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Thread: California AB1634 Mandatory Spay/Neuter (MSN)

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by caseysmom
    I think its about time.
    Even though the premise behind MSN is not proven to work?

    And at four months, treating every breed of dog exactly the same way as a kitten?

    In 2006, Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania presented material on "Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs". This is part of a worldwide symposium of Animal professionals who have collected data on thousands of animals.

    Their very interesting slide show is available to the public in a PDF document.
    http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

    I am taking the liberty of posting some images here. I will however remove the images if asked. Everyone can go to the source and get the full document from above.













    Do go check it out
    http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

    I'm not advocating to stop spay and neuter, I am however advocating that the decision to spay or neuter a pet that is not from a shelter be the choice of the owner and the veterinarian to make for themselves.

    The government should not be involved with forcing everyone to comply with policy that is not based on fact. As you can see above, this is NOT about HEALTHY PETS.

    If I am asked to remove the slides, I will do so. There are many more, and more detail than I can put here.

    But the main document is at this site which also has quite a bit of other animal health info in relation population control issues.
    http://www.acc-d.org/

    Once again, public policy should be based on facts. MSN has proven that it doesn't work. And from the facts above, it's quite clear that there is a lot of outdated information floating around. Some of the problem sets above are actually reasons that animals are surrendered to the shelters.
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  2. #17
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    I for one am VERY glad you posted these slides! There are other effects of early age altering that need to be considered.

    For example, sex hormones play a role in the closing of the growth plates, so animals altered before they are done growing have a slightly different conformation, and some evidence suggests that athletic animals altered early run a higher risk of injury because of this conformation.

    FORCING someone who wants to have a canine athlete or a working dog to put their animal at higher risk for something like and ACL injury is inhumane IMO.

    Thank you Wolf_Q!

  3. #18
    This should be a cautionary tale for ANYONE who says in response to a problem "Gee, I wish the Government would do something about that".
    The one eyed man in the kingdom of the blind wasn't king, he was stoned for seeing light.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyBogart
    I for one am VERY glad you posted these slides! There are other effects of early age altering that need to be considered.
    Thanks Cathy. We'll see how long I can leave them up.

    Here's a fact- Due to the forced nature of MSN, some canvassing of insurance companies for Veterinarians has taken place informally. It appears that malpractice coverage is going to go up -- to cover anticipated problems.

    This will at the very least, indirectly affect free and discount neuter services.

    The whole picture must to be taken into account.

    One of my favorite web pages right now is http://saveourdogs.net/
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  5. #20
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    Easy link to this specific posting for forwarding use

    I now have official permission from the lead supervisor and scientist to use these captured images from the symposium slide show for this and multitude educational efforts. I will continue to ask people to go to the source to get original documents, as well.
    http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf

    Edited to provide easy link to this specific posting number for other lobbying efforts and forwarding.
    ------------------- 8< ------ cut here ------ 8< -------------------

    From: James Serpell <[email protected]>
    Subject: Re: ATTN: Dr. James Serpell - Mandatory Spay Neuter as Law in
    California?
    Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:46:28 -0400

    Dear Janice,

    You are welcome to use the ACC&D presentation for your lobbying efforts.

    The legislation appears to be ill-considered and premature considering
    how little we know about the long-term impact of pediatric spay/neuter
    on the health and behavior of dogs and cats. At 4 months of age, dogs
    and cats are also too immature for us to be able to predict reliably
    their adult temperament and physical soundness. The legislation as
    written could therefore have a significantly adverse effect on our
    future ability to select the best animals for breeding purposes.

    You may quote me, if you like.

    Kind regards,

    James A. Serpell, PhD
    Marie A. Moore Professor of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare,
    Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society,
    Department of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine,
    University of Pennsylvania.


    ------------------- 8< ------ cut here ------ 8< -------------------

    If you have already studied these images, scroll below for further information......

    Quote Originally Posted by SemaviLady
    In 2006, Deborah L. Duffy, Ph.D., and James A. Serpell, Ph.D., Center for the Interaction of Animals and Society, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania presented material on "Non-reproductive Effects of Spaying and Neutering on Behavior in Dogs". This is part of a worldwide symposium of Animal professionals who have collected data on thousands of animals.

    Their very interesting slide show is available to the public in a PDF document.
    http://www.acc-d.org/2006%20Symposiu...ession%20I.pdf











    Additionally a significant collection of abstracts on spay/neuter and other important bill related issues can be found at http://www.ab1634.com/

    It has now been shown without dispute that there is a need to research this matter more thoroughly because the outcome of the studies have not been promising in the support of pediatric S/N.

    Realize that sensitized/reactive temperaments are among the things documented to be significantly increased with neuters. This involves pet animals that are part of children's lives throughout the STATE.

    Furthermore, the bill endorses bulk production of animals for profit but seeks to control everyone else.

    My initial letter of inquiry to Dr. Serpell included the following (in part):

    The language of the law itself doesn't actually address the fact that there are no dogs at 4 months of age that qualify for the automatic higher permit fees and the only exemptions provided are continual 75 day renewals in coordination with a veterinarian up through the time that the dog can actually qualify for phenotype testing (2 years and more) such as orthopedic soundness (hips, elbows, shoulders, etc) correct character, working ethic, lack of sound and touch sensitivity (storms), etc. Dogs that are shown in conformation can only go to a show at 6 months, working dogs require more time for structural maturity, so entire litters of 5 to 15 puppies would be necessitate decision making at a point where all these things cannot be determined. The administrative issues will include vets and owners individually applying for repeated extensions of permit fees. This will include dogs used in police training, search and rescue, considerable impact.

    Genetic diversity in purebreds will be affected since more decisions will be forced when an untested working dog is merely four months or less in age. The average COI's within breeds will be affected and protector alleles could further be lost.

    <--snippage: bill information detail omitted-->

    I have contacted local vets and apparently the California Veterinary Medical Association has filed an opinion in favor of the bill despite vets in the trenches feeling differently on the matter, and with malpractice insurance companies considering that state mandated neuter of pediatric animals will have far reaching implications. So I understand that they are not of one mind.

    Basically, 90% of owned dogs in the state of California, never become part of the shelter overcrowding problem. The so-called overpopulation problem tends to be due to localized issues, since the entire state of Califonia has had significant drop in shelter statistics since 1970.

    Statistics are available here:
    http://www.doggonecalifornia.org/

    I'm concerned about individual health and genetic soundness.

    Thanks for your attention to this matter.

    Go here to get reader friendly information on how to contact the Assembly on this bill. Faxes appear the be the best way to ensure that your position on the bill is counted.

    Here is a direct link to the bill information itself.

    Related, but not in California, I have been reading that the implementation of MSN in Albuquerque is proving to be a disaster.

    MSN does NOT work:
    http://network.bestfriends.org/anima...news/4108.html
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  6. #21
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    California Healthy Pets Act *NOT!*

    I had a little time last night to do some image captures from a couple more studies (studies that can be downloaded free from the links below), so that those that are interested can review these.

    These studies are older than the one from which images I posted earlier in this thread. They are 1996 and 2002. based on publishing date (it can take a while to get papers published after the study is actually complete).

    One scientist in the 1996 paper and the newer one previously referred (2006) is James A Serpell, PhD. who has work that has been published (2 dozen or more). This is inclusive of many papers in peer reviewed journals, some dated from the late 1980's up to the current time.

    Info about James A. Serpell Ph.D.
    Section Chief, Behavior and Human-Animal Interactions
    Professor of Humane Ethics and Animal Welfare
    Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society
    Department of Clinical Studies -Philadelphia
    School of Veterinary Medicine
    University of Pennsylvania

    That is considerably more authority on the subject than a general practice vet, or anyone working for a spay clinic, to say little of an Animal Rights fanatic , . . . or absolutely ANY of the following people behind AB 1634 "California Healthy Pets Act"

    Assembly Member Levine
    (Principal coauthor: Senator Padilla)
    (Coauthor: Assembly Member Nava)

    ...to say little of AB 1634 Campaign Director Judie Mancuso who is now on record saying that the opposition is "Spreading the word that [...] neuter and that spaying at 4 months causes medical issues (they really are desperate)."

    Whatever her intent in her comment, this just goes to show that much of the information circulating about spay and neutering IS out of date and HAS been selectively acknowledged.

    What do you think of selective acknowledgement? If if there are peer reviewed studies that have shown that a prescription drug seems to be causing serious problems to some people in the population, would you like to know what those problems are before someone you care for is put at risk? Here's one report about Zelnorm being taken off the market.

    Apparently with the recent Melamine issues, some chose to ignore patterns that were becoming evident. So it is with spay and neuter.


    How SELECTIVE do YOU as a pet owner want to be?

    The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) on its website, says "Spaying or Neutering Is Good for You" (seriously, that's what it says!) and that "Spaying and neutering makes pets better, more affectionate companions.".
    (source: http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_care/wh..._your_pet.html)

    Better? Better than what?

    "Stepford Pets" anyone?


    Okay, two studies:
    Vol. 11, 14341440, November 2002 Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention
    Endogenous Gonadal Hormone Exposure and Bone Sarcoma Risk
    Dawn M. Cooley, Benjamin C. Beranek, Deborah L. Schlittler, Nita W. Glickman,
    Lawrence T. Glickman, and David J. Waters

    Male and female [Rottweiler] dogs that underwent gonadectomy before 1 year of age had an approximate one in four lifetime risk for bone sarcoma and were significantly more likely to develop bone sarcoma than dogs that were sexually intact.

    You can download this study from my website. (PDF 60 KB)
    http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/cancer-neuter.pdf

    Another study.
    A study which is actually ten years old (has Dr. Serpell as one of the scientists) found a significant relationship between neutering and aggression as far back as 1996.
    Podberscek, A.L. & Serpell, J.A.
    The English Cocker Spaniel: preliminary findings on aggressive behaviour. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 47: 75-89, 1996.

    Some images here but you can download the study here. (PDF images 718 KB)



    ..... images in the PDF break up the paragraphs after this. These image files can be big for a dialup, so download the PDF for the full discussion



    Young children and potentially REACTIVE pets.
    Hrm... could it be that some of these neutered females are in the shelter for this VERY reason?

    Should the STATE endorse this for EVERY one? Think of the legal implications...


    Upon reading the quoted letter below, I inquired of Professor Serpell about the studies mentioned below because these were not published studies, unlike above. I also asked Laura about the qualifications of the person she mentioned below (I had no idea and was skeptical ). These studies are unpublished but the information has been used in policy making in the management of several associations where service dogs are trained for the disabled. I was surprised when Professor Serpell acknowledged these studies, saying that his organization works closely with Canine Companions for Independence (CCI) on a number of projects and that he was indeed aware of these findings mentioned below. He added that these Service Dog studies did not contribute in any way to the published 2006 study which I previously cited here.

    Apparently SD organizations have known about the problems of early spay and neuter for the past decade.

    He also said, "The legislation appears to be ill-considered and premature considering how little we know about the long-term impact of pediatric spay/neuter on the health and behavior of dogs and cats. At 4 months of age, dogs and cats are also too immature for us to be able to predict reliably their adult temperament and physical soundness. The legislation as written could therefore have a significantly adverse effect on our future ability to select the best animals for breeding purposes."

    Keeping the above in mind-
    Laura Sanborn of saveourdogs.net wrote that Representatives of the two largest law enforcement K9 associations in California, along with a representative of the organization that represents 10+ guide/service/hearing dog organizations in California, made the rounds in the Capital last week.

    This is some of the information she shared on that experience.

    Yesterday I made the rounds at the California state capital to visit the offices of the Assembly Business & Professions Committee members to discuss AB 1634. I was accompanied by two police officers who discussed the harmful impacts AB 1634 would have on law enforcement. Also with us was the person in charge of the breeding and training program at Canine Companions for Independence (CCI), who discussed how AB 1634 would harm programs that assist blind and disabled Californians. He also represented Assistance Dogs International, Inc., an umbrella organization over many guide/service/hearing dog organizations.

    Similar to guide dog programs, CCI breeds and trains dogs to assist disabled people. They use Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, and Golden/Labrador mixes. CCI breeds over 600 dogs a year.

    My jaw nearly hit the floor when the CCI representative started describing research that CCI did in the early 1990s to understand spay/neuter impacts. CCI wanted to know if early s/n (less than 6 months of age) would yield results at least as good as their traditional spay/neuter age, which is usually over 12 months of age (typical is 17 months of age). So CCI did a controlled prospective research study... the gold standard of research to understand cause-and-effect.

    CCI assigned half the pups in a number of litters to be s/n early, while the remaining pups in these litters were s/n at their traditional age. The results were very unexpected. The early-age spayed females were significantly more dog aggressive than the traditional-age spayed females. Urinary incontinence was a much bigger problem in the early-age spayed females compared to the traditional-age spayed females. The early-age neutered males were more fearful than the traditional-age neutered males. The bottom line is that the early-age spay/neuter dogs had a significantly higher failure rate in CCI's program... a smaller percentage of them grew up to be working dogs. As a result, CCI will not spay/neuter dogs before 6 months of age, and usually wait until dogs are more than 12 months old to spay/neuter. The CCI rep said this research has been repeated by others. I believe one of them may be Guide Dogs for the Blind, as I was told by one of their trainers that they recently stopped doing early spay/neuter owing to results they were seeing that they don't like.

    Long before I ever heard about mandatory spay/neuter laws, I spent 6 years poring over the veterinary medical research literature trying without success to find research of this type. Here I was sitting in the office of a state Assembly member, listening to a scientist describe the work that his group did. It has not been published anywhere. Needless to say, I spent the rest of the day bugging him to get this published. This has implications far beyond AB 1634 and guide/assistance dogs. It has implications for the health and well being of most dogs. There are very few controlled prospective research studies of dogs in veterinary medicine examining spay/neuter impacts. They are too costly for almost all researchers to do. Guide & assistance dog programs may be in a unique position to do these kind of studies, as they breed many dogs and they maintain a degree of control over their dogs that is beyond what other breeders can do.

    CCI's work is summarized in their letter to the California State Assembly opposing AB 1634. Quoting from CCI's letter:

    Calling AB 1634 the 'California Healthy Pets Act' is a misnomer Surgical sterilization of preadult dogs has been shown to increase the risk for several significant behavioral and health problems. CCI did a study on the effects of prepubertal gonadectomy (i.e., sterilization) in 1990, and found significant increases in failure rates due to both medical and behavioral reasons in those dogs that had been sterilized early. This research has been repeated elsewhere with the same results. Increased incidence of health problems such as urinary incontinence, osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, obesity and orthopedic problems as well as behavioral problems such as environmental fear and interdog aggression are strong arguments against prepubertal sterilization for any dog, but especially those destined for a working role.

    http://saveourdogs.net/documents/cciposition.pdf

    Laura Sanborn
    These studies are publically available and have not been hidden from those who are interesting in sourcing issues. Many of you probably would not spread an Urban Legend without checking to see if it's listed on Snopes. And there are many who have pet animals who are skeptical about what passes as public information.

    Want more?
    You can see a catalog of related studies at the follow website: http://www.ab1634.com/

    • Orthopedic Considerations: abnormal bone growth due to lack of sex hormones; lower bone density due to lack of sex hormones; increase incidence of CCL rupture; increased incidence of hip dysplasia

    • Cancer Considerations: greater risk for hemangiosarcoma and bone cancers

    • Incontinence Considerations: in both sexes due to lack of sex hormones, estrogen and testosterone

    • Behavioral Considerations: increased incidence of fearful behavior and phobias; aggressive behavior

    • Metabolic Considerations: increased risk of hypothyroidism, acute fatal pancreatitis, diabetes, obesity...

    • Infectious Disease considerations: increased incidence of infectious disease

    • Surgical Considerations: surgical complications, anesthetic complications pediatrics and geriatrics, cardiac arrhythmias

    • Vaccine Considerations: increased incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines


    Yes, we all want fewer unwanted pets to be killed. But those of us who ARE keeping our pets would like to give our HEALTHY PETS optimal chances to have healthy lives.

    And... Mandatory Spay and Neuter does NOT work.
    http://network.bestfriends.org/anima...news/4108.html

    Here's a fact: L.A. has already implemented mandatory spay and neuter
    LAST YEAR (2006)--
    * Los Angeles (CA): Since the passage of the "spay or pay" law there has been a decline in dog licensing compliance. To counter this, the city hired additional officers and equipment, increasing the animal control budget 269% from $6.7 million to $18 million

    from Cardenas statement at a recent meeting to support AB 1634:
    "This year alone, the city's animal control has seen a 36% increase in services due to the increase in stranded animals."

    According to Ed Boks: "Over the past six years the City Council had to increase Animal Services' budget by 36%, with a 28% increase in the current fiscal year alone, even in the face of an extremely tight City budget."

    I can't knowingly support MSN as a STATEWIDE EXPERIMENT on baby animals, when it has already been proven, time and again to cause problems in animals whose history is recorded.

    Unlike the animals in the studies above... Neutered animals at shelters are not tracked for their lives. They also cannot be compared to unneutered siblings. Owners that have them and have some problems with them, cannot compare the issues that they have with their pets to the rest of the siblings. This is why MSN of shelter animals proves nothing about the effect it will have on the population as a whole.
    Last edited by SemaviLady; 04-23-2007 at 08:11 PM. Reason: changed CCI's letter from jpg to PDF
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  7. #22
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    Update:

    http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/160246.html

    I sure hope this passes.
    don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die....

    I have been frosted!

    Thanks Kfamr for the signature!


  8. #23
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    Could you please quote the article here for us please?

    Not everyone likes making accounts for news sites they rarely go to. :-/

    Or post the title of the article so that we can look it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by caseysmom
    Update:

    http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/160246.html

    I sure hope this passes.
    .

    Let nature guide your actions and you will never have to worry if you did the right thing. ~ crow_noir

    The pet world excels where the human world is lacking; sterilization and adoption. ~ crow_noir

    Please, if your dog is arthritic look into getting it Elk Velvet Antler. Look up my posts on it, PM me, or look it up on a search engine; but please if you love your dog and want it to live many more years consider this option. I've seen so many posts on here about dogs needlessly suffering. I can't make a new post about EVA every time so this plea is going here. EVA also helps with other ailments such as anemia.

  9. #24
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    SemaviLady: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this research and share it with us!! Would you mind if I shared this with a friend outside of the forum who is actively campaigning against this bill?

    Thank you Wolf_Q!

  10. #25
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    http://petoftheday.com/talk/showpost...15&postcount=3

    I'm guessing she won't mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by CathyBogart
    SemaviLady: Thank you so much for taking the time to do this research and share it with us!! Would you mind if I shared this with a friend outside of the forum who is actively campaigning against this bill?
    .

    Let nature guide your actions and you will never have to worry if you did the right thing. ~ crow_noir

    The pet world excels where the human world is lacking; sterilization and adoption. ~ crow_noir

    Please, if your dog is arthritic look into getting it Elk Velvet Antler. Look up my posts on it, PM me, or look it up on a search engine; but please if you love your dog and want it to live many more years consider this option. I've seen so many posts on here about dogs needlessly suffering. I can't make a new post about EVA every time so this plea is going here. EVA also helps with other ailments such as anemia.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by crow_noir
    Could you please quote the article here for us please?

    Not everyone likes making accounts for news sites they rarely go to. :-/

    Or post the title of the article so that we can look it up.
    Heya! I'm not Caseysmom but here ya go!

    This is the text of http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/160246.html :
    Pet neutering bill clears committee
    By Jim Sanders - Bee Capitol Bureau

    Published 11:23 am PDT Tuesday, April 24, 2007

    Legislation to require sterilization of nearly every dog and cat statewide in hopes of reducing the burden on animal shelters cleared its first legislative hurdle Tuesday.

    The measure, Assembly Bill 1634, is meant to curb the impact of irresponsible animal owners by making fewer dogs and cats capable of reproducing.

    The Assembly Business and Professions Committee passed AB 1634 on a party-line vote, 7-2, with Republicans opposed.

    Public testimony on the bill, taken two weeks ago, attracted hundreds of animal enthusiasts on both sides of the issue.

    Tuesday's session was limited to a statement by the author, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, D-Van Nuys, and to questions or comments by committee members.

    Levine said a statewide spay and neutering standard is needed because cities and counties have limited control over feral or unwanted pets.

    "Dogs and cats don't know where one city ends and the other begins," he said.

    Levine contends AB 1634 would crack down on irresponsible breeding that leads to about a million unwanted pets being born each year, costing shelters an estimated $250 million.

    Levine's bill would require that dogs and cats to be spayed or neutered by four months old. Violators could be subject to a $500 fine.

    Exceptions are provided for service animals - such as police, guide or signal dogs - and for animals excused by a letter from a veterinarian because of illness, age or poor health.

    The bill faces massive opposition, with critics claiming it would interfere with the rights of pet owners, pose a financial hardship on hobbyist breeders, be ignored by the worst offenders, and be largely unenforceable.

    Opponents note that animal shelter populations have fallen during the past 10 years, and that AB 1634 could backfire because some pet owners would abandon their animals rather than pay to sterilize them.

    After Tuesday's committee vote, critics claimed the bill's exemption for service dogs does not go far enough to ensure that an adequate supply of puppies will enter such programs in years to come.

    Assemblywoman Shirley Horton, a San Diego Republican who voted against AB 1634, said she does not think the Legislature should mandate spaying and neutering.

    "I really do think this is a local issue," she said.
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  12. #27
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    Thank you

    Quote Originally Posted by SemaviLady
    Heya! I'm not Caseysmom but here ya go!

    This is the text of http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/160246.html
    .

    Let nature guide your actions and you will never have to worry if you did the right thing. ~ crow_noir

    The pet world excels where the human world is lacking; sterilization and adoption. ~ crow_noir

    Please, if your dog is arthritic look into getting it Elk Velvet Antler. Look up my posts on it, PM me, or look it up on a search engine; but please if you love your dog and want it to live many more years consider this option. I've seen so many posts on here about dogs needlessly suffering. I can't make a new post about EVA every time so this plea is going here. EVA also helps with other ailments such as anemia.

  13. #28
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    The CVMA has withdrawn their support of AB1634

    The fight is not over yet, but great news today because CVMA has withdrawn support of the bill.

    Comments from many vets are online... here's one link
    http://naiaonline.org/issues/Hjerpe%20to%20CVMA.htm

    more-
    http://naiaonline.org/issues/opposeAB1634.htm

    As of 27 June, ALL Supporters of AB1634 are not only advocates for the previously exempt puppy mills which they supported earlier, but now, animals bred for research are exempt. (I'm a scientist, so I'm not stating that to start comments about animal testing but to show that reading the bill is an ongoing thing and that many "pro" bill arguments do not have awareness about what is ON the bill).

    The new rewrite also endorses breeding of immature dogs, because as written intact PERMITS cannot be renewed after one year . Many dogs are not adult until two or three years of age. Adult dogs of many breeds are normally given tests for such things as hip dysplasia, cardiomypathy and CERF before they are bred. More explained in link below.

    Still, the Bill pushers are taking advantage of "bleeding hearts" pet owners to capitalize on appeal to emotion and no facts are given about the dozens of problems in the "rest of the bill" some of which are mentioned above. They say such things as if you do not support this, you are Pro-Kill. Which is ludicrous but gullible people buy the guilt trip.

    I have an update on my blog and more details including hypothetical scenario on how this will affect farm dogs because I think given perspective, more people will understand why this is so wrong.
    http://www.cobankopegi.com/blog/2007...or-animal.html
    Semavi Lady Visit the blog!


  14. #29
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    We always had our dogs neutered but the vet wouldn't do that until they were at least a year old. They weren't fully developed until that age.

    If the government wants to be really useful, they should neuter rapists.
    No matter what anyone does, someone some where will be offended some how!!!!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    MY BLESSINGS:
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Grandma (RB), Chester, Angel, Chip

    Leonardo (RB), Luke (RB), Winnie, Chuck,

    Frankie

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    WHERE YOU ARE IS WHERE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE!!!
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  15. #30
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    You can take statistics and skew them anyway you want them skewed, so I don't buy into that. The new statistics say that what is posted isn't right, so, there you have it... I also have a friend in Boston who is a vet and actively advocates for juvenile spay/neuter.

    I am totally in favor of mandatory spay/neuter. I also think the AKC needs to pull itself out of the Dark Ages and not require the show dogs to be unaltered. They do enough to further puppy mills, they don't need to make more pups! I know the old story of "better the breed" but, that's just ridiculous...they don't bother to look at the millions of dogs and cats that are killed each year because no one wants them...most times their response is, "they're just mixed breeds, why are you worried, we're furthering the good of the breed." OY!


    Don't buy while shelter dogs die!!

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    Last Post: 05-25-2006, 12:26 PM
  4. look at my new spay/neuter tag!!!!!!
    By Sara luvs her Tinky in forum Cat General
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-23-2003, 11:39 AM
  5. look at my new spay/neuter tag!!!!!!
    By Sara luvs her Tinky in forum Pet General
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-23-2003, 10:02 AM

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