is this cruel?

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
Way off topic but I've got to say, Maria, your new sig is great!

I was just thinking the same thing.

[MariaM]

THANK YOU! I'm rather proud of it myself.

[aly]

I'd like to thank the people who know me enough to know I wouldn't sit here calling people cruel or uneducated. I don't know what to do, short of saying it until blue in the face, I WASN'T JUDGING ANYONE HERE OR CALLING ANYONE ANYTHING. I've been here for 4 years. Surely in that time, people have gotten to know me and know that I don't go around causing trouble or calling people names. If anyone would like to come hook me up to a lie detector test, feel free. I don't think badly of anyone here who chooses to use these collars. I DO think badly of people who use them in a cruel manner.

I feel like some people think I just don't like it because it looks mean. And some people think I just don't know because I have medium sized dogs. I don't talk about my experience to toot my own horn. I do it so that people can see I'm forming an educated opinion. I would never so passiionately stand behind something that I didn't know much about. I hate to look like a fool, so when I say something, I make absolute sure I know a lot about it. I've experienced the incredible task of walking a 175 lb adolescent male dog who thought he was king of the world. Not fun and left me crying more than once. With consistency, myself and the other volunteers were eventually able to make extreme progress with him using only positive methods. It did take longer than usual.

By the way, the "be a tree" method DOES work. Everyone is right when they say dogs are different and need different training methods. But the key to training is patience and consistency. A lot of people will practice "being a tree" (not moving when the dog pulls) most of the time, but when in a hurry, let the dog get away with some pulling. Well, if the dog gets away with it just even once out of twenty times, the dog will know there is a chance it will work again and continue pulling and pulling hoping to get rewarded for it again. I could go a lot further into that theory with examples, but I doubt anyone wants me to talk more on this thread.

Lorraine - I can't really explain anything else to you. You won't hear it.

It means a lot to me that some of you stood up for who I am, knowing I wouldn't do that. Thanks

[K9soul]

Aly, I do hope you realize that I never thought you were calling names, I just advised anyone and everyone when discussing training methods that the use of the words like "cruel" can easily be taken personally and misunderstood (as we are seeing here somewhat I think).

In your first post you stated: "I think it is very cruel" As someone who has used one before my knee-jerk reaction was to feel that someone considered something I did to be cruel, and just the thought that someone might think I was being cruel to my dogs by using one made me feel almost tearful. Please I hope you can understand why I, or someone else, might have read it that way, at least at first. After taking some time to think and consider things, and yes also because I know you and how kind hearted and caring and sensitive you are, I decided it wasn't meant the way it might appear. I then made my response that just the WORDING was what can throw people off. "I don't like them" wouldn't have hit me the same way as "I think they are cruel" did.

I truly hope you can kind of understand where I'm coming from here, and I do understand where you are coming from as well. The LAST thing I want is to hurt you and make you feel singled out and attacked.

I know you are feeling distressed now so I just want you to know that I know how kind hearted and caring a person you are, and that you never intended to say anyone here was cruel. You were just trying to encourage what you feel to be a better method. {{group hugs}}

[Vette]

Ive heard good things about prong collars. but the looks of them alone is scary.

[micki76]

Aly, I don't think anyone thinks you're being mean, or calling names (and if they do, they don't know you at all). I think, like Jessica said, some people may have a knee jerk reaction to your choice of words. I know you don't think I'm a cruel pet owner, or I wouldn't have Digger... Uh, Cinny. BTW - she's getting her own sandbox this weekend!

Yes, it may be a band aid, but if it works for some people and some dogs, then great. I say whatever works and makes a happy cohesive family is good. I never said I liked the prong collar either, but I think it can be a useful tool.

Now, stop trying to defend yourself and give Reecie Pie & Lolly Pops a kiss for me!

[aly]

Jessica, I didn't feel attacked by you and I wasn't offended by what you said so don't worry. I should have clarified my usage of 'cruel'. But sometimes I get carried away with typing, and although I reread my posts before submitting, I don't always catch what will be offensive.

The ONLY thing I am hurt and offended by in this thread is after repeatedly explaining myself and saying I was NOT calling anyone here cruel or uneducated, I was still being lashed out at and accused. Its like I was being called a liar. Since it was just one person saying that though, I'm willing to drop it.

My whole point in this thread is that while prong collars do work, there are much better methods to use.

Micki - I am SO picky about where my foster dogs go, so you'd never have Cinny if I didn't think you were a WONDERFUL doggy mom. I've seen first hand the luxurious life your dogs lead sorry about the digging, hope she's not causing TOO much trouble

[LauraT7]

"My whole point in this thread is that while prong collars do work, there are much better methods to use. "

I think we would all agree with that - and I also think that everyone here who said they'd used one - has also said that they tried almost everything else first.

I also would agree that the 'be a tree' method, or 'turn and go the other way' idea works as well - I used it to very good results with my first two goldens - who I raised from puppies. But with some dogs, they just really don't care if something is pulling on their neck, and in my case, my bursitis in my shoulder and my back was so bad that I could not stand the strain of constant jerks on my shoulder and back to correct a puller who had '4 on the floor' to my two! the 'tree' or 'turn' still jerked my back more than it affected Tristan, who was totaly concentrated on some scent or some thing.

when my shoulder and back were bad - Tristan got NO walking - and my son was too lightweight to handle him either.

(not that Tristan would ever hurt anyone, he just had no idea what he was doing, and could have dragged himself and Jon into traffic or trouble)

I also think that anyone who posted here, only uses the prong collar AS NEEDED - not all the time, and they took the time to learn how to use it properly - meaning that it does not actually hurt or injure the dog. Certainly there isn't aperson on this board ( that I have seen so far) who would actually INTEND to hurt their precious pet! Every person who HAS used it, went to that solution only after trying multiple alternatives.

------------------

Experience can be a great teacher....

I had to smile when someone above mentioned that they USED to think crates were cruel. I was one of those people who thought crates were cruel, back in the 80's when my first goldens, Toby and Tara, were puppies, and our trainer encouraged her classes to crate train. I thought, 'how horrible to put your furchild in a CAGE all day!"

I came home everyday at lunch to let my dogs out - at the time, we had a fairly good-sized eat-in kitchen, but no kitchen table and chairs - so it was an ideal place to baby-gate two puppies safely - or so i thought....

Until one day, I came home at lunchtime from work - to let them out - and found that my two golden pups (probably about 4 or 5 months old at the time) had
1 peed on their papers properly
2 chased and played in the kitchen, flipping the soiled papers all over the floor
3 bounced open the kitchen cabinets while playing
4 pulled every box of cereal, kleenex, papertowels and dry food out of the opened cabinets
and
5 - shredded and strewn it ALL over the entire kitchen - it was about knee deep in shredded paper, dry food and poopy paper!
(runny, after eating all that sweet cereal)

YUCH!

I let them out in the fenced yard to go while I tried to clean up the mess (dressed in heels and my bank uniform), when I glanced out the window in time to see Toby get stuck under the fence, trying to escape the yard! ( Toby's little butterball tummy was too fat, but his slimmer sister, Tara had squeeked through, first!)

I had to race out into the mucky, spring muddy backyard to catch my runaway pup - my heels kept sticking in the mud so I couldn't run and catch her - and I was terrified she'd get out in the busy road and hit by a car!

Eventually she came back to me, and I got both muddy, wet and tired puppies back in the house. My uniform was wrecked, my shoes were wrecked, and I was a wreck!

I promptly, and tearfully, called my husband, insisting -

"you'd BETTER stop by the pet shop on the way home and bring us two crates! NOW! before something serious happens to Toby and Tara - i just can't handle this!"

----------------

Because i didn't use their crates for punishment - only for protection, they learned to LOVE being in their crates. Now, I would never have a dog who wasn't 'crate-trained' - even though all of my dogs generally have free run of the house all the time. it's so much better that they alredy are used toa crate in the security of home, so that it doesn't add to their discomfort when at the vets or groomers.

----------------
Crates can be misused - I've known people who want to keep a dog in a crate all day while they are at work, have the dog out for a few hours at in the evening, and put the dog back into the crate whenever the dog gets in their way - such as at dinner time - and then they put the dog back in the crate all night - just because they don't want to train the dog how to behave within the family. What a miserable life for a dog! - but in that case, it isn't the CRATE that is cruel - it's the people using it incorrectly!

ANY training tool can be misused. the key is to make sure you are using the training tools correctly and in the best interests of the DOG.

Laura

[aly]

I agree about the crates. I also thought it was cruel at first glance, but researched it and found it to be a great tool that has saved many dogs' lives. However, I really dont think the prong collars can be compared. I've researched those as well and still have not changed my mind. Also, if there are better alternatives, why not use them? The crate is a very positive method, where the prong collars are not.

[cubby31682]

I am just reading this thread today.

Gracie only gets walked on her prong collar. As soon as we pull out the collar she starts bouncing, spinning and ready to go. She has to sit before we will even try to put it on her. As soon as it's on she becomes the perfect dog I always wanted. Lol. We can take her for a walk, which I keep a pocket full of treats when we take her. When she walks really good I pet her tell her she is a good girl and give her a treat. We took the prong collar off during a walk one time. HUGE mistake. She seen people, she thinks people were made to pet her at all times and play with her at all times as well. So we told her to sit and put it right back on again.

When we put it on her she holds her head up high and sniffs the air and not the ground. She stays right next to us and doesn't try to lead us at all. She watches us every few steps she looks up at my husband or me. Who ever has the leash is who she looks at.

When we take her to a pet store that is the first thing we put on her before we enter. She loves children and will run up to them and knock them over to lick them. That isn't something we need. A lot of people around here are afraid of Dobermans we are trying to show them how good they can be. While at the pet store with the prong collar on if some one wants to pet her she sits down and sticks her nose up to smell them. Where as before she would run up to them and force them to pet her.

She is a very stubbern dog in public. This is the one thing that has helped us. When we got her they gave us the prong collar and I was very against them, until they showed me how to use them. They let me feel the prongs, (I always thought they were sharp) they are dull and not hurtful unless used wrong.

She also has a nylon choke collar. Which she always wears. I didn't know that it was a choke collar until my brother pointed it out. It has a ring that you tighten, she minds well when you use that as well. So I will be trying to use that for her walks from now on.

I think I have said enough for now.

[Denyce]

I am curious as to why if Gracie walks so well on the prong collar you are now willing to switch to a choke collar. Even knowing that choke collars can do more neck damage than prong collars. This isn't an attack I am just very curious. We use a martingale or modified choke or greyhound collar on Sequoia(our husky) but after reading this whole thread I am now considering a prong collar. Well I also have spoken with some people locally that I respect about the prongs and they recommend them. So I really am wondering about your change of attitude.

Denyce

[Amber]

ouch. that looks like it hurts.

[cubby31682]

Originally posted by Denyce
I am curious as to why if Gracie walks so well on the prong collar you are now willing to switch to a choke collar. Even knowing that choke collars can do more neck damage than prong collars. This isn't an attack I am just very curious. We use a martingale or modified choke or greyhound collar on Sequoia(our husky) but after reading this whole thread I am now considering a prong collar. Well I also have spoken with some people locally that I respect about the prongs and they recommend them. So I really am wondering about your change of attitude.

Denyce

After thinking about my post all day and reading everything I read on choke collars today, I wont use her regular collar like that.

That was my orginal plan was to slowly switch her to her regual collar. Which also doubles as a choke collar. It is all nylon except the rings on it. I don't want her to have any damage to her neck at all. So I wont use it. I have learned a lot from this thread, and I have been doing a little bit more reading today.

I also did NOT feel as though you were attacking me. I understand you wanted to ask a question which you did. I hope I cleared things up a little bit. I am not always the best at getting my opinions out correctly. My mind and fingers don't work together to well. If I didn't clear things up please feel free to ask any more questions.

[jackie]

ok, after must thought and consideration i finally purchased a prong collar. and i have to admit i am very impressed. tito has always been great to walk around the area we live, but whenever we took him anywhere new, he went crazy pulling and choking. the prong collar put an end to that.

i still use his nylon collar, but when he starts to pull enough to choke and sputter i change him over to the prong. yesterday i walked him all the way to the beach and back, which is an hour each way, and he was an angel.

i hope witha bit of practise and more training, we can switch him off the prong and just use his normal collar all the time.