Need some advice

[aly]

Ok guys, I got a little situation here. For those of you who don't know Lolly's history, I'll give a brief rundown. She was abused for 5 years by the man who owned her. I am not sure if the wife did too, but she let it happen obviously, which I think is just as bad. Well when the two got a divorce, the woman moved somewhere where she couldn't have pets, and their 5 dogs were almost shot to death by the man then ended up in 3 different shelters.

Anyway, my supervisor at the shelter knows the woman who owned Lolly, and the woman wants to see her again. I told my supervisor I'd bring pictures and think about the visit. I don't know about it at all. I wonder if it will be good for Lolly or tramatic. I wonder if that woman is going to try to take her from me? I'm scared :( :( :( :( :(

[Logan]

Pictures, Aly......and maybe you could email her to tell her about Lolly, but this is like adopting a child to me. Once its done, its done, and its better for everyone involved, especially you and Lolly, not to go there anymore.

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

Lolly doesn't need to see this person. If it doesn't frighten her, it will, at the very least, confuse her. This woman gave up her rights to Lolly. I agree with Logan - you 'adopted' Lolly, case closed.
This woman can deal with a few pictures but doesn't really need anything else.

Lolly is your baby girl now - don't let anyone pressure you into thinking this woman has any right to her.

[RachelJ]

I agree with Logan. In no way is seeing this woman going to be "good for Lolly". Based on what you said, this woman abandoned her furkids with an abuser, to say nothing of what she allowed during the time they were living together. I don't think you owe this person anything except to say that Lolly is thriving under your care. Your supervisor knows you, so she can tell her that herself. I know I am sounding harsh, but that is just how this situation strikes me.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Aly, I agree with everybody, don't get involved in this situation, Lolly is your baby now, the lady should have thought about her dogs a long time ago. Pictures only.
Jackie

[sammi]

I agree don't let her visit with Lolly. I think a couple of pictures would be fine (can your superv. be the go between?) She might be feeling guilty and by word of mouth and a picture she will see how well Lolly is loved. Don't get involved anymore than that.

[Rottie]

I would not take Lolly to see this woman. You don't know what could happen, she could try to take Lolly back, or it could be really confusing or traumatic for Lolly. I would show the woman a few pictures, and tell her that Lolly is adjusting fine and is a wonderful little dog. And that's it!

[lizbud]

Aly,
What a strange situation to be put into...
Your idea of offering a few pictures,but
only thinking about a visit is very sensible.
Most abusers use abuse, or threats of abuse
of family pets ,to cower everyone else in the
family.This woman might have lived thru her
own 'private hell' for those 5 years.
If your supervisor knows her, ask what kind
of person they think she is.
Lolly is your baby now,and this woman(good or
bad) has no rights to her at all. Liz

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[ October 31, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[Angels3]

I agree with Logan & everyone else. who've given really good advice. The past should be kept as distant as possible in this case.

[DNova]

Ditto!

[mugsy]

My opinion is that if the woman sat back and allowed the abuse to happen,she has NO rights to see, hear about, or see pictures of, or anything. She is no better than the abuser if she allowed it to happen. Enablers are no better than the guilty party. Ok, I'm off my soap box now. Sorry if I came on too strong. I just spouted off my opinion, but you need to do what you feel is right, you're the one in the situtation, not me.

[sammi]

I feel about the same as Lizbud that maybe this women had her own abuse and had no way to help the dog or dogs. I have never been in that situation but if that was the case she would know that Lolly is safe at last. This was brought up before about dumping pets and I remembered that someone said that sometimes the person who is being abused can only protect the pets by getting them out of the house anyway they can. But I wouldn't let her she Lolly in person.

[kobieeli]

Everyone appears to be unanimous on this one, but I still feel the urge to chime in... PICTURES ONLY! What is this lady thinking? It's too late to try to rebond with Lolly if she's trying to assuage her own guilt. She needs to move on.

[delidog]

i agree with everybody...pics only...however...as i too work at a shelter...let the shelter be the moderator!!! do not send anything with your name and address on it or phone num....you want no ramifications....i have seen this in the past...put some photos in an envelope with no return address or the shelters' address...don't put any comments...mail from the shelter or another location so that your post mark is not on it....she has no rights to lolly!!!!! and you do not want her finding her!!!!!!!you love your baby lolly...she did not!!!! the deli dog :eek: :mad:

[Pam]

Aly I agree with everyone here. Pictures and nothing more and let the shelter handle it. Anything more would just confuse Lolly and maybe even set her back. Like Delidog said don't let your name, address or phone number be given out under any circumstances. Lolly is happy and loved now and she deserves to be able to hold onto her happiness.

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

I agree that pictures are the only thing you should let her have. Ask to be left anonymous. No address, no name, no phone numbers. Make sure the pictures you send do not have any distinct objects that could identify your home (like car license paltes, mailbox number, apartment complex name, etc..)

Seeing this woman is not going to be good for Lolly. It doesn't matter whether or not that woman abused her or not, she was there when Lolly was abused. It doesnt matter whether or not the lady was living in a hell of her own and really couldnt do anything to help her. Lolly doesnt know that.

Good luck in your decision.

[ilovehounds]

Aly from personal experience I wouldn't let her see Lolly.

A dog doesn't forget and seeing this women again could be very scary and stressfull for her.

The man I took Copper from came to our house one day (he phoned wanting some of my ducks,didn't tell me he was the man I got Copper from, he didn't get my ducks either) and as soon as he stepped foot in our yard Copper went nuts, howling and growling, showing his teeth. Then he went running to the barn and didn't come back out untill 3 hours after the man had left. When he did come out he acted scared and nervous.

I would just show her pics. She had her chance to love Lolly and didn't take it, I'd say it's to late now.

[AdoreMyDogs]

Aly, I agree with everyone here 100% That woman may have loved Lolly but she has no right whatsoever to ever see her again. In my opinin, she does not deserve to since she let her get abused all those years and didn't put a stop to it. Becides it will probablly confuse Lolly, as even though Lolly was abused, I am sure she will still love that woman, and it may be hard for Lolly to see her past family again. Pictures are good, email is good, but please don't feel that you need to let Lolly associate with that woman again. That just dosen't sound healthy to me. I do understand your mixed feelings though. It is a very confusing situation to be in.

[Stenograsaurus]

Oh, Aly, what a position to be put in. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I think that sending a few pictures and maybe a letter explaining what a great life Lolly has now would be enough to satisify the curiosity of the previous "owner". I, fortunately, have never had to live in a situation where I was in fear of an abuser. I have no idea what kind of life the previous owner had lived or what she was put through by the hands of her abuser. I do know that abusers will do anything they can to hurt you and that includes hurting things that you love and things that mean the most to you. I can't judge her over abandoning the dogs because I don't know her situation. Maybe she only had the opportunity to save herself. Maybe she was planning on going back and saving the dogs when she got strong enough. (Can you tell I try to find the good in everything?) Maybe talk to your supervisor and see if she can answer some questions for you. I would give the stuff to the supervisor to pass it along if you are comfortable with that. Again, Lolly is yours!!! The lady has no rights to her. She gave them up, regardless of the circumstances behind it. I would explain to the previous owner that you think it would be too confusing for Lolly right now and you'd let her know when you felt Lolly was strong enough (emotionally) to handle a visit. That leaves it completely up to you. This does not mean you have to let a visit happen. You might decide that Lolly is never strong enough. If she keeps hassling you through your supervisor, remind her that you said you would inform her when Lolly is ready. Stay strong, here. I know you can. We're all behind you.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Stenograsaurus ]

[Dixieland Dancer]

ALY, I guess me and Mugsy are in a boat all of our own. NO PICTURES, NO EMAIL, NO CONTACT WHATSOEVER! Not only is this best for Lolly and you but it is actually best for the woman too! She needs to forget YOUR precious Lolly and get on with her life without pictures or anything.

As for being scared, you have legal possession of the dog. And from what I know possession in 9/10ths of the law. Unless the dog was stolen from her and she has permanent identification on Lolly (ie: microchip or tattoo) she has no claim.

If you need to do anything (and this is only to make you feel better, not the woman) then tell the shelter supervisor to tell the women that the dog is doing good in a loving home and that the home wishes no contact. It will be easier on you too in the long run!

I am sorry you have to deal with this. You don't deserve it. You have done nothing but open your loving heart to give a needed dog a happy and loving home. Give Lolly an extra few hugs to make you feel better!

[RachelJ]

Dixie, read my post again, I think you can count me in with you and Mugsy. I really don't think this is being mean either. Most people who give up a dog, don't have the advantage of knowing the dog is loved and cared for and thriving under that care. Period. Aly, I'm somewhat surprised your supervisor would even suggest you consider this option.

[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[Dixieland Dancer]

Rachel, Thanks for setting me straight on your post, It's nice to have you in my boat too! I am also shocked that the supervisor is suggesting this. I would not give this woman a second of the day or a second thought! Lolly has no ties with her now and that's the way it should stay! And I wouldn't feel bad or like I was being mean about it either. I would look at it as protecting my heart and my baby. After all you opened your heart to give Lolly a new and wonderful home and that's more than Lolly got in the old home! YOU OWE HER NOTHING!!!!!

[Albea]

Aly:
I agree with everybody's advice and have one more thing to say. Don't let anybody, at the shelter or the woman who gave up Lolly, send you on a "guilt trip." Because you are such a nice and caring person, you may feel sorry for that person. But you don't have anything to feel guilty about if you refuse any contact with the former owner. You gave the pup a loving home, now she is your baby and you would'n want anything to stress her and bring back bad memories.
Let us know how you solved this problem.

[shais_mom]

At first I was thinking let her see pics, but the more I think about it I don't think that is a good idea either.
Lolly definatley does not need to see her at all. I don't necessarily agree with that this lady didn't love her, I just think she was in a rock and a hard place and couldn't do anything about it, kinda like my Kylie's situation, but Kylie sees her old mamma occassionally, with no ill effects, but she does fear the boyfriend when he came over once when I was on vacation and Jodi fed her for me. But Kylie wasn't traumatized like Lolly was. I have never been in an abusive situation either so I can' speak for Lolly's former owner.
It would be different I think if she wasn't abused and had to give her up b/c of an illness or something, but I agree don't let her see her. Tell your supervisor its not a good idea and she should know better(don't tell her that!!) :eek:
My sister's dog, Scooby Doo, is just over 2 1/2, she got him in June before I got Shaianne and he was 6 mos old. To this day he still submissive pees, is absolutely TERRIFIED of my dad, and my dad has never done anything to him, he was scared of him the first day he saw him. Otherwise, he loves people men and women and children alike, except my dad. When my dad walks into the room you can see the look on his face saying "Where do I go" It was especially challenging this past weekend when my parents watched my nephews and Scoony and Scooby peed 7times on my mom's carpet. Now remember my mother, God love her, doesn't get excited about having a dog in the house, she didn't mind Shai b/c she knew her manners and instintively knew what I wanted. She also has said that my new puppy isn't allowed on her carpet until she is potty trained. Which is fine its her carpet!! My poor mom was sooooooo stressed out. I told her the next time they go away which is like once a year, I said I would take Scooby to my house and my mom said "No, this is the least I can do, I don't like it, but I can deal with it."
I tried to argue but she wouldn't have it.
She didn't say anything to my sis about his accidents, but I think she should have b/c he could have an infection or something.
I also think that this poor dog had the h*ll beat out of him as a puppy which is why is soooo afraid of my dad and the whole peeing thing. My nickname for the poor thing is the Peeing Machine!!
Well I digress, I don't think that Lolly should see her former owner!!! She is in the best situation now and is healing very slowing and you don't want any regressions!!!
Keep us posted!

[aly]

THANK YOU so much everyone. You guys helped me see the situation a lot more clearly. My emotions were clouding my view so I wanted to know what you all thought about it.

The thing that was getting me was I was afraid I was jumping to conclusions about the woman. I kept thinking what if she was abused even more than the dogs and what if she tried to save the dogs? Well, it went on for 5+ years (Lolly's mom is 7, bet it went on for 7 years or more) and if she couldn't notice or help the dogs' abuse in that time, she must not have really tried. If I was being abused, I would get the animals out after the first incident.

Well I decided to ask my supervisor a few questions about the woman. Although she doesn't know her TOO well I think (its her chiropractor's secretary). I'm going to tell her to tell the woman that Lolly is doing excellent and recovering from her trauma beautifully. I will hold off on the pictures and definately not allow a visit.

Thanks guys, I knew I could count on you all :)

[Golden Smiles]

:mad: :mad: I wouldn't let her see that little girl for ANYTHING!!!! She's lucky you'll let her see pix!! I think it would be terrible for Lolly to have to even smell her!!!

[Stenograsaurus]

Aly, I knew you'd come up with what felt right for you. Don't let anyone pressure you into doing anything you're not comfortable doing. I think you came up with an excellent solution. Hopefully the former "owner" will accept that and go on with her life and you guys can go on with yours.

[purrley]

Aly - I posted in late on this topic and you've probably already made your decision and I hope it's like everyone seems to agree that your Lolly should not have any contact with this lady. This lady needs to just move on - the dog is in wonderful hands - I don't even think she needs to see pictures. I'm sure you've made the right decision. I don't understand why this lady wants to make things harder on herself anyway.

[sammi]

Are me and Lizbud the only ones who think a picture MIGHT be ok? You guys are kinda hard nosed about this. (take this in good humor) I would not want you in the jury box if I was up on the stand!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[ramanth]

I'm sort of mixed on a pic or not. But I would definately not let the woman see Lolly in person. That would be too much for the poor dear.

I'm just shocked the supervisor had the gall to ask you if the woman could see Lolly. Did he not know your poor babies background!?!? She should of known better and just told the woman that Lolly is fine and happy in her new home.

That's all the woman needs to know.

Sorta on subject..... a few days after I adopted Kia, I was at the park with my parents and my baby girl. Someone walked by and asked. "Is that Kia!?" My heart leapt in shock. For a moment my mother thought it was the previous owners. Turns out it was a woman who worked at the shelter where I adopted her from.

For a moment I thought the woman was going to demand I give her dog back. :(

~Kimmy

[Dixieland Dancer]

Sammi,
I think what Aly is trying to do is stay off the jury stand. When it comes to your babies you sometimes have to take a hard stand for their safety and yours. Emotional safety is just as important as physical safety. If the lady had Lolly for all those years prior to Aly getting her, she had plenty of opportunity to take pictures. She doesn't need any now!

What possible good would it do except to stir more emotions that just need to settle at the bottom of the river of life!

[RachelJ]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer:
<STRONG>What possible good would it do except to stir more emotions that just need to settle at the bottom of the river of life!</STRONG>

Excellently put.

[Corinna]

I came into this one late, have had this happen when I found a home for one dog I rescued. The 1st owner found out I had the dog(how I don't know) and was very mad that I had rehomed her. (the pound had called me to get the dog out of there cuz they couldn't really do any good for her.) But then this woman wanted to place demands on me to PROVE to Her that the dog was fine.(the animal control had removed this dog and27 others from her care while she was in a mental hospital yup no one caring for them.) I had to get a court order to keep her awy from my home, please do not even give pics, and don't let the go between give any clue where sweet Lolly is.
Sorry if this seems hard nosed but been there done that.Don't want anyone to go though it.
PS In my case the pound put out the word NOT to give this lady animals.

[yorkster]

Wow, I don't know how I missed this subject.

Aly, you don't owe this woman anything. For sure no visit, and I think pics are questionable too.
I think it is kind of strange (and suspicious) that this woman would want to visit- what purpose would it serve? It would not help HER with recovery, and only prolong it. She needs to move on and hopefully she has learned something from this situation. I don't want to sound cold about her situation, but I really believe that nobody would benefit from a meeting- especially her.
As far as you and Lolly are concerned, it would be better that there is no contact. All this woman needs to know is that Lolly is in a good and loving home, and that should be enough.
If she has the dogs best interest at heart, that should be enough!

I have a friend at work that rescued an abused/neglected Rottie, and after several months the former owners STOLE him back. I don't know the details of how they found the address, etc. So I think not even pics.......I hope your supervisor did not give any info out either- I would ask.
My friend DID get their dog back, and legally it was her dog, so I don't think you have a worry as far as whose dog it it is.

Good luck with whatever you do!

[lizbud]

sammi,
Hey don't feel bad, we were not the 'only'
people who thought a picture might be O.K.
The opinion to not let this person see
Lolly again was, as far as I can tell,
unanamious !!I still agree this would not be
good for Lolly or Aly.
Aly asked for honest advice and she sure got
that(and then some), and I believe Aly has
made the 'right' decision for Lolly and for
her own peace of mind...

[ktreva52]

Well, I don't agree that pictures would be even what this woman deserves. Your supervisor should tell the woman that the dog has been adopted and she cannot give out any further details. It is no longer her business how the dog is faring, since she couldn't get herself out of that situation, let alone the dogs. This sounds harsh, I know, but all of the above horror scenarios could happen. Besides, you don't know if the woman has returned to her abuser and is seeking the dog to put her back into the same situation.

The dog is adopted -- end of story!

[Karen]

In my heart, I think a picture of a happy, healthy Lolly, with a note that she is now in a good home, cared for, and overcoming her emotional problems would do no harm, and might do a world of good. We know so little of the emotional, physical and whole life experiences of this woman, frail and an "enabler" though she be,that may have really loved Lolly, even a little. What harm could it be to let at least that part of her mind be at ease? I know that if I ever had to give an animal away, or had one run away, I would forever after wonder about its well-being. A visit would be bad, but I think one picture and a brief note, passed anonymously on, might be a good thing, I honestly do.

[RachelJ]

Well, we know one thing for sure...you ask this bunch for advice and you open the flood gates. :D

[tatsxxx11]

Please don't be angry with me everyone. I really didn't want to pipe in....But, I agree with Karen Moderator 100%.

Lolly is now a happy, healthy, totally adored fur pup of one of the sweetest, most dedicated animal lovers on the planet. Lolly is Aly's and that is where she belongs, now and FOREVER. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT!!! But, having had a friend who was a victim of battering and abuse, I learned the horrors of spousal abuse and all of it's ramifications. I can only imagine the pain, should I forever become seperated from my girls, for reasons beyond my control, under some of the most terrifying circumstances a woman, her children and her furry ones, can be subjected to.

Being allowed to see her would be the worst thing for all concerned. Lolly would only be reminded of a very horrifying time in her life. But, a picture, a few words of consolation that Lolly is now TOTALLY loved, healthy and happy, thriving and loving life, all sent anonymously through a third person with NO indication of her whereabouts, would be what I would do. We can only speculate on the cruelty, the fear, this woman, her children, her animals were subjected to. Abuse of any kind, to human or animal, should never be tolerated. Aly, I wish you had NEVER been put in this position. Knowing you, knowing Lolly, perhaps your supervisor, without involving you, or even telling, could have reassured this woman (her acquaintance) that Lolly is being loved and cared for by the best person in the world. And now, it is time for her to move on with the job of healing herself and starting a healthy new life that might, someday, if the circumstances are right, include a dog. But, Lolly's safety and security is the most important consideration. I'm sure you will evalute all of the info. and will make the right decision for you and Lolly.

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: tatsxxx11 ]

[Logan]

Why in the world would anyone get made at you, Sandra, over a well spoken, thoughtful response?? We are all Aly and Lolly's friends first.....that's why everyone has jumped in to defend the two of them! But I think what you have offered up, as has Karen, is right on the money.

It looks like Aly has found her solution, which will protect Lolly, but also perhaps help this woman in some way. You never know what seeing a picture of Lolly and reading a few kind words might do for that lady. It would certainly brighten my day, it does, almost every single day, when I see Aly's signature on her posts! :D

[ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Logan ]

[TollSettFK]

Personally, I would get the ladies e-mail adress or adress and just send her pictures .

[crow_noir]

every situation is different. so i can't really give my oppinion on this one. but my own situation is clouding my thoughts for this one.

mine: i would hate to never be allowed to see Specs again for something i didn't do. i have been abused and so has she. i thankfully am out of that hell. however, i have no idea what she goes though now that i am gone. i know it could be worse though. and i have not done anything much to try to get her out of there. mostly because she never was legally mine, and two, i fear i'd never see her again. would you condem me the same way for not doing something? i interfeared when i had to, but it's scary when you are nothing, no missle, no weight, standing up to someone twice your weight, and total leagal controll over you. no other place to retreat to. i wish i could do more for her, but i can't.