree on the racing industry outside the U.S. I just know that things like cropping/docking laws are in place or are going in place in many other countries.

7up

10-24-2004, 08:31 PM

k9soul, the situation for greyhounds in the U.S. is the best you will find compared to just about anywhere else in the world. I can give you some more detail later on after I get the dogs walked and fed. What I can say now is that greyhounds are not categorized with other dogs or domestic pets with regard to any applicable animal protection laws, until they exit the racing system. Other regulations do exist within the industry and are specific to racing greyhounds, just like there are for race horses. State laws that might apply to racing greyhounds would be those in place for any livestock animal.

7up

Giselle

10-24-2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by bckrazy
[B]personally, I have never been to a race, in a stadium.. but I have seen several racing Greyhound kennels and racing facilities in Oregon that appauled me :eek:... I don't even want to get into that, but all of what I have seen of the industry is pretty horrible.

Bckrazy, Please tell us the name of the kennel. If that kennel is truly appauling, it must be reported to the NGA at once. Please e-mail me with the name of the kennel or contact the NGA, Please. Also, I am visiting my uncle in Oregon next summer. We plan to visit a Greyhound kennel for ourselves. How did you get the names of the kennels and may I have them?

Back on topic, I was once vehemently anti-racing (thank you GPL *grits teeth*). Unfortunately, I based my "research" on slanted and biased AR articles. Then, I talked to a lady in Wisconsin and she shared her experiences. I researched (and this time, NOT on GPL or PETA) the industry and contacted a few breeders/kennel owners. Now, I'm neutral but slightly pro-racing. Really, you can not go on word of mouth or opinions alone. Nor should you be swayed just because of what you read here. I plan to visit a Greyhound kennel in Oregon and Multnomah Greyhound Park.

Also, a lot of Greyhound breeders do care where their dogs go. In general, any breeder who hands over their dog to an adoption group, imo, is caring. I just received a letter from Giselle's breeder who still remembered my baby girl even after three years and probably dozens of other dogs. She shared a little information about Giselle and it's really heartwarming and gratifying to know that some breeders *do* care. Anyways, I digress.

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 07:14 AM

Just a little "FYI" here... the bare butt thing.. isn't related at all to the "time spent in a kennel". It has more to do with severalother factors. One being that Greys, on average, have lower thyroid levels than do other dogs. Secondly, as is the case with my Greyhound, when they are finished with a race, their handlers will rub them down with a linament i.e. icy hot or ben gay or sportcreme. Try rubbing that stuff on YOUR butt and see how much hair you've got left ;)

As far as it being a "sick" sport... Good Lord... I'm sitting here reading my hounds Career History report that I just obtained. She had 59 races in her short career (a season and a half). Not counting her final race, her last 5 races she finished 2nd three times, won once, and came in 7th in another. She was a high level Stakes racer at one of the most competive tracks in the country. She was making her owners and plenty of parimutal bettors plenty of money. However, in her last race, she did not finish. I have no idea why, but, it's safe to assume that something physically happened to her that she wasn't able to recover from. Now, don't any of you "It sickens me" types think that a dog who was winning so many people so much money would've been rehabbed and put back on the track to continue if this was such an inherently cruel sport?

I'm not here to bicker, flame or demean anyone... I'd just hope that our experiences are considered before judgements are made. I'd also humbly submit that one should visit a track for nothing more than to see the sheer JOY these dogs get from running... Believe me... playing "flyball" is not what these hounds are meant for...

Originally posted by KBlaix
I live just a short ways (about an hour and a half) from Daytona where they have greyhound racing. I have seen several dogs from off the track that have retired due to injury. A broken leg is certainly not uncommon. At the boarding facility I work at we board several retired greyhounds from the track and they ALL (and I do mean all) have bear butts from being in crates for such long periods of time. Also my best friend has been talking to greyhound rescue about adopting one from the track, and she probably will be soon. She seen and heard some horrible things that these dogs have been through. I am for one totally 100% against dog racing, it's a sick sport. If they love their dog and want them to run they can put them agility classes and keep them off the track.

I agree completely.

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 07:17 AM

do you watch any of the Triple Crown races on TV? The Kentucky Derby, Preakness, Belmont? Is THAT not solely about money? Heck, VISA has a $5million payout to the owner of the horse that wins all three...

What do you think happens to all those horses after they've been deemed unfit to race? I have no idea, but, I'm sure it isn't that they're set up on a Kentucky stud farm to live out their lives.

Originally posted by Jadapit
I dont think I would ever go to a dog race because I believe its mostly all about the money (the gambling) We live in Colo and Colorado Springs has a greyhound track. We were up there visiting a couple of years ago and I was looking in there paper and I kid you not there were pages and pages of greyhound rescues in just one of their papers.

If the dogs are loved and treated so well then how come there were so many rescues for them!?! I'm sure a lot are probably treated good and some people do race them for the love of the sport but there are probably many more that do it just for the money. IMHO anyway.....

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 07:25 AM

Well, now... Let's see, my hound ran 59 races (see above post for her last 5 race stats) and when she got hurt and was no longer winning..was she "KILLED"? No wait, she couldn't have been.. she's sleeping on my bed right now!

As far as the "not treated well or loved"... Quick little story, when I was able to track down my hound's breeder, I told her who my dog was and I could literally HEAR the woman smile over the phone. She was so happy to learn that one of her babies made it to a comfy couch and was living a good retired life in Sunny San Diego. Not only was she happy to hear that, but, she without hesitation went into several stories about Sequoia when she was a puppy. Now, mind you, this is a woman that breeds and races some of the best dogs for the best tracks in the country. For her to remember a SINGLE hound out of the many that she's welped.. I think that speaks to the level of care and love that these hounds get.

Now.. about the "If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not comment" comment... Pot meet Kettle ;)

[i]Originally posted by Twisterdog
ANYONE with even the slightest experience with dog racing knows the horrors of it. EVERY racing greyhound will be killed when it no longer a winner.

Not ONE of them was treated well or loved, and ALL of them were literally snatched from death's door.

If you do not know what you are talking about, please do not comment. Do us all a favor. [/B]

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:00 AM

Oh Dear Lord! A grey with an owie on her tootsies!

Looking at that pic, I see nothing of what you claimed...So, I offer this... MY Hound who broke a toe while were straightline racing...
http://www.hometown.aol.com/greyhounddaddy/images/sequoiamiranda2.jpg

These dogs have small bones in their feet, buch thinner than most other breeds I'd imagine. Are you going to call me.. well, whatever names that have been bantied about because I LET my dog do what she LOVES doing? While I'm at it.. here's a couple pics of her the day she was running...

http://www.hometown.aol.com/chicksdiggirth/images/perkytongue.jpg
http://www.hometown.aol.com/chicksdiggirth/images/brbdaddy.jpg

Looks like a happy hound to me :)

And hile the guy may well not have been lying.. as I'm sure he felt he was giving the full hot order...I'd venture a guess that he's a staunch AR type that is a card carrying GPL member.

Originally posted by micki76
Ironically I met a rescued racer this evening at Petsmart when we went to get Tank a snail. Her name was Daisy and she was sickly thin (still needing to gain 15+ lbs), had a to the bone injury on her right front leg, and had a scary looking old injury to her left shoulder that was never treated and thus the muscle atrophied and so the formerly broken bone healed so that it sticks out. She was scratched and bruised all over. She's been in her foster home for 2 weeks and is adjusting to all the things that she should have been acclimated to as a puppy, such as furniture, mirrors, doorbells, air conditioner noises, etc.

This dog was horribly abused, even if she was never hit.

The husband is the President of Greyhounds Unlimited. I doubt he's lying about the atrocities these animals face. I doubt he's lying about what he deals with EVERY DAY. What he sees on a DAILY BASIS.

Why would ANYONE continue to breed animals KNOWING they’ll just turn them over rescuers in the end? WHY?
It’s all about the almighty dollar.

SICK.

Here's a pic of Daisy from their website:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v15/micki76/Daisy.jpg

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:11 AM

Wooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Here we go!

Alright people... that was my thread over on GT. If you have questions regarding it's beginnings.. no need... here's the deal. I tried to register here a couple days ago and failed to receive a validation email. SO I emailed an adminstrator and was given a password to use for posting here...THAT'S IT! I wasn't trying to say that I'm some Billy Badass that had a reputation preceeding him. GET OVER IT :)

I think if you go back and look at Cali's thread that started this whole hullaballoo (nice word, Coach!) I think you'll find that I was calling for her ouster from both boards. I cannot stand people that spout off and dont know a F'ing thing about what they're talking about. What was even more silly than my lame title for a thread, is the fact that WE ALL got hoodwinked and suckered into her little game. Honestly, I think she needs a good spanking, have her internet priveleges taken away by her mommy, and given extra chores! :gmark ! (You gt'ers will know what emoticon I wanna use there)

Savvy?

Oh, btw... I'm CoachGrieber on GT and I'm a Greyaholic.

Originally posted by guster girl
Wow, and, I did just see the "Pet Talk's afraid of me" post in Grey Talk. I don't know, it doesn't offend me, though, it's kind of funny. There are always people with that kind of personality, including in Pet Talk. Variety is the spice of life, I think. As long as we know the core of Pet Talk, and, they know the core of Grey Talk, we'll all be alright. :)

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:12 AM

Sweet.. I'm owning this thread right now!

zaylagrey

10-25-2004, 10:47 AM

Hey Coach.. I think you scared them. You can be a little intimidating sometimes:D . I've been in adoption for three years now. I've visited a track and farm. I've seen dogs come in off the plane in great shape, some in horrible shape, all from different places, and I agree with another poster on here that the truth definitely lies in between. I don't think the dogs are treated poorly at the track by what I had seen. It happens, from what I have seen, after the fact. Not every farm and Kennel is going to treat their dogs the same. There's good and bad. It is good to educate yourself and see for yourself. But don't assume that every farm or kennel in America treat's their dogs the same way the kennel or farm you've seen has. Just giving my 2 cents of what I've experienced.

Kfamr

10-25-2004, 10:50 AM

Either that or people just aren't on to comment...Hmmm.
I personally think it's be better if we just dropped this all instead of all the drama between both boards.
People are always going to have their own opinions on racing, breeding, everything... and nothing that's been said here has changed my opinion as of yet. The only thing that will is if there is not ONE dog being harmed, not ONE dog in the shelter..etc.
I still personally wouldn't agree with dogs racing for money, but I would approve of it if ALL of the dogs were treated better.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by GreyhoundDaddy
Wooooooooooooooooooooo!!! Here we go!

Alright people... that was my thread over on GT. If you have questions regarding it's beginnings.. no need... here's the deal. I tried to register here a couple days ago and failed to receive a validation email. SO I emailed an adminstrator and was given a password to use for posting here...THAT'S IT! I wasn't trying to say that I'm some Billy Badass that had a reputation preceeding him. GET OVER IT :)

I think if you go back and look at Cali's thread that started this whole hullaballoo (nice word, Coach!) I think you'll find that I was calling for her ouster from both boards. I cannot stand people that spout off and dont know a F'ing thing about what they're talking about. What was even more silly than my lame title for a thread, is the fact that WE ALL got hoodwinked and suckered into her little game. Honestly, I think she needs a good spanking, have her internet priveleges taken away by her mommy, and given extra chores! :gmark ! (You gt'ers will know what emoticon I wanna use there)

Savvy?

Oh, btw... I'm CoachGrieber on GT and I'm a Greyaholic.

Hola, Coach! :) Yeah, I'm guster girl over there on Grey Talk, too. I'm really enjoying reading the threads over there! Very nice site, so far anyway! And, I didn't need an explanation, personally, for your thread over there. I didn't have an issue with anything you said, but, because you quoted me in here, I thought I might. I didn't sense any offensive tone at all in your thread, I thought it was funny. And, "that kind of personality" wasn't meant as a negativism. I just mean, that kind of person who doesn't pull any punches, but, who can do with it humor. anywho...welcome to pet talk!

K9soul

10-25-2004, 11:08 AM

I'm a bit reluctant to state anymore on how I feel on this issue for a few reasons.

1, I don't want any more nasty conflict, I'm enjoying both boards and I'm enjoying meeting new people from GT.

2, Some folks over at GT have made it clear they consider our thoughts and feelings regarding this issue invalid because we don't own a grey. I still find this one hard to swallow. It's one thing to say someone's AR sentiments are fallacious because they have never researched both sides and spoken with both sides, but to say they are simply because they don't own a hound is pure assumption. What about those who are neutral or pro racing who don't have a hound? I don't see their stances being dismissed ;). No one really asked "have you researched both sides before you came to your conclusion?" A few just stated "they don't even own a hound." and summarily dismissed us on that reason alone.

I have learned a bit, mostly from the people who are neutral or somewhere in the middle.

MomoftheFuzzy

10-25-2004, 11:24 AM

I voted for "Been a time or two," and it's true and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I wanted a chance to express myself so badly that I just felt I had to reply here, after years of never saying anything regarding racing.

Bottom line is, there is no justification for inhumane treatment of animals, whether racing or not. I think we can all agree there. And there is justification for the fact that these dogs LOVE TO RUN. With that said, I do believe every dog deserves a warm, comfy couch and a family of their own (whether 1 person or 10) to love them like no other. That and that alone leads me to have mixed feelings regarding dog racing. I don't actively support it but I don't actively denigrate it either because I am EDUCATED and I seek to become more educated about it with each passing day.

I have gone to a couple of races and I DO SEE how happy the dogs are when they have won and they are paraded around -- they know they won! I do not doubt that the majority of people involved in racing take care of the hounds -- just as there are bad apples within shelters and within pet homes, there are bad (and good) apples here. I adopted my hounds from a wonderful woman who worked at the Sarasota Kennel so she had her allegiances. Yet she managed to have a 100% success rate in getting hounds adopted out after they were retired, whether it be to adoption groups or to individuals like myself.

I think we could all strive to learn a little more before we make snap judgements. It's one thing to form your own opinion -- it's another to force that opinion on others in order to defame or slander them, regardless of what side they or you might be on.

Denyce

10-25-2004, 11:51 AM

I don't have a lot to say on this subject as far as racing itself goes. I have an opinion like everyone else does I just don't wish to voice it at this time.

However this comment I felt I wanted to speak to...

2, Some folks over at GT have made it clear they consider our thoughts and feelings regarding this issue invalid because we don't own a grey. I still find this one hard to swallow. It's one thing to say someone's AR sentiments are fallacious because they have never researched both sides and spoken with both sides, but to say they are simply because they don't own a hound is pure assumption. What about those who are neutral or pro racing who don't have a hound? I don't see their stances being dismissed . No one really asked "have you researched both sides before you came to your conclusion?" A few just stated "they don't even own a hound." and summarily dismissed us on that reason alone.

I find this attitude similar to the one young mothers who are being called to task on something they are doing wrong with their children. That if you don't have children then you don't know. That by giving birth you automatically gain the knowledge and understanding you need to raise them properly. :rolleyes: WE have all seen examples as to how wrong that is. I feel it is the same with owning a greyhound and having an opinion on racing. To discount one because they don't own that breed of dog just shows the ignorance of the person making that statement.

I feel that those of us that don't have children nor own greyhounds perhaps have clearer insight in some ways. We are not so close to the issues and therefore can take a step back and assess the situation without so many emotions involved.

The bottom line to me seems to be that we all love animals and want the best for them. Whether (not weather :rolleyes: ) you are for racing or against we all would want to see all animals treated as humanely as possible right?? We all want to see our dogs and cats as happy as they can be. There will always be abuses when people are dealing with animals because frankly there are many people out there that just don't care. But to help balance that they are many people that do. You have to have the extremes in this world for there to be the happy middle. The ying and the yang. The good and the bad.

So do what you feel is right for you and your pets and the corner of the world that you live in. No one can do more than that.

Denyce

wolfsoul

10-25-2004, 02:16 PM

I haven't read through this entire thread, so forgive me if I sound ignorant. :)

While I do know that there are inhumane races, it is my opinion that there are more humane ones than there are inhumane. If anyone here watches the lure chasing events on Top Dogs, they can see how well taken care of the sighthounds are. They do interviews with the owners and they seem like they generally love their dogs and just compete to have fun. While there are LOTS of inhumane ones, when I think of those, I think of the races on the real tracks with the electric rabbit and the dogs being kept in cages all of the time and looking unhealthy, with lots of them belonging to only one owner, and with people bidding money and the prize being a huge cash prize. When I see the humane races (like on Top Dogs), I see that most of the dogs are owned by individual owners, they are in top condition with good health, they don't run on real tracks but on a grassy field, the prize is usually small, and usually not cash but a trophy, and the owners are always smiling and happy and they laugh when their dog runs of the course to go play.

I think what most people on this thread are talking about are the "real" racing events where people bid on the dogs. I don't like the idea of those types of events at all. But I love to watch the humane sighthound events and see how much fun everyone has. :)

aly

10-25-2004, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by zaylagrey
Hey Coach.. I think you scared them. You can be a little intimidating sometimes:D .

No one is scared. We like to try to remain as civil to each other as possible here. Sometimes that means ignoring certain posts that might spark some heated words. I read some of this individual's comments on your forum and while he likes to shoot off at the mouth, it is neither intimidating nor scary.

I understand why you guys were offended when first reading this thread. I am thrilled to see that so many of you ventured into other parts of the board and made introduction threads. This was just one "bad apple" thread among thousands of kind, warm, compassionate threads. I want to thank those that came and offered their opinions/ideas/beliefs without attacking anyone or calling names. It is much easier to have a discussion and learn new things when it is not clouded with juvenile name calling.

I hate to even think that there are "sides" to this in the first place. I think we all agree that Greyhounds love to run and are glad that they have an outlet for that. I think we all agree that there is good and bad in everything and that we should do what we can to help the poor Greyhounds who are stuck with the bad racing owners.

I am not against racing if the dogs are loved, well-cared for, and happy. I am against racing that entails abuse, neglect, and euthanizing the "losers".

I tried posting on the GT board about this and I was belittled because I don't own a Greyhound. I tried to explain my experience and was ripped apart. It was just by one person directly (although a few others said the same), but it left me feeling very hurt and bitter. Therefore, I couldn't listen to one thing this person said to me, valid points or not. I've been involved in rescue and dog behavior for over 6 years now. No, I am not an expert on Greyhounds, but I do know a lot. Just because I don't have a Greyhound doesn't mean one should assume I know nothing. And just because someone owns a Greyhound, it shouldn't be assumed that the person is an authority on them. I've met many an owner who knows absolutely nothing about the breed they have. I've also met many a person who knows more than me about the breeds I have, even though they don't own one themselves. I'm fully willing to admit when someone knows more than me. What they do or do not own has nothing to do with their knowledge.

Oh yeah, one thing I do have a problem with regarding racing are these "Greyhound farms". Please inform me on these (in a nice way). Since I do shelter work every day, the term farm gets to me. Why do you have to mass-produce these racing pups? Couldn't you adopt young Greyhounds from shelters or rescues to race them? Dogs are dying every single day while these farms are bringing more and more dogs into this world. These pups will need a home someday soon if their racing person doesn't keep them or euthanize them. If they are rehomed, then that means another dog in a shelter won't get a home and will die.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by aly

I tried posting on the GT board about this and I was belittled because I don't own a Greyhound. I tried to explain my experience and was ripped apart. It was just by one person directly (although a few others said the same), but it left me feeling very hurt and bitter. Therefore, I couldn't listen to one thing this person said to me, valid points or not. I've been involved in rescue and dog behavior for over 6 years now. No, I am not an expert on Greyhounds, but I do know a lot. Just because I don't have a Greyhound doesn't mean one should assume I know nothing. And just because someone owns a Greyhound, it shouldn't be assumed that the person is an authority on them. I've met many an owner who knows absolutely nothing about the breed they have. I've also met many a person who knows more than me about the breeds I have, even though they don't own one themselves. I'm fully willing to admit when someone knows more than me. What they do or do not own has nothing to do with their knowledge.

Hey, where did you post in Grey Talk? I want to read where you posted and judge from that point if I want to continue to be a member there. I'm considering exiting the entire pet forum altogether, but, I want to make a more thought out exit if I do. ;)

aly

10-25-2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by guster girl
Hey, where did you post in Grey Talk? I want to read where you posted and judge from that point if I want to continue to be a member there. I'm considering exiting the entire pet forum altogether, but, I want to make a more thought out exit if I do. ;)

It was in the thread that was deleted. That very first thread about this whole hoopla.

You're not going to leave here too are you? :( YOU CAN'T!

Denyce

10-25-2004, 03:14 PM

Hey guster girl!

I hope you don't plan on leaving PT.:( I have always enjoyed your posts and look forward to your thoughts and opinions on topics. Besides seeing your pics! :D :D

Denyce

guster girl

10-25-2004, 03:24 PM

Hey, Aly and Denyce! Aly, I want to send you a private message, but, your mailbox is full! :) But, mostly, I'm just spending so much time on the internet reading on pet talk, I just think when I get a new job (hopefully soon), I'll need to leave it alone for awhile. Nothing major, I don't think I'd quit cold turkey! Ha ha. ;)

Jamieejo85

10-25-2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
Cute doggies everyone! :D

I'm completely sick of the way GT has been talking aobut Pet Talk. :mad:

I guess we're all trolls now.:mad: :rolleyes:

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v95/simnala/FLPTMeet04/12.jpg

Kay, can you post a link so I can read the posts? I have been gone for a couple days..such a nice thread to come back to:rolleyes: I tried clicking a link you posted back on page 4 or 5 and it didn't work:( thanks
~jamie

Kfamr

10-25-2004, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Jamieejo85
Kay, can you post a link so I can read the posts? I have been gone for a couple days..such a nice thread to come back to:rolleyes: I tried clicking a link you posted back on page 4 or 5 and it didn't work:( thanks
~jamie

I believe all of the threads have been deleted now.
It just seems like a few of them think PT is some evil place because of this thread.
I am glad to see a majority of their members have ventured out of this to see the TRUE Pet Talk, though.

Tollers-n-Dobes

10-25-2004, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
I am glad to see a majority of their members have ventured out of this to see the TRUE Pet Talk, though.

So am I:)

zaylagrey

10-25-2004, 03:50 PM

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I've been a member of Greytalk for about six months. and there is a hand full of people there that can get very argumentive. I try to understand it this way, the reason I believe this is such a passionate subject for some of these people is the racing industry is their livelyhood.Generations of families have raised these dogs and trained them. It would be like someone saying what you do for a living is horrible, but you feel there is nothing wronge with it. Of course you'll get defensive about it. There are some there that are over the top to a point of insulting, thats why I don't get involved in those topics there, it has happened to me once before. Then there are some that are very interested in hearing your point of view and answering your questions. About your question of farms, all I know is the ones we deal with as a adoption group. I'm sure there is someone here in the industry that will be more than happy to explain better than I. I do know that there is allot of selected breeding in the process, that is why for a large breed dog allot of diseases have been bred out of their lines. I hope this helped. I do like it here.

Originally posted by aly
No one is scared. We like to try to remain as civil to each other as possible here. Sometimes that means ignoring certain posts that might spark some heated words. I read some of this individual's comments on your forum and while he likes to shoot off at the mouth, it is neither intimidating nor scary.

I understand why you guys were offended when first reading this thread. I am thrilled to see that so many of you ventured into other parts of the board and made introduction threads. This was just one "bad apple" thread among thousands of kind, warm, compassionate threads. I want to thank those that came and offered their opinions/ideas/beliefs without attacking anyone or calling names. It is much easier to have a discussion and learn new things when it is not clouded with juvenile name calling.

I hate to even think that there are "sides" to this in the first place. I think we all agree that Greyhounds love to run and are glad that they have an outlet for that. I think we all agree that there is good and bad in everything and that we should do what we can to help the poor Greyhounds who are stuck with the bad racing owners.

I am not against racing if the dogs are loved, well-cared for, and happy. I am against racing that entails abuse, neglect, and euthanizing the "losers".

I tried posting on the GT board about this and I was belittled because I don't own a Greyhound. I tried to explain my experience and was ripped apart. It was just by one person directly (although a few others said the same), but it left me feeling very hurt and bitter. Therefore, I couldn't listen to one thing this person said to me, valid points or not. I've been involved in rescue and dog behavior for over 6 years now. No, I am not an expert on Greyhounds, but I do know a lot. Just because I don't have a Greyhound doesn't mean one should assume I know nothing. And just because someone owns a Greyhound, it shouldn't be assumed that the person is an authority on them. I've met many an owner who knows absolutely nothing about the breed they have. I've also met many a person who knows more than me about the breeds I have, even though they don't own one themselves. I'm fully willing to admit when someone knows more than me. What they do or do not own has nothing to do with their knowledge.

Oh yeah, one thing I do have a problem with regarding racing are these "Greyhound farms". Please inform me on these (in a nice way). Since I do shelter work every day, the term farm gets to me. Why do you have to mass-produce these racing pups? Couldn't you adopt young Greyhounds from shelters or rescues to race them? Dogs are dying every single day while these farms are bringing more and more dogs into this world. These pups will need a home someday soon if their racing person doesn't keep them or euthanize them. If they are rehomed, then that means another dog in a shelter won't get a home and will die.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by Orangutango
So am I:)

Make that three. ;)

aly

10-25-2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by zaylagrey
I'm so sorry this happened to you. I've been a member of Greytalk for about six months. and there is a hand full of people there that can get very argumentive. I try to understand it this way, the reason I believe this is such a passionate subject for some of these people is the racing industry is their livelyhood.Generations of families have raised these dogs and trained them. It would be like someone saying what you do for a living is horrible, but you feel there is nothing wronge with it. Of course you'll get defensive about it. There are some there that are over the top to a point of insulting, thats why I don't get involved in those topics there, it has happened to me once before. Then there are some that are very interested in hearing your point of view and answering your questions. About your question of farms, all I know is the ones we deal with as a adoption group. I'm sure there is someone here in the industry that will be more than happy to explain better than I. I do know that there is allot of selected breeding in the process, that is why for a large breed dog allot of diseases have been bred out of their lines. I hope this helped. I do like it here.

You did help! Thank you very much for your kind response :D

And I'm so glad you like it here! It really is a great place! Just stay out of the political and religious discussions! Hehe :D

guster girl

10-25-2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by zaylagrey
Of course you'll get defensive about it. There are some there that are over the top to a point of insulting

There are plenty of topics in here that get ugly like that too. What I don't understand, is how people think they are going to enlighten anyone by being hateful and calling them names. and, I'm not just saying the folks that are pro-racing talking down to people that are anti-racing or anti-racers thinking pro-racers are idiots or naive or whatever. I'm talking about all the topics that people are passionate about. You can be passionate and still get your point across, by giving facts supporting your beliefs and simply using a little tact. People seem to lack that frequently. I think that arguing/debating is a healthy thing to be involved in. It's when people start calling others stupid (for any reason), that things start going in reverse. It's like a magic time warp back to junior high. that's why this thread was so crappy to begin with. I like where it's going now, though.

zaylagrey

10-25-2004, 03:59 PM

;)Thanks I'll make note of that..

greysandmoregreys

10-25-2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by aly

Oh yeah, one thing I do have a problem with regarding racing are these "Greyhound farms". Please inform me on these (in a nice way). Since I do shelter work every day, the term farm gets to me. Why do you have to mass-produce these racing pups? Couldn't you adopt young Greyhounds from shelters or rescues to race them? Dogs are dying every single day while these farms are bringing more and more dogs into this world. These pups will need a home someday soon if their racing person doesn't keep them or euthanize them. If they are rehomed, then that means another dog in a shelter won't get a home and will die.

I will do my best to try and explain the greyhound farms. Farms being used for lack of a better word.

This may be long, so sit back, get a cup of coffee, and prop your feet up. I will try to cover from birth up until the point when they go to the race tracks.

Broods are normally kept in an area called a brood house. Just like a boarding kennel they have inside and outside runs. With carpet or some type of bedding to lay on inside with a doggie dog to go out.

The brood is bred, normally AI (artifical insemintion) she is then moved to the welping area of the kennel when she is due.
This area is similar to the brood house but it has a whelping box inside for the momma to have her pups. Most broods are monitered with video cameras or humans to make sure that there are no complications when she's read to give birth. Most owners are there when she gives birth.

The pups are normally moved from the mother when the mother deceides that the times is right.

The pups are then moved to a "puppy" area. Sometimes it's similar to the brood house and other times its to an outside run area that has a large dog hut, house, shelter which again is normally filled with some type of bedding. Hay, straw, something to that effect. During this time the pups play and romp with one another. Work out the pack order and all and all just be puppys.

Once they are around 6months old there moved to what is called long runs. Where there are normally 3 hounds per run. This is where the pups start learning to streatch there legs, build up muscle, the compete with one another by running up and down the fence line with the pups on the other sides. When they get tired they lay down and sleep, soak up the sun, or whatever they chose to do. These runs also have the huts,houses, shelters with bedding also.

At 12 months of age the pups are moved into the "racing/training" kennel which is where they learn about crating, collars, muzzles, turn outs, this is where the real training starts.

They are normally taken to sprint paths with other hounds from different litters. Most training consist of a whirly gig. Which is a long arm that has a stuffy, animal pelt, or something fun with which the pups will want to chase. I teaches them to run turns, because they have only really been in runs that they really don't make a full sweaping turn.

They then go on to the tracks where they learn to chase the mechanical lure. They start out with normally one or two other hounds. Again the compitition between the pups and also chasing that cool thing at the end of a pole. When they finish up the race most farmers give them a squeak toy or something fluffy to play with so they are rewarded for doing good. All the dogs get these not just the winner.

This track training normally goes on about 5 months. When they know what there doing is when the head to the real race tracks.

As far as feeding, worming, and vaccinations there all on set scheduals. Most feeding programs consist of meat, dry dog food, veggies, pasta, plus some type of vitamin supplement. Young pups are not fed raw meat.

Interesting point most farms and kennels will worm there dogs with Ivomec every month or every two months. So by doing this the greyhounds from these farms or from a race track will never have heartworms.

Hope I covered some of the questions you had. Why they are called farms I don't know. Maybe for a lack of better term>

zaylagrey

10-25-2004, 04:43 PM

:) I knew someone who knew what they were talking about would step up to the plate. I even learned something.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 04:46 PM

I think it sounds interesting. I mean, it doesn't sound like a puppy mill, which is what I think a lot of people were imagining. But, I could be wrong about that, too. It doesn't bother me, though, as it sounds like they are well taken care of. The description is very detailed, though, and, I personally thank you for it. :) They certainly get fed well.

Cinder & Smoke

10-25-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by greysandmoregreys
...
The pups are then moved to a "puppy" area. Sometimes it's similar to the brood house and other times its to an outside run area that has a large dog hut, house, shelter which again is normally filled with some type of bedding. Hay, straw, something to that effect. During this time the pups play and romp with one another. Work out the pack order and all and all just be puppys.

Once they are around 6 months old there moved to what is called long runs. Where there are normally 3 hounds per run. This is where the pups start learning to streatch there legs, build up muscle, the compete with one another by running up and down the fence line with the pups on the other sides. When they get tired they lay down and sleep, soak up the sun, or whatever they chose to do. These runs also have the huts,houses, shelters with bedding also.

At 12 months of age the pups are moved into the "racing/training" kennel which is where they learn about crating, collars, muzzles, turn outs, this is where the real training starts.

They are normally taken to sprint paths with other hounds from different litters. Most training consist of a whirly gig...

They then go on to the tracks
where they learn to chase the mechanical lure...

What do the Pups / Young Dogs get in the way of
"Human" Interaction??

How often (or what percentage of the day) do they receive the
"attention" of a Human?
Does anyone "talk" to them;
give them a pat on the head or a friendly *rub*;
do they ever get a real "Walk on a Leash"?

Many Rescue Sites mention the problem that "typical" rescue Greys
"don't Know How to PLAY" and are fearful of almost any human.

/s/ Phred
.

7up

10-25-2004, 05:31 PM

Hi all. 7up here. The illusive poll linking lurker. LOL

Maybe I can add to the confusion with a slightly different viewpoint. I have been on GreyTalk for some time. I am not a fan of greyhound racing and I make that very clear. There are others who feel the same way and we have all grown some pretty thick skin as you might well imagine by now.

I want to let you know that even us greyhound owners have been accused of ignorance for our unsavory opinions because we
either:

1. have not been to a race, or
2. have not been to a kennel, or
3. the kennel we visited was not representative of most kennels, or
4. we lie like dogs (no pun intended).

Even if we meet the above criteria, it has been stated that we still cannot form an opinion without actually working in a kennel. I would venture to guess if we did that it would be the wrong kennel, not long enough or if all else fails, back to "we lied".

There have been blatent lies told in the past by actual anti-racing activists (that which we are not) This has created somewhat of a bitter attitude which you have undoubetdly already noticed. This is part of the reason they reacted to you all the way they did. They feel everyone believes only the lies and bases their opinion on that alone. They do not take into account the opinions you form with your own mind and you ability to give each story you hear the amount of weight deserves. They tend to take opinions too personal at times, as many of us do at some time or another

These are a very passionate bunch who have had some pretty hard knocks in the past and are just now beginning to make headway with public opinion. Not an easy thing to do when certain undeniable facts still exist, but that's another story all together.

I am only hoping to give you a little better idea of what is behind all of this hoopla so that you are not left with the uncertainty (or maybe even hurt feelings) that I think you have now. At least that's the way I read it.

Greyhound forums are generally (and understandably) moderated, so we have not always had the opportunity to hash things out with the racing folks, yet they are making a concerted effort to work with adoption and improve things within the industry. Although we have debated the same issues over and over again until blue in the face, we still continue to spend way too much time with each other. Probably because of the one thing we do have in common which, as you all know, can never be talked about enough.... our dogs (or pets, whatever the case may be). So that's why at any given time, you might find a fued going on at GreyTalk and you are more than welcome to join in the fun before the thread gets nixed. We love "new blood". LOL

I also want to say that these really ARE the good people in racing. I don't agree with them and they don't agree with me. I think the term for this is "agree to disagree" although we haven't succesfully managed to do that for any length of time. Maybe one day they will come around. LOL

What matters most to me is that we continue to work towards our common goal which is 100% greyhound adoption. I am sure you have already heard about that so I won't go into it.

By the way, I still want to answer K9soul's question about the racing situation in other countries. This is one of the areas I actually know something about LOL

"Jay" from GreyTalk

aly

10-25-2004, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Cinder & Smoke
What do the Pups / Young Dogs get in the way of
"Human" Interaction??

How often (or what percentage of the day) do they receive the
"attention" of a Human?
Does anyone "talk" to them;
give them a pat on the head or a friendly *rub*;
do they ever get a real "Walk on a Leash"?

Many Rescue Sites mention the problem that "typical" rescue Greys
"don't Know How to PLAY" and are fearful of almost any human.

/s/ Phred
.

I was curious about this as well. It sounds as though they get great basic care, but not socialization or interaction. Maybe if they were socialized more as puppies, people would stop thinking that a majority of them are abused. It is a common thing to mistake an under-socialized dog for an abused dog. Sometimes dogs cower away from loud noises, human hands, etc simply because they have not been exposed to them, not because they have been hit or yelled at.

After the explaination, it does sound like farm is the best word to describe what goes on. I guess I just have a problem with bringing so many dogs into this world when so many are dying in shelters and on the streets (not to mention the percentage that are euthanized after racing, whatever percentage that may be). I wish racing were a fun sport for the dogs, and not a means of gambling for the people. If it were for fun, then Greyhounds could be adopted from rescues or shelters to race instead of breeding dogs and leaving them in a kennel until they are a year old and ready to start training.

*edit* I know it is a fun sport for the dogs, but I meant to say I wish it was ONLY used for fun and not profit.

sherpayluvsgreys

10-25-2004, 05:41 PM

Hello to you PTers and good to see my GT family as well! I find myself saddened as well as excited about this thread. I think, though, for greyhound owners, it offers a chance to help explain some things about greyhound adoption and the racing industry to those not familiar with it.

I think that greyhound owners are an extremely sensitive group of people. For the majority of retired racing greyhound owners, owning their first grey becomes the beginning of an end, so to speak. Many owners become completely engrossed in what greyhound ownership can mean. It's a life-altering experience to many.

There are so many dynamics to the greyhound. For many, there is the mind-blowing lineage for you to discover. Most greyhounds have family trees that will put most humans to shame. We have websites dedicated to greyhound genealogy and performance. The moment you learn that you can trace your grey's bloodline back to the 1800's, or you first view your grey's past performace lines, you are affected with an intense desire to learn more. Not only about your individual grey, but the industry from which they came.

While I'm only voicing my own opinion, I think most greyhound owners will tell you it's an on going eductional process with an overwhelming amount of information to absorb. People who have been in the industry for decades will tell you that they still learn everyday. I believe what strikes many new greyhound owners first and foremost is the gross abundance of propaganda out there concerning the life of the racing greyhound. Sensationalism at it's best - or worst. Take your pick.

Are there some undersirable sitations out there? Yes, just as there are with any breed. But these are becoming fewer and farther between. What is so exciting is that the greyhound world is in transition, and actually has been for quite some time. But you see, that doesn't make good reading, so that never makes the papers. It's a harsh reality that greyhound folks have sadly become quite accustomed to.

Increasing numbers of adoption groups and racing folks are coming together to fullfill the goal of 100% adoption. The key, we are all discovering, is that working with, instead of against, produces the best win/win situation for all involved. ESPECIALLY the greyhound.

My hope is, as a result of this thread, that non-greyhound people will take the time to learn about the racing greyhound, the industry, and greyhound adoption and form their own educated opinions... not on bias, but fact.

I look forward to browsing through your site, and sharing some of my own life with my two wonderful greyhounds!;)

Perfectweather*

10-25-2004, 05:45 PM

Perhaps I can help with some of your questions......

Puppys on the farm get a lot of attention - afterall, they are puppies and the future of the breed..........Everyday the people or kennel hands or whatever you want to call them feed and water the dogs, clean the runs......There is much interaction on the farm between dogs and humans - since the runs must be weeded along the fence line, fences mended and houses cleaned and re-bedded. Living on a dog farm in the middle of nowhere offers limited entertainment............you make close friends of your dogs.

I would say the least amount of time humans interact with the dogs is when they are in the long runs - from the age of 6 months to say 10 months when they begin lead training and easy, light lure training. Based on my experience, and weighing about 110 pounds, they are just to strong and rowdy to spend much time with...........they cause danger to humans and themselves.

Once they are moved in the kennel training begins in earnest and they are with humans most of the time. They are fed one on one and turned out in small groups four or more times a day. They are handled atleast three times a week for morning work-outs and training. They are handled and spoken to like normal pet dogs and by this time everyone has a name and knows it.........

During turnouts - or group airings - humans are present at all times to prevent trouble among dogs - usually they stand in the middle of the pen and are surrounded by dogs..........

Greyhound pups bound for the track are trained in the art of leash walking just as any other dogs are. Greyhounds should be able to walk on a lead since much of their time at the track and in the track environment depends on them being able to be handled on a leash (we call them leads) in front of a crowd and in most situations. Most greyhounds are excellent leash walkers.

Having spent 25 years training and working with greyhounds, I tend to disagree with your last statement. Greyhounds are amazing amimals because they CAN come from a working environment and easily make the transition to a home animal. They are already on a good schedule which they are used to, they are used to walking on leads and with humans, they are used to being with other dogs and are very social...........They are smart and quick to learn.......attributes which make them so adaptable in the home or at the kennel....

And lastly,yes, they get "real leash walks". Walking is one of the best forms of exercise - dogs are worked for a variety of reasons and one of everyone's favorites is simply taking them for a walk.....while trotting is a dogs natural gait, walking exercises the muscles in the shoulders, hind quarters and neck and back. It's good for humans too!!!

aly

10-25-2004, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Perfectweather*

Having spent 25 years training and working with greyhounds, I tend to disagree with your last statement. Greyhounds are amazing amimals because they CAN come from a working environment and easily make the transition to a home animal. They are already on a good schedule which they are used to, they are used to walking on leads and with humans, they are used to being with other dogs and are very social...........They are smart and quick to learn.......attributes which make them so adaptable in the home or at the kennel....

I didn't say they are all under socialized and I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant that people do jump to conclusions about the ones who are. Although I am not an expert on the racing industry, I do know the breed very well. I have to agree that they are wonderful, graceful, and sweet as pie.

7up

10-25-2004, 06:19 PM

The only area where greyhounds lack socialization is with different breeds, large and small dogs, cats, birds, various types of people, big and small, kids, old folks, whatever, along with all the things in the outside world that are an important part of habituation in puppies, while their brain is developing.

Most greyhounds are wonderfully socialized with other greyhounds and with people when they have enought time to devote to them.

Greyhounds tend to be a little aloof and many of them are genetically shy. Some are also spooks. The shy greyhounds are probably the ones that are most effected by the lack of socialization I mentioned above. While the adjustment perioid from track to home is natural and takes a little time to acclimate to, a good number of greyhounds have more than the usual amount of difficulty dealing with the outside world without a lot of stress. Some can take months or years to lose their fears. Most of them do improve with time but will always have problems with certain things they encounter day to day.

I believe the lack of socialization in these greyhounds in particular, is what causes them so much trouble. But even then, they are such love bugs and courageous souls that they steal your heart away just like all the rest and they do manage just fine.

It is amazing that most greys make the adjustment so easily, considering the change in their environment and whatever other factors that may effect it.

Jay

7up

10-25-2004, 06:24 PM

"Farm" is a very appropriate word because greyhounds are categorized as livestock animals.

Jay

Perfectweather*

10-25-2004, 06:25 PM

Originally posted by aly
I didn't say they are all under socialized and I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant that people do jump to conclusions about the ones who are. Although I am not an expert on the racing industry, I do know the breed very well. I have to agree that they are wonderful, graceful, and sweet as pie.

Yes, people do. People who take an uneducated stance on any issue are somewhat prone to mistakes about said issue.............

One very important fact that must be remembered. A retired track greyhound has spend his entire life - every waking moment with many of his own kind and humans he has come to know and love.............His transition from the farm to the kennel is traumatizing to him - leaving his family of humans for the unknown. He adapts quickly since his routine is all to familiar and his handlers know what he wants and what he expects.

When you take a retired racer from his "track" environment and place him in a home he is lost, confused and totally alone. People who adopt are sometimes so in love and so proud of their dog they want to show them off to everyone right away - perhaps is the dog acts shy or unsure it is because he is....................

Human needs sometimes get in the way of "dog" logic.

7up

10-25-2004, 06:37 PM

By the way, I have one of the shy ones I was telling you all about. I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world. He has just about the best manners I have ever seen in a dog and he learns very quickly what to do in order to be a very"good boy".

He just amazes me. I have had him for over 2 years and his stress continues to lessen with each and every day. It is so heartwarming to see him begin to enjoy things for the first time, like smelling things when we walk or holding his head up and looking around instead of being intent on going straight back home. I often wonder what he will be like years from now.

Jay

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 06:39 PM

Well, now.. I'm one who after being seen in one thread is knwn by a member here as one who "shoots off his mouth"... Oh yeah... I'm the guy who was told by one of your memebers to "go hump your dog"

Man, I love people like you. The kind I'd see in person, give you a wry little smile and keep walking on by.

That said... Care to see some pics of puppies? I've gone and done something that's becoming more and more popular within the greyhound world. It's called "pre-adoption". Meaning, I got to know a breeder/trainer and when she had a broody that had a litter, I fell in love with one of her pups. The breeder/trainer told me that once the pup was done racing ... it could be 3-5 years from now... that the day she comes off the track, she's mine. I'm not the only person, nor am I the first and I certainly wont be the last to go this route. I think you'll find that the people that do this, are commited to these new babies.

Now, I'm going to post a link to a homepage I made for the pup I've pre-adopted that has some pics on teh page itself, the story of her litters birth and some other links including her photo album. All I can do is ask that you look at it with an open mind and realize that everything one reads isn't necessarily so.

Ice Princess's Page (http://hometown.aol.com/greyhounddaddy/page10.html)

7up

10-25-2004, 06:48 PM

Many Rescue Sites mention the problem that "typical" rescue Greys
"don't Know How to PLAY" and are fearful of almost any human.

I wouldn't call it a problem but greyhounds do not usually know how to play (with stuffies for instance), but they sure do manage to develop this talent with little or no help from us. Just supply the stuffy.

Sometimes your existing greyhound will teach the new one and that's always cute to watch.

It also takes the a little time before they will take a treat from your hand. Not like they are afraid, but more because they don't know what to do.

Jay

aly

10-25-2004, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by GreyhoundDaddy
Well, now.. I'm one who after being seen in one thread is knwn by a member here as one who "shoots off his mouth"... Oh yeah... I'm the guy who was told by one of your memebers to "go hump your dog"

Man, I love people like you. The kind I'd see in person, give you a wry little smile and keep walking on by.

That said... Care to see some pics of puppies? I've gone and done something that's becoming more and more popular within the greyhound world. It's called "pre-adoption". Meaning, I got to know a breeder/trainer and when she had a broody that had a litter, I fell in love with one of her pups. The breeder/trainer told me that once the pup was done racing ... it could be 3-5 years from now... that the day she comes off the track, she's mine. I'm not the only person, nor am I the first and I certainly wont be the last to go this route. I think you'll find that the people that do this, are commited to these new babies.

Now, I'm going to post a link to a homepage I made for the pup I've pre-adopted that has some pics on teh page itself, the story of her litters birth and some other links including her photo album. All I can do is ask that you look at it with an open mind and realize that everything one reads isn't necessarily so.

Ice Princess's Page (http://hometown.aol.com/greyhounddaddy/page10.html)

I'm sorry that I offended you because it wasn't my intention.

What I've been trying to say all along (and I'm not sure I've done a good job of it) is that I know you guys care about your dogs. I know there are good breeders and racers who care. I am in no way trying to deny or ignore those facts. It just hurts my heart to know about the ones who don't care though. Just as it hurts my heart to know of the bad breeders of ANY other breed out there.

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 07:20 PM

Look, nobody in the industry is saying that there arent imperfections. They freely admit it. And by all accounts, they are trying to rectify it. People are encouraged to report things to the NGA if they appear to run amok of guidelines.

I dont purport to know ANYTHING about the industry, just what I've read and investigated myself. And just as in any other facet of life, there are those that go about doing things the right way... no matter the expense... and those that do things improperly. It's a asd fact of life that people can be broken down like this, but, it's unfortunately true.

I've had my hound since February 27, 2004. Like I said, in that short time there's no way I can possibly know very much about the dogs themselves or the racing industry. But, I've taken it upon myself to not take things at face value... to delve deeper in to the "problem" so to speak and educate MYSELF. Which is why I listen to both sides of people's arguments. When I first was looking into adoption...and yes.. ADOPTION...I came across GPL's site and was disgusted at the images they posted. I gues people will do anything for shock value (i.e. pro-lifers holding graphic posters at abortion clinics) to try to get a point across. What it did for me was to force me to go deeper than accepting one side's perspective on things.

As far as the incessant posts about "we're getting bashed over on GT".... nah.. just more exaggeration. As I already noted, I called for the person to be banned from both sites who initiated this whole mess.

Dont sweat my feelings ... Messageboards are not where I get the most out of my life. Say whatever you wish, ask whatever yuo wish.. but, be prepared for answers that you may not like :)

Anyway, I'd like to strongly urge you all to take a look at that link I provided in my previous post.. And you tell YOURSELF that those pups aren't getting love, attention, playtime, socialization. Read the story of the night of their birth and tell yourself that they arent given the best possible care available... I think you'll find your eyes might open up a bit.

dukedogsmom

10-25-2004, 07:31 PM

I am so sick of the drama around here lately. It's really getting old.

7up

10-25-2004, 07:40 PM

I can't believe you guys lasted this long!

Jay

guster girl

10-25-2004, 07:54 PM

This thread has actually improved and, appears to be (at least for the time being) an intelligent conversation. I think the drama, at least in this particular thread, has dispersed. Just my opinion, though. :)

guster girl

10-25-2004, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by 7up
I can't believe you guys lasted this long!

Jay

It actually improved when the greyhound owners from Grey Talk came onboard. Again, just my opinion.

jcsperson

10-25-2004, 08:05 PM

Hi everybody. This is my first post here...

Before addressing any issues, I want to introduce myself to everyone. My name is Martin Roper. I'm a small-time racing greyhound owner and long-time pet owner. I'm not a trainer or farmer---my expertise in greyhounds is mostly in the area of greyhound pedigrees and breeding. I am on the staff of the world's largest breed database, http://www.greyhound-data.com/index.htm (Greyhound-data.com). My work in the field is accessed by breeders across the U.S. and even overseas. I am very closely affiliated with a nearby greyhound farm for which I make many of the breeding decisions.

My visit here was prompted by a visit to GreyTalk by several PTers recently. Some have come back here and reported that we are saying that they know "nothing," or are "ignorant" and "stupid." What they failed to reveal was their own behavior over there. Most posted anonymously, so it's hard to say who said it, but one PTer proclaimed him/herself to be "completely educated" in greyhound racing and proceeded to rattle off a litany of fallacies. Considering that there are greyhound trainers, farmers, breeders and adoption reps who have decades of experience in the breed, you can only imagine what kind of reaction that got.

Let me be the first to admit that I was the one who used the term "ignorant." If one looks in the dictionary one will find that it means, "lacking education or knowledge," or "unaware or uninformed." The statements made by many of the "guests" over there, and indeed some members over here, clearly show a lack of knowledge of the facts.

I see many of my GT friends (even you, Jay) have done a fine job representing greyhounds in a very factual manner. The truth is that those who represent the breed can be better custodians of greyhounds. What some people on the lunatic fringe of the AR/ARA world are saying, however, hurls the most outrageous accusations at greyhound racing. Judging by some of the posts here, a lot of that seems to have stuck with people whose only source of knowledge is "a guy I met who has greys who has no reason to lie" or "a web site about greyhounds."

I hear at length the term "the racing industry" bantered around like there is some single entity, some CEO or board of directors, some oligarchy of corporations that "runs the show." The truth is that there are some 400 kennel owners, 400 farmers, hundreds of trainers, and 3,000 NGA members who act as individuals. Each of them is responsible for his or her own behavior.

The breeding and raising of Greyhounds is regulated by the NGA. They are the most tightly regulated dog breed on earth. Farms are regularly inspected by the NGA. Farms found to be deficient can be fined, suspended or even shut down. Egregious violations are met with a lifetime ban from the NGA. I invite comparison with the AKC to see if similar standards are enforced.

Once the dogs are at the track, they come under the scrutiny of the State Gaming Commissions. Kennels and tracks are regularly inspected and the dogs are randomly checked for illegal substances.

Add in the scrutiny of the ARA crowd and the compliant press that hangs upon their every word, and greyhound racing has a light shone on it like few areas in the dog world.

It might interest some of you that I started out adopting a dog from and volunteering for an AR group. I raised $1,000s for them and relayed what they told me far and wide. Without having seen greyhound racing with my own two eyes I had nothing to go on other than what they told me.

It's been quite a journey. A couple visits to a track ("nice---nothing really scary here") to a kennel ("hey---this is nicer than my HS football locker-room!), to a farm (you mean, these pups get to stay with their moms until three months of age and then stay together as a litter 'til 12 months instead of getting jerked out at 8 weeks to live with a human family?").

Pardon my pride here, but greyhounds are the most carefully bred canines on the planet. Their bloodlines go back to the 1700s. They are bred to a performance standard, not one of appearance. Unlike its AKC cousin, of which less than 200 are whelped per year and are grotesquely inbred, racing greyhounds are bred in sufficient numbers to keep the gene pool diverse and healthy for the forseeable future.

Rather than go back and debunk, one by one, all the previously posted errors, I invite you to ask questions and my fellow greyhound enthusiasts will try to answer them as clearly as possible.

Long, I know, but thanks for reading.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson
Hi everybody. This is my first post here...

Long, I know, but thanks for reading.

Welcome to Pet Talk, Martin. I read your posts in Grey Talk, and, posted a few myself, and, I hope that I came across as, at the very least, open minded and tactful. I used the name "guster girl" on all occassions, maybe you'll remember me. :) I have enjoyed reading your post here and hope that you'll stay around.

aly

10-25-2004, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by GreyhoundDaddy
Look, nobody in the industry is saying that there arent imperfections. They freely admit it. And by all accounts, they are trying to rectify it. People are encouraged to report things to the NGA if they appear to run amok of guidelines.

Anyway, I'd like to strongly urge you all to take a look at that link I provided in my previous post.. And you tell YOURSELF that those pups aren't getting love, attention, playtime, socialization. Read the story of the night of their birth and tell yourself that they arent given the best possible care available... I think you'll find your eyes might open up a bit.

I'm confused. I said that I know there are a lot of racers/breeders who are very well cared for ... and that I was concerned about the ones who aren't. Are you just looking for an argument or did you seriously miss that? I am NOT being sarcastic here. I just thought I was making myself as clear as possible saying that I know you guys love and care for your dogs and that there are good racers out there.

Kfamr

10-25-2004, 08:21 PM

jcsperson

10-25-2004, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
I wish this thread would just be locked so we could get on with our "NORMAL PT." [/B] For the most part the tone here is quite civil right now and there is an opportunity for a large number of people to learn something about this magnificent breed.

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
I think this has been said many times yet they fail to see it each time, or just don't want to see it.

I wish this thread would just be locked so we could get on with our "NORMAL PT."

if it bothers you to get educated, quit opening the thread.. I dont believe anyone's holding a gun to yuor head

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:27 PM

If this thread does get locked, I'd like to ask that the greyhound owners not leave Pet Talk. I don't know if that would be enough to make someone leave, but, I just wanted to say that just in case. If this thread wasn't going to be deleted when it was just people bickering, it most definitely shouldn't be now. It's actually a civil thread, now.

Kfamr

10-25-2004, 08:28 PM

I NEVER said that this thread wasn't civil, nor did I say that I didn't want to learn anything.
It just seems like everyone is repeating themselves over and over again which isn't needed.

We all understand that there are good greyhound owners/racers/etc. We have known that from the get-go.
There's nothing more that needs to be said, and I'd honestly like for this thread to be dropped and for all of you newbies to just contribute to the rest of PT instead of just hanging around here. :)

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:31 PM

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:31 PM

I know I'm interested in hearing more of the other side, and, I think Aly's questions should keep coming, too. It's an interesting topic, and, as long as it stays civil, I think there's a lot more to be said from both sides.

aly

10-25-2004, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by GreyhoundDaddy
One shouldn't presume to think every post is directed at him/herself.

It seemed like you were responding to one of my posts even though you didn't quote it. I think instead of agreeing to disagree, you and I are disagreeing to agree! Sheesh! :p

GreyhoundDaddy

10-25-2004, 08:33 PM

or something like that :confused:

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by GreyhoundDaddy
One shouldn't presume to think every post is directed at him/herself.

I thought that, too, but, I think she thought it was more towards her because your response was directly after hers, and, it did seem like you were attempting to answer her questions. I hope Aly comes back and keeps talking with you! I know I'm learning from both of you. ;)

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by aly
It seemed like you were responding to one of my posts even though you didn't quote it. I think instead of agreeing to disagree, you and I are disagreeing to agree! Sheesh! :p

Ok, Aly, we're posting at the same time, now. :)

sherpayluvsgreys

10-25-2004, 08:46 PM

Originally posted by guster girl
I know I'm interested in hearing more of the other side, and, I think Aly's questions should keep coming, too. It's an interesting topic, and, as long as it stays civil, I think there's a lot more to be said from both sides.

guster girl, I like your positive uptake. These are the kinds of threads on GT that really help educate. While they do get sticky, inevitably something is learned.

This is why it would be a shame for this thread to fall apart.

BTW....Martin....well said....as usual.;)

guster girl

10-25-2004, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
guster girl, I like your positive uptake. These are the kinds of threads on GT that really help educate. While they do get sticky, inevitably something is learned.

This is why it would be a shame for this thread to fall apart.

BTW....Martin....well said....as usual.;)

Well, hey! Welcome! :) And, thank you. I'm just happy beyond words that this thread became decent. I don't know if you read the beginning, but, yikes. It wasn't nice. And, nothing was being learned or taught. I like debates, and, this is a fantastic one.

sherpayluvsgreys

10-25-2004, 09:01 PM

I like debates, and, this is a fantastic one.

Well then...you definitely need to get yourself a greyhound! YOu'll have a lifetime supply!;)

K9soul

10-25-2004, 09:04 PM

Martin, I was actually nervous when on GT you seemed so irritated, I was afraid you would come here and say things in a not-so-tactful way, but I think your post was overall pretty tactful. I do know the dictionary definition of the word ignorant isn't bad, but it does often tend to have a more negative connotation when used in conversation, people tend to feel it is calling them stupid rather than uneducated or misinformed. I agree when speaking about professions, organizations, and agencies (and even message boards ;)), people often tend to get lumped together. I think we're all guilty of it here and there, I admit it, I've made comments like "I'm sick of doctors" after having bad experience with a few doctors, or "you can't trust any politician." How many times has much of society bashed lawyers as greedy scum? Yet we have a close personal family friend who is a lawyer and is passionate about his work.

It all makes a point that lumping all people together is never good, at the same time I think it's a somewhat natural tendency. Heck even men and women tend to do it with the sexes, or older and younger with ages.

I'm as guilty as as anyone of having a pre-made image in my mind of people in the "racing industry." While there are still things that bother me, I have learned a lot too, and I'm reminded again two very important things: 1) Things aren't always exactly as they appear, and more importantly 2) It is never accurate or fair to lump people together into one category.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 09:06 PM

Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
Well then...you definitely need to get yourself a greyhound! YOu'll have a lifetime supply!;)

Ha ha, I am sure I will adopt one eventually. I saw my first greyhound puppy at the dog park a few months ago. I didn't even know what he was, because I'd never seen a young greyhound before! His tail was out of control, like he had a snake stuck to his butt! His name's Derrick, and, he's gorgeous! I never had my camera with me, though, when he was around, but, man, did he ever make me want a puppy like him!

jcsperson

10-25-2004, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
Martin, I was actually nervous when on GT you seemed so irritated, I was afraid you would come here and say things in a not-so-tactful way, but I think your post was overall pretty tactful.

It all makes a point that lumping all people together is never good, at the same time I think it's a somewhat natural tendency. Heck even men and women tend to do it with the sexes, or older and younger with ages.

I'm as guilty as as anyone of having a pre-made image in my mind of people in the "racing industry." While there are still things that bother me, I have learned a lot too, and I'm reminded again two very important things: 1) Things aren't always exactly as they appear, and more importantly 2) It is never accurate or fair to lump people together into one category.
I wish I could tell you how infuriating it is to hear people toss out words like "disgusting," "inhumane," and "sick" when they talk about racing. The way ARAs casually demonize and slander racing and racing people goes beyond the pale. If you sensed irritation on my part I can assure you it was quite real. I can't tell you how hard it is to face relentless and malicious ignorance on a daily basis.

We are fortunate to have forums like GT and PT so that debate can be engaged and their voices and ours can be heard side-by-side and compared on merit. As hard as it is to resist lashing out at them, I've found that the best thing to do is let them talk. Luckily, most ARAs come off as shrill, mean-spirited and unknowledgeable.

I've enjoyed your posts over on GT. My guess is you're learning a lot.

Martin

sherpayluvsgreys

10-25-2004, 09:29 PM

K-9Soul, yes, Martin is....uh...."well expressed" to say the least. He, many others, and a few who have posted here, have been fighting this battle for years. Despite years of improvements and tireless efforts made by many, John Q public still likes to take the sympathy line hook line and sinker. As I mentioned earlier, the positive things that are, and have been happening in the industry are overlooked in the media because it doesn't sell.

guster girl

10-25-2004, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
K-9Soul, yes, Martin is....uh...."well expressed" to say the least. He, many others, and a few who have posted here, have been fighting this battle for years. Despite years of improvements and tireless efforts made by many, John Q public still likes to take the sympathy line hook line and sinker. As I mentioned earlier, the positive things that are, and have been happening in the industry are overlooked in the media because it doesn't sell.

It's just like the plight of the pit bull. No matter how many people have great stories, great memories, and great pitbulls, the media will always portray them as killers.

7up

10-25-2004, 09:49 PM

Love Greyhounds

10-26-2004, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by aly
I'm confused. I said that I know there are a lot of racers/breeders who are very well cared for ... and that I was concerned about the ones who aren't. Are you just looking for an argument or did you seriously miss that? I am NOT being sarcastic here. I just thought I was making myself as clear as possible saying that I know you guys love and care for your dogs and that there are good racers out there.

Neglect of medical care is the biggest problem that greyhound adoption groups have to deal with. Many people in adoption have seen hundreds of greyhounds loaded with internal and external parasites, some with untreated illnesses, open wounds, broken bones, dislocated toes, and occasionally things ilke mange, and ringworm.

While the good people in racing take excellent care of their dogs, and some even pay for spaying and neutering at retirement, there are others in racing who pay for nothing when the greyhound is finished with his racing career. Adoption groups that are entirely self-supporting struggle to pay for the medical care and treatment of the greyhounds they place for adoption from these other sources.

These people run an adoption/rescue program in FL.
http://www.ahome4greys.org/

jcsperson

10-26-2004, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by Love Greyhounds
Neglect of medical care is the biggest problem that greyhound adoption groups have to deal with. Many people in adoption have seen hundreds of greyhounds loaded with internal and external parasites, some with untreated illnesses, open wounds, broken bones, dislocated toes, and occasionally things ilke mange, and ringworm.

While the good people in racing take excellent care of their dogs, and some even pay for spaying and neutering at retirement, there are others in racing who pay for nothing when the greyhound is finished with his racing career. Adoption groups that are entirely self-supporting struggle to pay for the medical care and treatment of the greyhounds they place for adoption from these other sources.

One of the sources of continuing irritation and frustration for racing people who do it right are those in the business who do not. I think AR groups tend to see the worst dogs because they get the dogs that people are just handing over. As a result they tend to see a higher proportion of hard cases than PR groups.

The dog owners who do right by their dogs not only take care of any physical problems prior to handing them over, but give the group a donation to cover feed and neutering. That means a portion of the adoption fee can be used for rent and other expenses.

Tonya

10-26-2004, 07:28 PM

I would never go. Horse racing bothers me also. I can't say that I hate the people that do Greyhound racing because I know nothing about it. But I am not the least bit interested in finding out.

lovemygreys7

10-26-2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Tonya
I would never go. Horse racing bothers me also. I can't say that I hate the people that do Greyhound racing because I know nothing about it. But I am not the least bit interested in finding out.

Why does it bother you? Just curious.

lizbud

10-26-2004, 08:24 PM

I'd like to hear some of the new Greyhound lovers thoughts
about this Greyhound site. http://www.greyhounds.org/

You can skip the intro if you like & get right to the informational
pages. Please read all of it and then give some honest opinions.

zaylagrey

10-26-2004, 08:33 PM

:o Oh boy this should be fun....;)

sherpayluvsgreys

10-26-2004, 08:52 PM

micki76

10-26-2004, 08:56 PM

Why do they want to end greyhound racing? Serious question. What would be the benefit?

Giselle

10-26-2004, 08:59 PM

If you skim this thread, the acronym GPL comes up quite often. I think you'll get a pretty clear picture of some of our opinions... Anyhow, I'll just say GPL is PeTA for Greyhounds.

DogLover9501

10-26-2004, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by micki76
Why do they want to end greyhound racing? Serious question. What would be the benefit?

I would *guess* less greyhounds bred? Since alot are bred for racing?

Giselle

10-26-2004, 09:00 PM

Originally posted by micki76
Why do they want to end greyhound racing? Serious question. What would be the benefit?

Not the same but...

Why do they want to ban Pit bulls? What would be the benefit of banning pitties? Honestly, I think people push this out-of-sight, out-of-mind thing too far.

micki76

10-26-2004, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Giselle
Not the same but...

Why do they want to ban Pit bulls? What would be the benefit of banning pitties? Honestly, I think people push this out-of-sight, out-of-mind thing too far.

No, I mean what does GPL gain by banning greyhound racing? Sorry if I wasn't clear.

jcsperson

10-26-2004, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
I'd like to hear some of the new Greyhound lovers thoughts
about this Greyhound site. http://www.greyhounds.org/

You can skip the intro if you like & get right to the informational
pages. Please read all of it and then give some honest opinions.

In this case "informational pages" is a misnomer.

GPL is the PETA of the greyhound world. They are the lunatic fringe, the zealots of the greyhound world.

They extrapolate unusual incidents into industry-wide standards. They often invent problems where there are none at all. They exaggerate every number several-fold.

Two of their pillars of belief, puppy culling and the controversy they've created over "4D" meat do not exist at all. Their knowledge of greyhound racing is pitifully small.

It should be noted that GPL is not an adoption or rescue organization. Money sent to them goes to fund their political efforts to get racing banned.

If you have specific questions about their website let me know---I could write a book about the inconsistencies there, but I don't have room for it here.

jcsperson

10-26-2004, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by micki76
No, I mean what does GPL gain by banning greyhound racing? Sorry if I wasn't clear. It's not a matter of gain---it's hard to measure the motivation of a zealot. What does PETA have to gain from banning meat from our diet? It's a nebulous question. I think some people just need to have a cause.

micki76

10-26-2004, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson
Two of their pillars of belief, puppy culling and the controversy they've created over "4D" meat do not exist at all. Their knowledge of greyhound racing is pitifully small.

Ok. Now you're making blanket statements and saying none of this exists at all. I'm sorry, but surely you must admit that it does happen to some extent. I'm sure there's all level of corruption in Greyhound racing, just as there is in horse racing and other sports that involve humans, money, and anything (or anyone) who can't speak up for themselves.

I hope that doesn't come accross as an attack, I just felt that was an innacurate statement. I realize that not all tracks are evil, or staffed with dog killers, but to close your eyes and say it's all great and nothing the other side says is true, is burying your head in the sand as I stated earlier.

Originally posted by jcsperson
It's not a matter of gain---it's hard to measure the motivation of a zealot. What does PETA have to gain from banning meat from our diet? It's a nebulous question. I think some people just need to have a cause.

I thought it was something along those lines, but I wasn't sure if they had anything tangible to actually gain from it.

K9soul

10-26-2004, 09:23 PM

Two of their pillars of belief, puppy culling and the controversy they've created over "4D" meat do not exist at all.

I do not know what the "4D" meat controversy is about, but the puppy culling thing actually does sound very unlikely. Even someone who cared absolutely nothing about their dogs would not randomly kill puppies before racing age since they can't tell how well they will race until nearly adults right? I wouldn't think you could tell how a dog would race as a little pup.

Love Greyhounds

10-26-2004, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson
One of the sources of continuing irritation and frustration for racing people who do it right are those in the business who do not. I think AR groups tend to see the worst dogs because they get the dogs that people are just handing over. As a result they tend to see a higher proportion of hard cases than PR groups.

My group was NOT AR. It was neutral.

You're indicating that PR groups get cash and medical tx for the dogs, while neutral and AR groups pick up the tab for everything else.

jcsperson

10-26-2004, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by micki76
Ok. Now you're making blanket statements and saying none of this exists at all. I'm sorry, but surely you must admit that it does happen to some extent. I'm sure there's all level of corruption in Greyhound racing, just as there is in horse racing and other sports that involve humans, money, and anything (or anyone) who can't speak up for themselves.

I hope that doesn't come accross as an attack, I just felt that was an innacurate statement. I realize that not all tracks are evil, or staffed with dog killers, but to close your eyes and say it's all great and nothing the other side says is true, is burying your head in the sand as I stated earlier.

Let's stick with the issues of puppy culling and 4D meat for now to prevent this from going in several directions at once.

Puppy Culling

"As of 2001, the Greyhound Protection League estimated close to 27,000 dogs were registered to race, most born at professional breeding farms. In 2001, close to 18,000 puppies and adult greyhounds were culled or killed, according to the organization."

There is no need to estimate the numbers of dogs registered. The figures are published monthly in Greyhound Review:

2003 26,277
2002 27,142
2001 26,797
2000 26,464
1999 27,059
1998 26,036
1997 28,025
1996 28,877

Note that there has been a downward trend in registrations over the years. Historically, 80% of all pups whelped are registered. In the only five year span I could find recorded, here are the actual whelpings:

2000 34,141
1999 33,256
1998 35,801
1997 35,730
1996 36,688

Using the 2,000 figures as an example, GPL simply subtracts 26,464 from 34,141 and assumes that 7,677 pups were "culled." They do not take into account that every birth, whether stillborn or not, every puppy, whether sickly or not, is factored into that 34,141 figure. Puppy mortality in dogs can be as high as 30%, higher in small breeds, but is typically 15-25 percent. If you do the math on our 2000 example the number is 22.5%. According to the AR crowd, all these puppies were "culled." Additionally, a number of puppies who are obviously unsuitable for the track are sold as pets. These, of course, were "culled," too.

"Puppy culling" is one of the central myths of the Anti-Racing movement. It is the only way they can make their numbers work. The truth is that there is no possible reason to cull puppies in greyhounds. In show dogs, a puppy with a coat color that is not to the breed standard is often destroyed. The only time a puppy will be euthanized at a greyhound farm is when it is born so sickly that its survivability is in doubt and the only question is how much suffering it will endure. At the farm where my greyhounds were raised the farmer goes to extreme measures to save every sick puppy. One such puppy slept in her bed for three weeks until healthy enough to return to his dam. His name is Express Scrapper and he went on to finish third in the 2003 Great Greyhound Race to future Hall-of-Famer EA's Itzaboy. He earned his name Scrapper because of his will to live.

A good dam will cost you $1,000 to $15,000. The breeding to a top sire costs $1,000 to $3,000. The Artificial Implantation fees are around $500. Transportation of the bitch to the sire and back by truck could be $200 depending on distance---by air even more. With up-front costs that could range from $3,000 to $20,000, why would anyone cull the results? Furthermore, pups at the most recent NGA auction fetched $2,500 to $51,000. Why would someone deprive themselves of this income potential? The belief in culling by the AR movement is unfounded, confounding and illogical.

4D meat

The much derided 4D meat (Dead, Decaying, Diseased, Disabled) is a favorite of the AR crowd who do not understand what it is. It is, in fact, any meat not approved for human use. Imagine a line of steers at a slaughterhouse. While in line, a cow falls over and dies of an aneurysm. It could be dragged ten feet into the building and butchered, but is officially unfit for human consumption by the USDA because it died and was not killed. The primary buyer of 4D meat is the pet food induustry. If you use a premium brand of dog food, you fed some to your pet today.

My farmer friend's husband had duties out of town so I volunteered to help pick up a load of beef from a slaughterhouse to take to her farm, a ton in all. We got a little tour of the facility inculding the "kill" floor where several carcasses were being cut up by workers with electric chainsaws suspended from overhead racks. The meat was loaded on pallets and rolled directly to the grinder and then directly into the freezer. From there, the meat was delivered to greyhound kennels, farms and dogfood manufacturers by refrigerated trucks.

To me, the most interesting part of the tour was meeting a USDA inspector. He was there taking samples of the brains of every cow to inspect for Mad Cow Disease. I thought it was especially interesting that they were inspecting for Mad Cow even though none of the meat at this facility was destined for human consumption.

You might also be interested to know that the USDA has mandated that charcoal chips are mixed in with 4D meat to render it unpalatable to human consumption. It seems that many people know that 4D meat is really no different than regular ground beef and found the cost at 20% of grocery store prices appealing.

lovemygreys7

10-26-2004, 10:08 PM

What jcsperson said :)

As usual Martin - you have a way of relaying the truth in a clear and concise manner. Thanks.

micki76

10-26-2004, 10:09 PM

Sighting figures won't make me believe one over the other. This GPL seems extreme (similar to PETA), but I do believe that much of their propaganda does happen to an extent. No, I've never been to a track, never been to a kennel. But! Aha there it is. :) But, I do believe that there's a huge facet of people out there that just don't care about animals. I believe there's a huge facet who just care about money, and what’s in it for them. We’ve all seen and heard about all the animal cruelty in the world, and I just see this as another opportunity for evil people to do their evil deeds. Not everyone, or perhaps even the majority involved in racing are cruel, killing dogs, or crating them for 20+ hours a day. BUT SOME ARE. Honestly, that's what matters to me. I don't go to AKC dogs shows, don't go to dog races, don't go to horse races. I've seen agility done, like many of our members, by companion animals who live in the home with their family and not in a kennel. I don't support any "sport" where animals are a commodity of any sort.

I would most likely be a vegetarian to a large degree if I could be, but I have a medical issue that limits my intake of fruits and vegetables and forces me to eat a larger portion of meats than I like.

jcsperson

10-27-2004, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by micki76
Sighting figures won't make me believe one over the other. This GPL seems extreme (similar to PETA), but I do believe that much of their propaganda does happen to an extent. No, I've never been to a track, never been to a kennel. But! Aha there it is. :) But, I do believe that there's a huge facet of people out there that just don't care about animals. I believe there's a huge facet who just care about money, and what’s in it for them. We’ve all seen and heard about all the animal cruelty in the world, and I just see this as another opportunity for evil people to do their evil deeds. Not everyone, or perhaps even the majority involved in racing are cruel, killing dogs, or crating them for 20+ hours a day. BUT SOME ARE. Honestly, that's what matters to me. I don't go to AKC dogs shows, don't go to dog races, don't go to horse races. I've seen agility done, like many of our members, by companion animals who live in the home with their family and not in a kennel. I don't support any "sport" where animals are a commodity of any sort.

I'm sorry that the numbers aren't convincing to you. Anybody who has ever bred dogs knows that puppy mortality is a fact, yet GPL seems to be in complete denial about this.

Nobody is disputing that some people in the business don't do the best for their dogs after they are through racing. The evidence is pretty clear about that.

The essential question is whether greyhound racing is inherently bad or that the problems it has are the conduct of individuals. Stated differently; Is the entire concept bad because of the behavior of a minority of the individuals who engage in it? (Keep this question in mind as you read on.)

Some of the worst cases of misconduct, abuse, or neglect I've ever seen were from pet owners, the "companion animals who live in the home" you speak of. In fact, there is an AR adoption group in AZ that shows an emaciated, sore-ridden greyhound on the cover of its brochure and proceeds, through the next several pages, to hurl one accusation after another at greyhound racing. It is not until page 7 that one finds out that the greyhound in the picture was taken out of a home, not from a kennel or farm.

Hardly a day goes by when one doesn't see on the local or national news a story of animal abuse or neglect, whether it is cats, dogs, horses or what have you. Multiply what you see on local TV by every locale nationally and you begin to see the scope of the problem. These aren't racing greyhounds, but Pit Bulls, Labs, Rottweilers, kittens, etc., etc.

(Remember my question above.) If one applied the same criteria to pet ownership that ARA groups apply to dog racing, that some abuse requires banning the sport, then some abuse of companion animals requires banning pet ownership.

Philosophically, this is the ultimate goal of organizations like PETA and HSUS. In the end, they are trying to legislate morality on those who do right by their animals as much as those who don't.

sherpayluvsgreys

10-27-2004, 11:57 AM

What I also find interesting is that when this same poll in conducted on a PET GREYHOUND forum, with members fairly well educated on the ins and outs of greyhound racing, the outcome is much different....:rolleyes: :cool:

guster girl

10-27-2004, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson

(Remember my question above.) If one applied the same criteria to pet ownership that ARA groups apply to dog racing, that some abuse requires banning the sport, then some abuse of companion animals requires banning pet ownership.

Philosophically, this is the ultimate goal of organizations like PETA and HSUS. In the end, they are trying to legislate morality on those who do right by their animals as much as those who don't.

This was an incredible post to read, I'm really looking forward to seeing responses to this. Thanks for taking the time to post in here!

K9soul

10-27-2004, 01:08 PM

Ok in all honesty, I really wish it would become a leisure sport and not a money-making business because I think the fact that money and gambling is involved is what makes it, IN MY OPINION, have more potential for some owners to make the dollar their top priority to the detriment of their dogs. I feel the same about horse racing. Now where my education is limited is just how much money is typically involved in it, and how easy it is to "make it big" by having successful racers. I fully admit to being uneducated on that aspect.

From what I saw and experienced in my time around people in the conformation show world, the truly responsible breeders could not make a living off the breeding and raising of show dogs, the overhead in doing it properly was more than the sales they made, and the ones that seemed more responsible didn't seem to be breeding constantly. I did see breeding that seemed wholly bent on getting that perfect winning dog rather than on health, soundness and diverse bloodlines.

I don't know, I guess what I'm saying is personally I'd like to see it be more like flyball or agility, because if the money and business aspect of it was gone or at least muted, I feel the 'bad apples' would be less prone to get involved with it.

aly

10-27-2004, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
What I also find interesting is that when this same poll in conducted on a PET GREYHOUND forum, with members fairly well educated on the ins and outs of greyhound racing, the outcome is much different....:rolleyes: :cool:

Of course it is different there. A lot of people there are involved in the racing industry and tell the others how great it is. (I am sure it IS great for your members because I'm sure they do it the right way and care for their dogs). Therefore, the members from the forum who don't know anything about it will tend to like it because they are only seeing the good side.

Some of us only see the bad side. Some see both sides. I don't know why it is automatically assumed that we don't know anything about it here. Not one person has ever denied that there is good in it. We have all acknowledged that.

All any of us can do is educate ourselves to the best of our ability and take BOTH sides with a grain of salt. It doesn't make someone ignorant or close-minded if they have a different opinion from your own (not directing this to you sherpayluvsgreys).

Yes, animal abuse occurs in all areas. How realisitic is it to say no one can own pets though? The amount of neglect and abuse towards animals makes me SICK and I do everything I can every day of my life to stop it. But it'd be a bit silly to say no one can own a pet. Why couldn't we take the gambling aspect out of Greyhound racing? That sounds much more realistic to me. Take out the profit to humans and make it solely a fun thing to do for the dogs. Stop mass-producing these puppies at the Greyhound farms and just run your own dogs at the races for the fun of it. After the race, take them home to your bed instead of to a kennel. It would most likely get rid of a lot of the bad apples who keep and race the Greyhounds solely for profit, not because they care if the dog is having fun or not.

micki76

10-27-2004, 01:23 PM

I agree Jessica. You said what I've been trying to say, only much better! :)

To compare pet ownership with racing is comparing apples to oranges IMO, but I do get you're point.

Good post, Aly.

guster girl

10-27-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by aly

Yes, animal abuse occurs in all areas. How realisitic is it to say no one can own pets though?

I think he was just comparing GPL to PETA, which would like to make it so that no one can own pets, because they see it as only beneficial to the humans, not to the pet.

K9soul

10-27-2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by sherpayluvsgreys
What I also find interesting is that when this same poll in conducted on a PET GREYHOUND forum, with members fairly well educated on the ins and outs of greyhound racing, the outcome is much different....:rolleyes: :cool:

Oh, I also wanted to say here that I think even on a totally Pet Greyhound forum with no racing people as members, the poll would still have had more people say they were interested in going no matter their stance, because I think people are naturally more curious about their dog's heritage and background. I'm probably not stating this well, so I'll use an example. When I was younger one of my dogs was bred to be a show dog and even though previously I hadn't been interested as much in seeing a dog show, I became MUCH more interested when I had a dog who had shown and been bred to show.

Now I will admit that I did a better job in making sure I was educated on both sides of the situation once I had a "show dog", but a lot of people who have never been involved in showing or owned a show dog have some bad ideas about "show people" and I found, naturally, some of it was true.. more than I was comfortable with for sure, and of course there were showers who were also passionate about their dogs and made all their decisions based on the dog's best interest. I have mixed feelings on the show world, I wish some things about it could be more regulated. I think an inbred dog should not be allowed to be registered or shown for starters.

aly

10-27-2004, 01:49 PM

micki76

10-27-2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by guster girl
I think he was just comparing GPL to PETA, which would like to make it so that no one can own pets, because they see it as only beneficial to the humans, not to the pet.

I think think this may be what Aly was referring to.

Originally posted by jcsperson
(Remember my question above.) If one applied the same criteria to pet ownership that ARA groups apply to dog racing, that some abuse requires banning the sport, then some abuse of companion animals requires banning pet ownership.

guster girl

10-27-2004, 02:29 PM

I dunno, I see the comparison. Comparing apples and oranges is still fruit. :) Just my opinion, though.

sherpayluvsgreys

10-27-2004, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by aly
[B]Of course it is different there. A lot of people there are involved in the racing industry and tell the others how great it is. (I am sure it IS great for your members because I'm sure they do it the right way and care for their dogs). Therefore, the members from the forum who don't know anything about it will tend to like it because they are only seeing the good side.

Regardless of who is influencing who, the point is that the more educated one becomes on greyhound racing, the more accepting one tends to be.

Greytalk, up until fairly recently, was considered by the greyhound industry to be an anit-racing community. The vast majority of its members do not work within the industry. That's another board called Global Greyhounds.:)

7up

10-27-2004, 02:54 PM

When you look at the GPL web site, this page is the one that says it all.

http://www.greyhounds.org/gpl/contents/media_cases2.html

One can always point out that the media only reports sensationalism and that facts are not presented with precise accuracy. One can always take each case and argue the intricate details, point out the flaws, etc., etc. But no one can say these things did not happen. This is the history of the "bad side" of greyhound racing.

PETA has videos that can literally break your heart if you have the strength to watch them. I am level headed enough to realize that there can be more to these stories. That people have gone so far as to stage scenes and cause harm to animals for the pupose of filming a sad video. I would not know which one was true, unless I was right there at the time that it happened. I also do not assume all their videos and stories are valid or invalid, based on what I have heard about one.

I have only had the guts to watch two of their videos and all I can say is I wished I hadn't. If there were even the slightest chance that these things happened as they showed, it was well worth showing them. Regardless of what got those animals into their situations, I am grateful that someone cared enough to try and help get them out. What I saw was of no medical benefit to anyone. The animals were clearly being abused. It is not a difficult concept to believe. I feel that PETA's intentions were to help those animals by exposing this abuse and I am grateful that they were able to do so. One video disturbed me so much that I actually wrote PETA, to ask about the status. Their answer was factual and verifiable and did not include a request for money or anything else from me. I never heard from them again. I was actually quite impressed, considering what I have heard about them. That is my only experience with PETA.

I feel the same way about the folks who uncover the abuses in greyhound racing. Whether or not they sensationalize is not important to me. If half the stories on that page were due to outside pet owner abuse, it still would not make any of it okay. I am against any type of pet abuse and I have the same opinion about anyone who is responsible for it.

When people are accused of animal abuse, I am right in there with the rest, encouraging their punishment and calling for any type of restrictions that can be given to prevent them from doing it again. You could even call that pushing for abolishment of pet ownership. If there were an entity, a group or some type of industry that could be identified, I would want restrictions to be placed on that industry and if that were not possible, I would want to see it banned. Whatever is necessary to end the abuse is what I want to happen. And yes, I would also consider the feasability and the overall effects.

I don't want greyhound racing to be banned if it can exist without killing all these hounds. After spending a huge amount of time learning as much as I have, I have come to realize that it is a possibility. But I will never accept it the way it is without the acknowledgement that certain problems do in fact still exist (to a lesser degree) and I am more interested in what can be done to prevent future problems, than how much better things have already gotten. Yep, I still see the half empty glass, but it is filling up.

Greyhound racing has a ways to go before my overall opinion will change. I still think it sucks. I don't care about gambling. I care about greyhounds. I do what I can through adoption and could do even more if I got off my butt more often and I am glad that there are industry people who have the same good intentions and work toward the same goal. It is however, important to me that everyone else is given all the answers, the whole story, the good and the bad. Because without them, greyhound adoption would not be possible. I feel they have the right to know that there are many greyhounds who still don't make it into homes and there always will be a need for help.

Before anyone jumps in and calls that "pity", let me say this. I never pitied a greyhound. I wanted a dog who fit my lifestyle and looked first at the ones who were more in need. I have since made a valuable contribution to the greyhound adoption effort and it is because I learned from my greyhounds how much I love this wonderful breed.

Jay

zaylagrey

10-27-2004, 02:57 PM

...And there's member's on Grey talk that are nuetral and anti-racing as well, mainly because they don't like the gambling aspect of it or they work in the adoption trenches and see dogs come in in horrible shape. Like I said before you got GPL on one side and the racing industry on the other and the truth lies somewhere in between.

7up

10-27-2004, 03:40 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but there are also other greyhound message boards and the Greyhound-List that have a different ratio of pro vs. anti racing members/opinions.

GreyTalk is the one that the racing folks are concentrating most of their effort on.

Jay

jcsperson

10-27-2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by aly
I don't know why it is automatically assumed that we don't know anything about it here. Not one person has ever denied that there is good in it. We have all acknowledged that.

I disagree. Go back and read some of the posts that used adjectives like "sick," "disgusting" and "inhumane" to describe greyhound racing.

jcsperson

10-27-2004, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by 7up
I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but there are also other greyhound message boards and the Greyhound-List that have a different ratio of pro vs. anti racing members/opinions.

GreyTalk is the one that the racing folks are concentrating most of their effort on.

Their "effort," Jay?

You make it sound like a PR campaign---a concerted lobbying effort to spread propaganda and brainwash the masses.

What you are seeing is greyhound lovers of a different sort than you are used to seeing. GT people are finding out that racing people take cutesy pictures of their dogs, have little nicknames for them, and let them sleep in their beds.

We aren't hammer-wielding Neanderthals culling puppies for kicks as GPL likes to paint us.

aly

10-27-2004, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson
I disagree. Go back and read some of the posts that used adjectives like "sick," "disgusting" and "inhumane" to describe greyhound racing.

I am pretty sure almost everyone who used one of those adjectives has come back and acknowledged that there is good in racing, but they were disgusted with the bad :) Some of us did get carried away at first after the post saying that there was NO bad in it so stronger words may have been used.

Love Greyhounds

10-27-2004, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by jcsperson
Their "effort," Jay?

You make it sound like a PR campaign---a concerted lobbying effort to spread propaganda and brainwash the masses.

What you are seeing is greyhound lovers of a different sort than you are used to seeing. GT people are finding out that racing people take cutesy pictures of their dogs, have little nicknames for them, and let them sleep in their beds.

We aren't hammer-wielding Neanderthals culling puppies for kicks as GPL likes to paint us.

I say again, that the truth lies somewhere inbetween. The extremist end of the pro-racing faction perceives AR, ARA, and anyone who says anything negative, to be an enemy. If the industry was sufficiently policing itself, there would be very little negative publicity, and no need for anyone else to be concerned about it. It's a cop-out to keep using the GPL as an excuse.

Of course, 4D meat is perfectly safe, and anyone who wants to google Alabama Rot will find the connection.

cali

10-27-2004, 04:55 PM

who said their was NO bad in greyhound racing? I did not plan to get into this again, but I shall take a quote from my post that got attacked in the first place:

there ARE greys that are treated badly

DogLover9501

10-27-2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by cali
who said their was NO bad in greyhound racing? I did not plan to get into this again, but I shall take a quote from my post that got attacked in the first place:

You also said that they are rarely in danger of being put down, and in your very first post in this thread it SEEMED as if you were saying that ALL racing greyhounds get massages, one on one time, high quality food, and all get placed in homes/rescues.

I think that's what Aly meant.

jcsperson

10-27-2004, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
Ok in all honesty, I really wish it would become a leisure sport and not a money-making business because I think the fact that money and gambling is involved is what makes it, IN MY OPINION, have more potential for some owners to make the dollar their top priority to the detriment of their dogs. I feel the same about horse racing. Now where my education is limited is just how much money is typically involved in it, and how easy it is to "make it big" by having successful racers. I fully admit to being uneducated on that aspect.
Your wish sounds promising, but the problem is that the number of greyhounds that actually participate in lure coursing is very small. Right now the greyhound gene pool is genetically diverse with more than 500 sires and thousands of brood bitches representing 46 greyhound families.

By contrast, the AKC registers only about 160 dogs per year. They're pedigrees are saturated with the same bloodlines.

Here is a typical example I clicked on at random on Greyhound-data.com:

http://www.greyhound-data.com/db.php?i=351773 (Shalfleet Eaglelodge Laughing)

Note its ancestors:
Treetops Hawk 4*4*4*4*4*4*5*5*6
Treetops Flicka of Canfield 5*5*5*5*5*5*5*5*6*6*6*6
Treetops Golden Falcon 3*3*4
Courtmoor Christmas Star 3*3
Treetops Penelope of Canfield 4*4*5*5
Barum Carlanga Conquest 5*5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Parcancady Dancer 5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Parcancady Lady 5*6*6*6*6*6*6*6
Viverdon Fancy Lady 5*6

Compare that disaster with the most tightly linebred NGA greyhound I know:

http://www.greyhound-data.com/db.php?i=261494 (Algoa Boss)

Fresh Approach 3*3
My Unicorn 3*4
Final Approach 4*4*4
Onie Jones 4*4*4
Carbella 4*4

It doesn't take a dog breeder to see the difference. AKC greyhounds are dangerously inbred. At 160 dogs a year it qualifies as a rare breed.

Right now, the AKC breeders have the luxury of being able to outcross occasionally to NGA blood. If racing went away completely that "safety valve" would be lost as breedings would plummet. Greyhound racing is the "family business" for 100s of breeders. If they could not make a living at it they would be completely disinclined to continue the expensive proposition of breeding greyhounds---they'd be too busy putting their lives back together and looking for work. Some of these folks are three and four generation breeders whose families shaped the greyhound we have today. Their breeding stock is a storehouse of greyhound genetic history. With these professionals out of the business the breed would be left to the backyard breeder with all that portends.