Nelson Mandela on U.S. actions...

[Soledad]

Considering that I don't condescend to those younger than myself, I don't think I'll have to worry about being trodden over in my older years.

Someone's age is irrelevant. And when one resorts to another's youth as their only defence, one has already admitted defeat. It is a factor, only one and its importance is very low. Maturity is far more important, and as this thread has shown, one does not need to be young to show a lack of it.

[Ann]

Dixieland Dancer, I understand your point but I will still hold to it that there is a great difference. When the actual people sit down and take a vote about how much money should be spent on this and that, then I will change my mind.

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
In response to the Atom bomb being used in Japan. What about the attack on Pearl Harbor that started the conflict between Japan and the USA? Was that justified? In war you have to realize there are casualties on both sides.

I focused a lot of my article/rant on that actually... See, the difference is that the 3290 people killed at Pearl Harbor were almost all military, and the over 300 000 people that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians. The aftermath in Japan was terrible as well, with thousands of people dying in cancer and other diseases. The total lack of responsibility in dropping the first nuclear bomb (without a thought or care towards the consequences) was only out-done by dropping the second bomb on Nagasaki, after already seeing the terrible outcome. Pearl Harbor was actual war; Hiroshima and Nagasaki were murder.

jackiesdaisy1935, I see that you are going to ignore me now... LOL

Originally posted by lbaker
I think it's very telling that the most rational, most reasonable and intellegent comments here are those coming from those of us who have "been around" awhile and had some time and experience to grow up a bit. I'm not putting the "younger generation" down or anything but really...... get some real experience before you start your preaching about how right you are and how wrong we are

Laurie, American & proud of it

I dunno, but I think the people who are being rational, most reasonable and intellegent are the younger people. The older people use name-calling (like Richard's "pissant" countries or jackiesdaisy1935 "peachypoo") and irrational and ignorant comments like your own about age mattering. It's a well accepted fact that younger people are more open to new ideas, while old people like yourself or so set in their beliefs that they cannot even listen to the younger generation without basing them, like you just did. I find that extremely dissapointing that it had to come down to this.

And seriously, look at Richard's posts. He refers to war as "let's dance" and makes all sorts of other comments. How mature is that?! And he must be over 40 since he's worked in the med field over 26 years, like he said himself.

I think I will try to follow Soledad's example and leave this thread alone unless some maturity and intellegence is brought back in. It was nice while it lasted...

[Paul]

   Ann, if you do not want to post the numbers here please email them to me.

      Paul

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by popcornbird


So you are saying its justified to use an ATOMIC bomb and kill millions of innocent civilians that had NOTHING to do with the war??? They could have used a regular bomb. They could have done the same as what Japan did to them. WHY did they have to use a "weapon of mass destruction?" The President at the time was insane, that's all I can say. INSANE. And anyone supporting the crime he committed by nuking millions of people is insane too. NO the Pearl Harbor attack was NOT justified, but nuking a country like that is MORE unjustified. The fact is that some people just don't have a heart in regards to people of other nations. The Pearl Harbor was not justified at all, but killing millions of innocent people like that was a crime aganst humanity.

A real crime against humanity was what the Nazi's did to the Jews. They were totally innocent. While dropping the bomb on Japan was a horrible thing, it WAS an act of war. I believe if the Japanese had the bomb they would of used it on us too. I do not believe there is a justification meter saying one way of killing is more justified than another. Killing is killing is killing. Unfortunately, that happens in war.

I believe knowing now the effects that these types of weapons can have is one of the reasons we need to get Saddam unarmed. Nobody wants to see such a terrible thing happen again to any country, including the United States!


The fact is that some people just don't have a heart in regards to people of other nations.

I think this is probably the most unthought out statement in this whole thread. I won't even Justify it with an answer.

[Ann]

Originally posted by Paul
Ann, if you do not want to post the numbers here please email them to me.

I'm sorry, but what do you mean?

[Paul]

   On the first page of this thread you said:

"However, the USA's aid (in terms of percentage to their GDP) is the lowest of any industrialized nation in the world!"

   and

"USA only gave 0,11%"

   However, this number is only a partial accounting of the UN ODA funding. It is not the level of the "USA's aid" in total. Even if you choose to restrict your meaning to government funding. You have said this is a "proven fact." Where is it proven?

[RICHARD]

i never claimed to be mature.

'youngsters' tend to be idealists until the cold hard boot
of time, and the world, plants one on your backside.

namecalling? that's immature, i agree, and i apologized to being politically incorrect.

how's about arguing the difference between war and murder?
please explain that one.

in el lay (los angeles) there are people who call the '94 riots, 'social unrest'. CAT SPIT!!!!!


my let's dance referral was not about bowie's album but to the
fact that if we are bullies and thugs, even terrorists. and when someone in another country calls on our dance card (dance card- that may be lost on you youngsters, ask an adult..) we will dance.

because there is a dispute as to what war is compared to murder,
i sanitized the war reference to make the united states not seem
as barbarian as we may be led to believe.

we can argue history as long as we want...
that matters is the future..

and if we are going to discuss what a cruel country the u.s. was
read up on the bataan death march. POWs were walked, starved, shot, bayoneted to death- along with the illnesses,
injuries, and suffering those men were put thru.

then think about every mass grave from wwi to gulf war.......
put a name to the b@st@rds that had no thought of piling men women and kids into a pit and killing them. put faces to those people and the families left behind and the suffering they went thru.

you are right, it's not dancing.

it's a damn shame that we have to know about those things and
have to let our children find out about them. in middle school i saw a film where the allies used a bulldozer to push the bodies of the victims of the concentration camps in mass graves.....

funny, even the US has MY LAI to hang their head about
(ask your parents)

we have a short memory when it comes to pissa......ah, other countries doing injustices to each other with ethnic cleansing and other stupid, evil acts......but we get hammered for for using our
technology for taking war to someones doorstep.

back in ww ii we used hundreds of bombers and bombs to take out a factory, now we use one GBU to blow up a building, where some dictator has massed innocent civilians, and we are the criminals?


let's discuss that one.

[mugsy]

It's interesting that the comment about the younger being more rational. I was looking at this stuff while my kids were working on worksheets today and I had some of them come up to ask questions and while I was looking things up they were reading someone's post and were asking what was going on and when they read some more they were quite disturbed by the anti-Americanism on the thread, they too were upset that people from/living in other countries were so hostile about Americans. While I know I live in a VERY conservative state, I thought it was interesting that these kids held the opinions that they did. We have talked about the war in Iraq and I play devil's advocate with whatever they say in order to get them to talk and it's amazing to me what they come up with and their support for what's going on after asking questions and me telling them to go do the research and come back with an opinion. So, that's a long way around saying that maybe it's not age that makes the difference.

And I think that the really funny sarcasm (in my opinion)by Richard is not being taken in the correct context. And Ann, I seem to recall that your language is not always pristine in conversations.

[Soledad]

There's no point in discussing these things with Richard, in my opinion. He doesn't know enough facts for starters, and then when he's cornered it evolves into an "I'm older than you" or "we either fight or get beaten" or "we're the best country in the world" rant. So, really, what's the point? All that happens is that some people point out specifics and someone charges at them with emotions. Not very constructive.

As for your school kids, I think it's high time they (and the rest of America) realize not only that America has such a low favorability rating worldwide but more importantly WHY. Because if they don't know the WHY then they turn to the patriotic ranting as a defence and no one learns or wins that way.

I am proud about many American things, but I am not proud that my country is turning against the very principles it was founded on. And I will not stand by and watch others ruin it without saying anything.

[mugsy]

What principles would those be? One of the articles of the Constitution says that the government's job is to protect and defend.

And as for American patriotism "ranting" I think it's great that there are people out there who love the country where they were born or became naturalized so much that they want to shout it from the hilltops...and I don't mean just Americans. I think all people should be proud of the country of their birth, unless they dislike it because of atrosities that it has commited against them and they move.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
There's no point in discussing these things with Richard, in my opinion. He doesn't know enough facts for starters, and then when he's cornered it evolves into an "I'm older than you" or "we either fight or get beaten" or "we're the best country in the world" rant.

try me.

i double dog dare you.

i tossed out enough for anyone to make me eat crow (medium rare) and you come back with politically incorrect and age..

YOU brought up the diaper reference and i replied.

and by the way when did i say I'm older or fight or get beaten?,
I did say WE ARE THE BEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD. in a baseball game you are batting up there, in quoting me you
have one more strike to go......oops! another american reference-
baseball......who cornered who?

pick out one tidbit and let's dance.


and after i eat crow i'll gladly have a piece of humble pie.......no not the band......ask your parents...

[Soledad]

Excuse me, but I said discussion not contest. This isn't a game, and my intent for this thread was not to make some sort challenge about who can have a better come back. It's about an exchange, a discussion, a debate, none of which you seem to have any idea about.

Besides, your logic and train of thought are barely coherent. And I'd appreciate you leaving my parents out of this.

[mugsy]

And I don't appreciate being told I'm stupid or not worthy of a discussion because I don't agree with your stand which is usually what happens. And speaking of condescending...

And...you didn't answer my question

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
I was looking at this stuff while my kids were working on worksheets today and I had some of them come up to ask questions and while I was looking things up they were reading someone's post and were asking what was going on .

i would appreciate it that you do not let your children read any
thing that i have written..it disturbs me to think your children may grow up like me, some ill mannered, chest thumping moron, who thinks he lives in the best country in the world.

thank you.

[Soledad]

When did I say you were not worthy of a discussion?

Ah, well. So you need me to spell it out? How bout the TIA? How about the invasion of privacy? This is just for starters.

I condescend to people who think they know it all yet display little or no actual knowledge, just emotions.

Like I said earlier, this thread is lost.