Bush Expresses "Deep Disgust"

[catcrazylady]

Could this get any more confusing?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Could this get any more confusing?

Wait until you see the statement.....

Hizbollah Slams Beheading of American as Un-Islamic
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group condemned Wednesday the beheading of an American hostage by Iraqi militants as an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam.
"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.

An Islamist Web site Tuesday carried a video clip of the execution of the man who identified himself as Nick Berg, with a statement saying a group linked to al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by U.S. troops.

Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."

The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."

Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut

---------------------

Until I got the caveat I was doing O.K.


It's a start in the right direction.....


We killed Berg ourselves.....

[popcornbird]

Here's what Nicholas Berg's family had to say about the inhumane and brutal killing of their son.......

In an interview with Boston radio station WBUR on Tuesday, Berg's father, Michael, said: "I still hold [Rumsfeld] responsible because if they had let him ago after a more reasonable amount of time or if they had given him access to lawyers we could have gotten him out of there before the hostilities escalated.

"That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the U.S. government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and released him when they were good and ready."

The interviewer asked, "Do you really blame Donald Rumsfeld for your son's death? And will you do anything in addition to that lawsuit you had filed?"

Michael Berg responded, "It goes further than Donald Rumsfeld. It's the whole Patriot Act, it's the whole feeling of this country that rights don't matter anymore because there are terrorists about.

"Well, in my opinion 'terrorist' is just another word like 'communist' or 'witch,' and it's a witch hunt, and this whole administration is just representing something that is not America, not the America I grew up in."

And here's what the United Arab Emirates had to say.........yes Richard. An Arab government condemned the killing.

The United Arab Emirates condemned the beheading as a "heinous crime against the civilized world."

"We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement.

"This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values."

And here's where I got these quotes from....... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...erg/index.html

What's interesting is all this time, not a single Arab nation said a word about the humiliation and abuse of the prisoners. The Western countries spoke against it, but the Arab countries didn't say a word. (I'm pointing this out at governments, not the people of the nations) I just found that kinda odd...........This whole thing is so confusing.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird



And here's what the United Arab Emirates had to say.........yes Richard. An Arab government condemned the killing.



What's interesting is all this time, not a single Arab nation said a word about the humiliation and abuse of the prisoners. The Western countries spoke against it, but the Arab countries didn't say a word. (I'm pointing this out at governments, not the people of the nations) I just found that kinda odd...........This whole thing is so confusing.

Thanks...

I appreciate the link.

[lizbud]

American Senators had to view the 'other' abuse photos
today. They were given two hours to review them, but they
remain in custody of the Pentagon Officials.


Senators See Abu Ghraib Prison Photos Held by Defense Department
Photos Show Snarling Dogs, Disrobed Iraqi Women
By William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 12, 2004; 5:42 PM


Members of Congress today expressed shock and disgust after viewing hundreds of photographs and video clips related to the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq, material that they said would be withheld from the public to protect the integrity of military trials and to avoid further inflaming America's enemies.



"What we saw is appalling," said Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), the Senate majority leader, after the Defense Department brought a computer disc containing the digital photos and video clips to Capitol Hill and displayed them on a computer in a closed-door meeting.

Frist said the photos were "consistent" with those that have been publicized to date. He added, "They go beyond that in many ways in terms of the various activities that are depicted, some totally unrelated to the Abu Ghraib prison or to the prisoners there."

He said, "Many of these photographs . . . appeared to relate to the abuse of prisoners. And then there were many, many others that were unrelated, but very, very appalling to all of the senators who saw them." He provided no further explanation.

"We left with a feeling of disappointment that the behavior of a few has reflected in a way that unfortunately hurts the reputation of the thousands, tens of thousands, 130,000 or more armed services personnel over there fighting for us each and every day," Frist said.

Frist and Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, declined to specify what the photos and videos showed, noting that they are part of active investigations.

Warner, whose committee is looking into the prisoner abuse scandal, said the material would remain under the control of the Pentagon, which is taking disciplinary action against some of the military police personnel who allegedly participated in the abuses late last year at the Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad.

Keeping the pictures under wraps "protects the integrity of the legal process" and avoids "inspiring the enemy" to harm members of the U.S.-led coalition or civilians in Iraq, Warner said. Revenge for the prison abuse was cited as a motive by the killers of Nicholas Berg, an American civilian who was beheaded in Iraq in a videotape that was posted on an Islamic militant group's Web site yesterday.

Warner indicated that the photos are likely to become public at some point, since no one knows how many copies have been made or who has them. But he said they would not be released by the executive branch or by Congress.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said, "What I have seen is disgusting and it is disappointing." He said there were "obvious examples in videos of inhumane treatment" and that, in one photo, he counted seven or eight troops in a hallway in which several Iraqi prisoners were tied together naked on the floor.

"Now, you can't tell me that all of this was going on with seven or eight Army privates," Nelson said. "And so the question is: How far up the chain of command did these orders [go], and where did that failure of the command and control occur? And we're going to get to the bottom of it."

Nelson said one poor-quality video appeared to show Iraqi prisoners about to be sodomized, although "it's not clear that the actual act of sodomy was being perpetrated on the videos that I've just seen."

He said he did not see any videos showing rape, either of a male or female prisoner. He said there were "attempted medical treatments in the prison" that he did not further describe. And he said he saw what appeared to be "some wounds from dogs."

"This is aberrant behavior, and we need to find out who the perpetrators were, where the command and control lapsed and bring these folks to justice," Nelson said.

In answer to a reporter's question, he said, "Some of the videos are more disturbing than the still photos that you've seen."

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said that in addition to photos that have already appeared in the press, "there were some other pictures . . . involving interaction between our own troops, but not involving any Iraqis."

Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said what most shocked her was a video clip of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall. She said another video showed a group of men masturbating.


© 2004 The Washington Post Company

[RICHARD]

Well some emm effer, like Harman, will let a photo or two slip in order the inflame the the voters.

She gets a new boss and all is well on the political scene...


I guarantee that some photos end up on the web and all the house 'intelligent' committee members will point fingers at each other....


Just by looking at what the 'D's said, as opposed to what the 'R's
are quoted as saying makes me believe that the writer has a little agenda going there.


I wonder if you have to be a "Master Debater" to hold a job like
Harman's?



BTW,

Matt Drudge, the speaker of truth and all that is right in the world- has posted some of the still pictures of the Berg murder.....

I won't post a link or even bother to describe how you can find them-No, I didn't look for the pics or see the video......


The 37 seconds that I spent last night listening to a man being murdered were enough for me..It literally made me sick to my stomach.


I really wish that someone would avenge my embarrassment the time I had that pair of women's panties on my head......


Oops!

I did it myself!!

[2kitties]

Boy did I screw up this morning. Me and my nosey self just HAD to see the pics. I didn't even see teh video or hear the sound but I saw the stillls. I saw the bloody, awful stilld and the head at various places and being help up.
Don't watch it, no matter how tempted you are. It will do no good to see that kind of thing. I won't post about my thoughts right now because it's safe to say they'd get me kicked off pet talk and probably made a military prisoner myself. I will say that there is no punishment enough for the people wearing the masks in the video.

[Logan]

Someone sent me the link. No thanks. I can't imagine watching and I know it had to be upsetting for you 2kitties. This is a horrible, horrible thing, no matter what the story is behind "why" it happened.

[jonza]

I really didn't want to get into a long discussion on this, but here are some comments on Sirrahbeds' questions:

Are you joking??
Does the tone of my post suggest that I was joking? Sorry if it appeared so.
No, I'm deadly serious.

I never said our country was brutally attached by *Iraq*. And as far as that last statement - if *Saddam* is not a terrorist, then what is he? We went in to attack anyone who supports, houses and furthers the causes or terrorists. So, are you also saying Iraq was terrorist free until we gave them some golden opportunity?? What the heck are you talking about???
No you didn't say your country was attacked by Iraq, but it seemed to be implied in your statement. Perhaps I should have said "It would also be untrue to say we are not fighting Iraq" … Saddam wasn't a terrorist in the Al Quaida manner, he was a brutal, ruthless dictator.

As promoted by the media. What did he do - finance and plan 9/11 so he could start a war?
There's no need for me to answer to that. Of course he didn't. If you can't understand what I'm trying to say, there's no point discussing it. We'll just have to wait for history to tell us the true story. What I meant was, that no matter what you or I believe, that is the situation as seen by an awful lot of people outside America. We mustn't forget that, no matter how big or powerful America is, they are only about 4% of the worlds' population.

would you explain one's logic in coming to such a conclusion? I am fascinated.
What I am implying here is that there have been so many lies and half truths spouted around by the administration that one can easily begin to speculate on all sorts of fantastic and ridiculous theories. I'm not what you would call a "conspiracy theorist", but there are just too many unanswered questions and doubtful decisions.

Court martials have already been carried out and they will continue. Hardly a reprimand. Military court martials are not going to be carried on Court TV but they are not pleasant or gentle.
Court martials are fine, and absolutely the minimum to be expected, but who will be chosen? Who is really responsible? Haven't the officers, politicians and military leaders got a responsibility too? Are we going to see them explain themselves in a court room? Or will it be just the common soldier taking the buck? Surely this behavior must have been condoned by their superiors. How far up the chain of command does this really go?

That is why I cannot understand why the peace loving Muslims are not speaking up and screaming with outrage over the Berg murder. Is he just another dead American and so does not matter? My ears are straining with hope to hear this!!
I agree, peace loving Muslims are not speaking up as they should. But at least some of their governments are beginning to make their voices heard at last. What a tragedy that it had to come to this first.

Dumped on by the media YES, but not let down by their leaders!! Even this horrible beheading is not going to cause our leadership to back down. America will not be bullied. How do you figure that they have been let down??
I figure that they have been let down by being sent out to war without the necessary preparation or understanding of the task, and with no plans (or at least very naive plans) for the rebuilding of Iraq afterwards.

… and there were a couple of other remarks that I unfortunately found slightly offensive, perhaps it's the tone of them, perhaps it's just me:

The same people who did 9/11 just beheaded a man in Iraq!! No connection???
As I said, you have been mislead (by politicians) to believe that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. I doubt very much that the animals that did this dreadful, inexcusable deed (the beheading), were in Iraq when war was declared.

but we made a mistake with the prisoner abuse - it is STILL a major media event because of POLITICIANS and THAT is who I blame for the disintegration of our war efforts!!
I don't quite understand that. Surely you can't believe that the media are to blame for the "mistake", and as far as politicians go, I think George Bush is one, though as such I don't have much respect for him (or many others for that matter).

… and your comment to Sara (Edwinas Secretary):
As far as saying President Bush would find a war to fight? Did he stage 9/11? YOU sound like a victim of the liberal press. Young people are giving their lives for YOU and I right now - and for our freedom to say the things we are saying.
I don't think that Sara seems like a "victim" of anything. I found the comment rather condescending and pretentious. The war that George Bush is fighting had nothing to do with 9/11 when it started.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Thank you John. You're right. Victim is not a word that describes me. Interesting to note...there is much evidence that the invasion of Iraq was planned BEFORE 9/11.

[jonza]

I didn't want to get hooked on this, I really ought to stop now and I definitely don't want to get into a slanging match, but I think the following article is relevant here:

Abuse of Iraqis 'well thought through'

NewScientist.com news service 16.58 10 May 04

The type of mistreatment Iraqi prisoners have suffered at the hands of US soldiers is unlikely to have occurred without the knowledge of higher authorities, say psychologists by contacted by New Scientist - adding support to allegations that the abuse may have been condoned by superiors.

The revelation that Iraqi prisoners were being degraded by their US captors at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad sparked worldwide disgust after graphic photos emerged in the media at the end of April. The images, which show naked male prisoners being humiliated, date back to 2003.

"A lot of people had to be in the know for this to happen. The very fact people felt confident enough to take pictures suggests that this was not something which was a secret," says Ian Robbins, a consultant clinical psychologist at the traumatic stress service at St George's Hospital in London, UK, who has treated both victims of torture and torturers.

In fact, both the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and Amnesty International raised the alleged abuse of prisoners with US authorities many months ago. The ICRC's findings from visits to 14 Iraqi detention centres between March and October 2003 prompted "repeated requests to the coalition authorities that they take corrective action".

A leaked ICRC report reveals how an intelligence officer in charge at Abu Ghraib had told the Red Cross when asked about captives being imprisoned in darkness for days that it was "part of the process".

"The US administration has shown a consistent disregard for the Geneva Conventions and basic principles of law, human rights and decency," says Irene Khan, Amnesty International's secretary general. "This has created a climate in which US soldiers feel they can dehumanise and degrade prisoners with impunity."

Rules and regulations
"In all organisations, all teams, troops and people will replicate in some way the personality of the number one person in charge - whether it's the President, down to the general, down to the head of the jail," says Simon Meyerson, director of the Institute of Psychology in London. "If you know there's going to be trouble, you won't do it."

Stansfield Turner, former head of the US Central Intelligence Agency, says the abuse "indicates the Bush administration's indifference to laws and rules and regulations".

"If it was just the actions of a few aberrant people, they would either have to believe their superiors condoned what they did, or that they could get away with it because of lack of adequate supervision," he told the BBC.

He says the blame must be placed high. "In this case I think at least a three or four star general should be fired - and fired immediately."

Hooded and cuffed
Sabrina Harman, a reservist implicated in abusing prisoners, has defended her actions in emails to the Washington Post saying she was acting on orders. She was photographed grinning next to a pile of naked, bound prisoners.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed. The job of the MP [military police] was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk," she wrote.

Robbins told New Scientist: "It looks to me that it was a well thought through process." He says acts of ill-treatment by rogue operatives acting alone are more likely to be routine low-grade violence - "the odd slapping" - and neglect, such as withholding food or access to toilets.

He also points out that the methods of humiliation depicted in the images would be particularly offensive to Arab men. "If you really wanted to humiliate an Arab man, you would strip him, have a woman present, and then have a woman degrade him."

One recent image shows a woman holding a dog lead attached to the neck of a naked Iraqi man. Photographing such events is likely to compound the shame by placing it on record.

Robbins believes the abuses revealed so far could have been stopped "extremely easily" by senior officers.

Shaoni Bhattacharya

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I won't post about my thoughts right now because it's safe to say they'd get me kicked off pet talk and probably made a military prisoner myself. I will say that there is no punishment enough for the people wearing the masks in the video.

Don't worry, Pet Talk Prison ain't a bad place....

They have doggies and kitties there!!!

There is a reason that those punks hid their faces...One, to make believe that alwarahiribeennicetoknowyou joker was the one that
hacked off Berg's head. Two, knowing the the US will find them if they were 'brave' enough to show their faces-I wonder what the Islamic faction would do to them if they found out what they were doing to their religion.

Taking some American off the streets of Iraq is really brave....The poor dude wasn't even a soldier.

2K,
I admire you, you are far braver than I. I have seen some gruesome stuff, gunshot wounds, broken people, the Faces of Death movies that were popular once upon a time....

Logan,

Don't bother.
Unless you feel like burdening your heart and clouding your head with pure evil. I would really like to know who, that has posted, on the thread has heard or seen the tape....

Listening was bad enough, I can image the picture we just as bad.

ES,

Did you see Nova last night....lololol,

Yep that invasion was planned....the war games that the US engaged in (2002) were targeted against a Mid East country.............Israel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...778139,00.html

Iraq and Israel both start with the letter "I",
I can see the parallels.

The retired American general, playing Israel, that ran the exercise KICKED the AMFOR's rear end...

And finally,


The Iraqi soccer team qualified for the Olympics..

Totally cool.


Jonza,

What happened? Is it still going on or are we rehashing history???

I love it when people twist the knife.
It really doesn't hurt as much as the initial
thrust.

[jonza]

Originally posted by RICHARD
What happened? Is it still going on or are we rehashing history???

I love it when people twist the knife.
It really doesn't hurt as much as the initial
thrust.

Yes, I suppose we are rehashing history in a way. "My country" (England) was pretty good at this sort of thing when they still had an Empire. It's all their fault really, they are the ones who created Iraq and Palestine without regard for the people and their culture.
Just read stories like the history of General Gordon in the Sudan in 1884. There are some interesting parallels.

And I'm not trying to twist any knives, I'm just fumbling about trying to find some truth and logic in this awful mess.

[2kitties]

can I ask a question that may seem related but is meant to be ENTIRELY UNRELATED to the comments in this thread?

I'll try.

What are interrogators allowed to do to prisoners during questioning? I mean, if Osama is arrested and he's asked questions then he says "no comment"- what are the interrogators then "supposed" to do?

no irony intended in my question. just a pure question.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza


And I'm not trying to twist any knives, I'm just fumbling about trying to find some truth and logic in this awful mess.

You'll never find truth and logic there.....

I am not saying 'they' messed up, WE messed up.

I think, as an American, I can take just as much blame for what happened in that prison. It was not my hand, but it was done by the hands we sent to represent us.

Guilty by association.

We hang all our dirty laundry on the line for everyone to see. It's all there.

If you want to see some brutal torture pics check out the "Rape of Nanking" In that tome there is a pic of some soldiers standing next to a woman with a bayonet between her legs.

We didn't invent torture, beheadings or anything like that....The reason this story broke is we have the same technology that everyone uses across the world that was able to get the 'word' out about what we did.... and you'll hear about what we do ABOUT IT thru the same medium.

There is no sanity, truth or logic in what happened. Ordinary Americans, ashamed of the actions of a few, will accept it, try to fix it and move on. While it may not be the answer that the world is looking for, it's the best we can do with our system, and imperfect as it is.

If we don't learn from our mistakes here,
then we deserve the mistrust of the world.

We aren't the first to screw up in front of the world, and we won't be the last.

What happened in those walls of that prison is not
typically American, that much I know.

But, I have yet to see a perfect government on the planet.....

I think we can take our place amongst the not-so-perfect countries.

We have forgotten and forgiven, I don't see why we aren't afforded the same privilege.