Nelson Mandela on U.S. actions...

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Ann


Please read my original message as it was written. I say "The USA is masquerading etc.", not "The people of the USA is etc.".

.

I'd like to clear up a misconception here....
the united states was formed 'by the people, for the people'
so when you say 'USA' you happen to get us all involved in the
conversation......in for a penny, in for a pound.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by Ann


Please read my original message as it was written. I say "The USA is masquerading etc.", not "The people of the USA is etc.".

This is a contradictory statement. The USA is a Republic. A Republic is a govenment that elects it representatives to represent them. If you refer to the govenment as being the masguerader then you ARE referring to the people since the people are the ones who elected those governing over us.

When America's government fails it is because the people failed to do their job in electing representatives with the general vision of our country in mind. It is called apathy when voter registration and turnout are at an all time low. It is called apathy when people do nothing until it is too late. In other words many Americans fail to understand the responsibilities that go hand in hand with having rights and freedoms. Let someone else worry about it is an easier attitude than actually doing something.

There has been blood shed and lives lost on our own soil trying to defend the price of freedom. I tell my son all the time, freedom is not free. It was bought with a very high price. Your Constitutional rights should mean something powerful enough within your being to prevent careless apathy. Something as simple as being informed and voting helps your voice to be heard. A small pet peeve of mine is to see Americans walking and talking during the playing of our National Anthem. How can we expect other countries to respect us when we don't always show respect from within our own borders for the smallest things such as standing at attention when our National Anthem is played?

People in general get weary when things do not go their way. We are not to be weary in doing good but to continue in what is right for the betterment of all man kind.

What if someone had done something sooner to stop Hitler when millions of Jews were being murdered. Why did so many Jews walk into the gas chambers without a fight? Why did the civilized world refuse to realize the attrocities that were occuring? Because it is easier to do nothing than to step up to the plate and actually do something. What would our world be like now if Hitler had not been stopped? Scarey thought!

If a battle with Iraq does happen, make no mistake, the price will be high on both sides. I speak as a mom with a son who is headed to the region as I write. Would I rather see my son home? You bet! But as an American he is the defender right now so that all Americans can continue to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As a mother it is a hard thing to swallow. As an American I understand the need and sacrifice. If we go to war, I would like support for his efforts to perserve the way of life many take for granted. I do not want someone bashing him for defending our freedoms and treating him like he was wrong.

My opinion is Saddam is a danger. He kills those who do not agree with him in his own country. Facts are that he has used biological chemicals on the Kurdish people in Iraq. He has killed and performed senseless murders on people in his country that do not agree with him much like Hitler did to the Jews. Do I think Saddam would like to kill Americans if he could? Yes I do.

President Bush (I like to refer to him in his title to show respect) has a weight on his shoulders that no one else can fathom. He is faced with protecting Americans from harm. Harm such as the 911 attacks, harm from chemical warfare, harm from terrorism. Never before has the world been forced to deal with such terrible things. It is now possible to wipe out entire cities with the drop of a chemical. Believe what you may but it is a very heavy responsibility our President carries and one I do not think he is taking lightly even though some say he is. I know I would not want that weight on my shoulders!

In response to the Atom bomb being used in Japan. What about the attack on Pearl Harbor that started the conflict between Japan and the USA? Was that justified? In war you have to realize there are casualties on both sides. Yes, many lives were killed in a small instance. We have also taken the responsibility to help rebuild the area after war was over. Perhaps there are still to this day Japanese who feel the affects of the war and do not accept the help continued to be offered so many years after the war. It is personal for them and understandable. But the help is still offered for the good of the masses.

Did anyone try to rebuild the towers after the terrorist attacks? No! Why? Because there is a difference between an actual war and terroristic attacks! We are not being terrorists and just going in their and killing. We are giving them the opportunity to disarm the chemical weapons first. They know the consequences and so do we.

I am PROUD to be an AMERICAN! I make no apologies for it and will defend my country to my dying day so that all Americans can continue to live in a free world! Even with all the bad things associated with it, it is still the best way of life in the entire world or our borders would not be over flowing with immigrants trying to get in.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Popcornbird, if you think people from around the world hate us why don't you go in "Light a candle for Columbia" read the comments that people from around the world have written. Don't forget five of those people were American, one naturalized Indian, and one person from Israel. I doubt that they would light a candle from so many countries if we were hated as much as you say we are.
Jackie

[Paul]

   popcornbird, I read the same posts and see everyone here agrees as Richard said, "We are not a perfect country."

   Richard has been talking about saving lives. The "blah blah blah stuff" is key to understanding.

   FYI, The US has been attacked far more often than two times. The War of 1812 springs to mind first. The Japanese in WWII attacked far more US soil than just Pearl Harbor. They captured the Kiska and Attu islands.

   In addition, the recent deadly Anthrax attack should be kept in mind.

      Paul

[lbaker]

I think it's very telling that the most rational, most reasonable and intellegent comments here are those coming from those of us who have "been around" awhile and had some time and experience to grow up a bit. Amazing what actually experiencing a few things (civil rights, women's rights, vietnam) first handed can do to ones perspective. I'm not putting the "younger generation" down or anything but really...... get some real experience before you start your preaching about how right you are and how wrong we are

Laurie, American & proud of it

[mugsy]

Richard, I hope that you didn't think that I had taken offense to anything that you said, because I didn't. I agree with almost all of your points.

And it was ME that said something about Tobey Keith, not Richard. And I only said it because I happen to like the song what he had to say in it. It never entered my mind to think that TK had or has any political agenda.

Ann, I think everyone has the right speak as they please, but had better have a thicker skin than you do when someone says something that you don't agree with.

Finally, I guess ultimately what should happen then is to have the Americans go in and remove Saddam and just let everyone else fend for themselves and we can just live and let live and the rest of the world can live and let live also. We'll all just stay out of everyone else's business and if a country falls, they fall and that's just too bad and if others make a bundle of money and everything is hunky dorey then great and there it shall be. If America should stay out of other countries militarily, then I guess that we shouldn't have to send aid to other countries...not that I think that that's a good idea, but I also think that the US should be able to send troops in too.

[sammi]

Popcorn, why are you so down on the USA? My grandparents moved to this country for a better life and for everyday I am greatful. If I wasn't I could leave. Did your family not come from another country? Do you not consider the US your home? Would your family be willing to go to war if needed? We need to have faith in our goverment and not belittle it.

[RICHARD]

popcorn,

i have no fear of smallpox or any other terrorist knucklehead.
trust in god? i have yet to see god give an vaccination! can you expound on the blah blah blah????? there is a slight difference between the reality of your god and the fantasy of war.


if you have to go you have to go. i have worked in the med
field for 26 years and fear the effects on the children in my country, should that come to pass......

we are killing thousands of children, how?
prove it. Good to know the U.S. has killed more people in iraq than saddam. explain how we can 'get' saddam when he surrounds himself with civilians??

we are not out to change any culture. but if the culture
talks out of their hats and promises homicide bombers,
more terror-let's dance!


seeing that we should not get involved in the middle east
and the politics or religion in the area leads me to believe that
saddam should be left alone? or am i wrong?

now i understand. we should leave saddam alone because it's right, his freedom to run a nation the way he wants. gotcha.

and we should have left osama alone too?

the stories of the atrocities against the kurds, afghanis and the other people in the area should be pooh poohed?

i like the fact that the taliban used the soccer grounds as their personal killing fields in the name of religion. our government,
as hated as it is, gives a person the chance in a courtroom, they just do not parade a 'criminal' around a track and blow their brains out, in front of crowd-in the name of religion, with an
AK. i mean, think of the money we could save on court costs?

for the record, religion has killed more people in history than anything else.

as for the humor i provide, i am glad that I bring a smile to
someone i do not know.

Since the united states is considered a bully we may as well go in and do the TOBY.....why disappoint the world???
since we think we are the world police force, let's go.
let's go disrupt the world's freedom!
let's go bomb other countries and show them we have muscle.
let's show the world what 227 years of progress has given us
when you have nations that have been around for thousands of
years and they still cannot get people out of mud huts.
we do thing like that because we can, for no reason at all.
and that makes us feel real good!!! warm and fuzzy.



if we are going to be hated, then let's get on with the impression.

as i stated in another post, in for a penny........


as far as chuckles go, i feel oh so lucky to be able to live in a country where i can freely critique my government.....it does not happen in too many countries around the planet.

the problem is not with the people in those countries, it's with the
people in charge. if saddam was not there we would not have
dropped bombs on 'thousands of innocents'.

btw i feel pretty lucky that i live here, should i go shooting off
my stupid mouth in the middle east like i am doing at my computer here in the states, i would have been long gone.

oh, i plead guilty to the charge of being politically incorrect.

[Paul]

   popcornbird, President Truman presented cogent arguments for the use of the atomic bombs. I can see how reasonable people may disagree with his assessments but you have not dealt with any of them. How many people did the US government predict would die as a result of the bombing? What did the US government tell the Japanese people?

The fact is that some people just don't have a heart in regards to people of other nations.

   I don't think you are paying close attention to the comments of the others here.

      Paul

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
Richard, I hope that you didn't think that I had taken offense to anything that you said, because I didn't. I agree with almost all of your points.

And it was ME that said something about Tobey Keith, not Richard.

offended??

no way, we are adults and we conduct ourselves as such.

and

i wanna talk about ME i wanna talk about I, I wanna talk about
number one oh my, me my.....................lol

[Tanya&Fritz]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I don't agree with Bush, I don't agree with Blair, I don't agree with Saddam, I don't agree with Musharraf, I don't agree with King Fahad or any other leader. We seriously need new good leaders throughout the world. I

On a lighter note, you forgot about our wonderful prime minister of Canada, Jean Chretien. At least President Bush can speak English propertly Now, Jean Chretien, that's embarrasing

[mugsy]

Richard....that's the WRONG song!! lol Although I like that one too. Mike especially likes it. Have you seen the video for that one?? It is riotus.

Laurie....very good point. It's amazing what a few years of living in the real world does for one's perspective.

[Soledad]

I'm not going to say much because this conversation (with a few exceptions) has turned into an emotional rant about why America is great, rather than a thoughtful and engaging discussion about pertinent issues.

I am not a child. I have lived in the 'real world' for quite some time. I am university educated and employed in the field of politics. So take your generalizations elsewhere, please.

Remember that it is the young that are going to be taking over the world while you're in adult diapers.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
Richard....that's the WRONG song!! lol Although I like that one too. Mike especially likes it. Have you seen the video for that one?? It is riotus.

i know!!!!! you said that it was ME that mentioned toby keith not richard...i thought i'd give the kinder gentler toby some space....

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I'm not going to say much because this conversation (with a few exceptions) has turned into an emotional rant about why America is great, rather than a thoughtful and engaging discussion about pertinent issues.

I am not a child. I have lived in the 'real world' for quite some time. I am university educated and employed in the field of politics. So take your generalizations elsewhere, please.

Remember that it is the young that are going to be taking over the world while you're in adult diapers.

I am seeking the advice of counsel......i have bruised my chest extolling the virtues of my country.

as far as adult diapers, it DEPENDS, please remember the alzheimer addled, incontinent fools you have so gladly suffered and remember the ground work laid by us, for you, as you climb the ladder into history. step on our fingers, shoulders, heads and
shed no tears as you walk over the bones of the people who made the world for the future generations to take it over.
remember, don't make the mistakes we made, take care of the earth, be a part of society and take care of the children, for they will be climbing over your alzheimerer addled, incontinent bodies
as they move into their future.