Nelson Mandela on U.S. actions...

[lbaker]

"...BLIND AMERICAN PRIDE"... oh please, Richard Mugsy Paul Jackie & so many others posting here and I ARE Americans and DO have pride. That is hardly "BLIND" Our eyes are open to our faults as well as our strengths and I see nothing wrong with being proud of this country we call home. Get over yourselfs Let he (or they) who have never sinned cast the first stone.... just make sure it hits its aim because ours surely will.

Laurie, U.S. citizen and proud of it

[jackiesdaisy1935]

I'm sorry you deleted Richard's post, we read all this nonsense about our Country and when a good reply is posted in defense it is deleted. I'm tired of reading this kind of U.S. bashing, why is it so many people are breaking down our borders to come in here if we are so bad and why are not people leaving the U.S. in droves if this country is so bad to go elsewhere? Peachypoo if you think the terriorists, if left unchecked, will not eventually get to Sweden than your head is in the sand and you will be crying for the U.S. to come save your butt.
Jackie, A U.S. Citizen and Retired Military family and proud of it.

[mugsy]

Watch out Laurie, you'll be accused of being narrowminded and short sighted for having pride in your country since it's such a filthy, dirty, evil place to live, and our government is the worst in the world, and we're so greedy.

Personally, I'm glad that the American haters just stay out of the country. We have enough radical left wingers that do enough to downgrade their own country (for which I wish they would just shut up and leave if they don't like it).

As for looking to Tobey Keith as a policy setter, that's just plain stupid. He's an entertainer who had something to say about 9/11 and was still grieving his father who had been killed by a drunk driver when he wrote the song. He has as much right to say what he said in that song as people like Susan Sarandan, Sean Penn, and Alec Baldwin have in spewing their anti-American crap. I do think that it is sad that so many people look to entertainers as role models and mold their lives after them, so in that way Soledad, I agree with your statement.

I also agree that Bush is not the greatest politician who ever lived and that he makes stupid comments, but then who doesn't. Even Laura Ingraham ( a far right wing talk radio host) made that statement (for which I was genuinely shocked, because she is about the most irritating thing to listen to, just short of Dr. Joy Brown). But I also agree that if what Mandela said was NOT taken out of context that he was WAY off base and his comments were so stupid that their validity should be questioned. If someone can give me a totally unbiased reason why we should NOT remove Saddam then I am all for listening to it, because when I made my decision that I thought that he SHOULD be removed, I made it based on reading and listening to both sides before making my final judgement.

[Paul]

   I believe every pet is special. I believe every person is a caring generous person deserving of respect (until proven otherwise). I like Pet of the Day because it has wonderfully surprised me how many people from around the world love their pets.

   I believe the same principle applies to nations. They are caring generous nations until proven otherwise.

   Some people believe a new war with Iraq will be necessary to preserve human life. Some people believe the exact opposite.

   I understand debate over this issue is difficult under the best of circumstances. What I do not understand and is why we do not conduct this debate with the utmost respect for each other. I think we deserve better.

      Paul

[Paul]

   I did not delete Richard's post. I guess Richard removed it.

      Paul

[mugsy]

Yes, Jackie, you are so right. I guess military families have a different slant on things than others since they have lived it first hand and deal with it on a daily basis. While Mike and I were not married when he was in the military and he's still proud to say that he served his country, my feelings come from being around my brother-in-law, who for all his faults, still served his country well and I learned from him what is expected from the modern military and learned to just keep my mouth shut about bugging intel guys about their jobs. And all the war haters out there haven't seemed to quite gotten the point that NO ONE likes war, but, because of the human race, it is a necessary evil sometimes to get a point across for the greater good of the world (NO, not just the U.S.) And also, Jackie, you are right, all these other countries who are bashing the war effort will be the first to run to the U.S.'s government for help when dictator's like Saddam or just general nutsos like Osama bin Laden come knocking on their doors (actually knocking the door in) and their butts aren't ready for it. And Sweden, for all of it's wonderfulness, is not free of problems, the biggest of which is Socialism. And like I have said before, if it weren't for the wars in this world and the militaries of democratic societies all this spewing of hate wouldn't be possible.

[Ann]

First off, Richard's post is still here. It's the last post on page 5.

Originally posted by mugsy
If someone can give me a totally unbiased reason why we should NOT remove Saddam then I am all for listening to it

I'm glad you asked, here you go: It's not your country, hence it's none of your business. Would you like it if Iraq/Sweden/whatever came into your country and bombed tons of civilian targets because they don't like Bush or see him as a dictator? Didn't think so...

Sure, Saddam Hussein is a dictator, and a bad one at that, but it still gives you no right to mess with their business, especially with there will be plenty of casualties.

I think this pic fits pretty well right here:

Originally posted by lbaker
"...BLIND AMERICAN PRIDE"... oh please, Richard Mugsy Paul Jackie & so many others posting here and I ARE Americans and DO have pride. That is hardly "BLIND" Our eyes are open to our faults as well as our strengths and I see nothing wrong with being proud of this country we call home. Get over yourselfs Let he (or they) who have never sinned cast the first stone.... just make sure it hits its aim because ours surely will.

Laurie, U.S. citizen and proud of it

I dunno, but it sure doesn't seem like your eyes are open to flaws when you resort to name calling (for example calling every other country "little pissants") and anger. If you look back you will see that I never ever said that Sweden (or any other country) were perfect. So no need to bring up Bible quotes because I see plenty of flaws in Sweden's system as well.

jackiesdaisy1935, I will not be replying to you. Wouldn't want you to leave for a fourth time thanks to me, right?

Gotta go now (dinner time), but I'll respond to Mugsy when I get back.

[Paul]

   Ann, I do not think it is right to differentiate between the government and its people when you say we are "masquerading as a helpful country." Even so, why do think the US Government has given less in foreign aid even on a per capita of GDP basis? You said it is a proven fact but the ODA numbers do not show this. What is the total amount of US Government aid to the world? Not just the UN's ODA fund, not just to grand total given to all UN funds, but the actual total.

   You say "Personal donaters hold no meaning." How much money is given in private donations from the US?

      Paul

[Ann]

Originally posted by mugsy
Watch out Laurie, you'll be accused of being narrowminded and short sighted for having pride in your country since it's such a filthy, dirty, evil place to live, and our government is the worst in the world, and we're so greedy.

Personally, I'm glad that the American haters just stay out of the country. We have enough radical left wingers that do enough to downgrade their own country (for which I wish they would just shut up and leave if they don't like it).

Tobey Keith ... has as much right to say what he said in that song as people like Susan Sarandan, Sean Penn, and Alec Baldwin have in spewing their anti-American crap.

I think the only people who are being called names are ones like myself.

How come that Toby Keith has the "right" to say what he said but anti-USA comments are "spewing hate" and "should stay out of the country"? Doesn't quite match up right there...

Originally posted by mugsy
And all the war haters out there haven't seemed to quite gotten the point that NO ONE likes war, but, because of the human race, it is a necessary evil sometimes to get a point across for the greater good of the world (NO, not just the U.S.) And also, Jackie, you are right, all these other countries who are bashing the war effort will be the first to run to the U.S.'s government for help when dictator's like Saddam or just general nutsos like Osama bin Laden come knocking on their doors (actually knocking the door in) and their butts aren't ready for it. And Sweden, for all of it's wonderfulness, is not free of problems, the biggest of which is Socialism.

I think I've said my peace about war before, and since I know how upset I will get if I start discussing it I will just ignore those comments.

As for us coming asking for the USA to "save our butts" like a certain someone put it, isn't true. Iraq for example, are they asking you to get rid of Saddam? Mass protests with flag burning and all that are put up in Iraq daily, that's not what I call "begging the USA to save their butts".

Of course Sweden has problems. I'm not a blind patriot so I can both see and acknowledge that. I'm sure you thought that would somehow make me upset but as I have said many times before; no country is perfect. However, socialism is not the biggest problem. Far from it... Thanks to socialism we have almost no homeless people, which is great. Sure, our taxes are the highest in the world (which sucks) which is the downside. However, I think this discussion was about the USA and not Sweden so I won't keep going.

Originally posted by Paul
Ann, I do not think it is right to differentiate between the government and its people when you say we are "masquerading as a helpful country." Even so, why do think the US Government has given less in foreign aid even on a per capita of GDP basis? You said it is a proven fact but the ODA numbers do not show this. What is the total amount of US Government aid to the world? Not just the UN's ODA fund, not just to grand total given to all UN funds, but the actual total.

You say "Personal donaters hold no meaning." How much money is given in private donations from the US?

Please read my original message as it was written. I say "The USA is masquerading etc.", not "The people of the USA is etc.".

I'll look up the resource site I got the info from later, don't have the time right now.

And I have no clue how much money is given from private donaters in the USA nor do I see what point that has in this discussion.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Peachypoo the likes of you would never ever enter my mind to leave because of a person like you, it would take a lot more than your babbling about bashing the U.S of A. to do it, I might be banned but never leave on your account.
Jackie

[Daisylover]

I have been following this thread with interest and my question is, what do you do with a bully?

How do you handle him or her? How long do you let someone continue to build his power, torture and kill his own people, aid other terrorists, and amass weapons of mass destruction? Until he uses those weapons? Invades another country? Until his own people who have no power and are completely under this thumb can overthrow him? Are YOU willing to continue to let innocent Iraqi's die and be tortured just because he has a bad day? Doesn't that bother you? You all talk about humaneness like only you're the only ones who have it and the USA is the bully. I question your humaneness.

The unfortunate fact that the US has had to come to the aid of other countries to help them fight off aggressors has to be galling. Europe looked the other way and let Germany bully it's way through the countryside and caused two world wars. Well you can see right there how well ignoring the problem and attempts at diplomacy worked those times. All the ignoring does is allow the bully, any bully, to build his strength and think he can get away with more and more and more because in his egotistical mind everyone else is afraid of him. It is very hard to deal with a psychopath with intellectual/common sense/common ground goals. People like Saddam do not think like us in the US, and they don't think like Europeans either. His is a powerful man who cares little for his own people or those of other countries. He is only interested in being important and having power and control. Negotiation is not even in his vocabulary, so diplomacy will not go far with him. The only thing a bully understands is being beaten. Economic sanctions might have hindered him some, but all in all did little good in keeping him reined in.

Now having said all this, I DO have serious reservations about the direction this confrontation is taking. But I'm also realistic enough to realize that Saddam is not likely to compromise and all of a sudden start admitting he has and surrender his chemical and nuclear weapons. The UN inspection team has said what they are finding is suspicious, that nothing adds up, that they are being lied to. Well, that certainly shows just how willing Saddam is to avoid a showdown doesn't it?. So do we let him use one or more of those weapons first ....maybe on a neighboring country... before we're convinced that yeah, maybe, this guy really IS dangerous? If a bully lived down the street from you and wouldn't let your car go by without throwing stones at it, how would you handle that? Go to the UN you say? Right, let them figure it out.

The issue here is NOT how much per capita people send in aid to other countries. The issue really comes down to how long and how much do you let a bully get away with before enough becomes enough. Yeah, maybe we are egotistical in the States about our military power and technological weapons, but I don't see any other country being entirely capable on their own to keeping a bully subdued. European and American philosophies do not make much of an impression with this man. The Middleastern culture is different and their thinking is different (look at the Taliban). Add to that mix a psychotic who glories in power and that he is right and EVERYONE else is wrong....well I have my doubts about a happy outcome.

It will be interesting and very telling to see what Colin Powell uses tomorrow at the UN as proof of Iraq's lies and subterfuge. If the case cannot be made strongly of wrong-doing then I am the first to say the US has to back off. However I have enough faith in his intergrity that what is presented will not be a pack of lies as so many of you think. I think tomorrow's speech will settle no matter what any of us thinks.

[Ann]

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935
Peachypoo the likes of you would never ever enter my mind to leave because of a person like you, it would take a lot more than your babbling about bashing the U.S of A. to do it, I might be banned but never leave on your account.
Jackie

Stop calling me "Peachypoo". I find it highly annoying and offensive.

Do you want me to go back and copy and paste your three posts where you said you were leaving because of me? Maybe you've already deleted those posts, but on three occasions I did make you "leave". Granted you returned within days and I got warned for it but that's the truth. There is no need for you to lie about it, that's just plain out corny.

Paul, here is my resource: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp. They mention the big difference between the government and personal donaters in the USA, including a number, so I think it will be perfect for you.

Daisylover, you have a good point. But see, the problem is that a lot of people (including myself) don't belive that Bush's only reason for wanting rid of Saddam is to help Iraq. Oil and so on are the reasons most people belive in, and just like in the case of Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein was too supported by the USA. Even if they just wanted to help get rid of the bully, the problem is that innocent people would surely die. If they had some way of just pressing a button and making Saddam dissapear without any casualties then I'd be all for it. But I know that more innocents than guilty would die.

[Paul]

   Ann, there are very few "proven facts" in a discussion like this. It would be nice to agree on just one of them. Yes, I did read your post that is why I asked my questions about the government funds.

   Yes, I looked at that source at the beginning of this thread. I found this source bizarre in that it bases it's conclusions on partial UN ODA funding. Not even total UN ODA funding. As I have said numerous times, ODA funding does not address the total amount of US government aid.

   You have noted that different countries tax with different goals in mind. This is why I think even comparing all government funding of on a per capita GDP basis is unfair. If you do not care how much money the American people give through the UN, through other organizations, and individually then I can not see how you can judge the American contributions through purely federal sources.

   Of course, I have already stated why I believe any monetary index can not indicate generosity.

      Paul

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Yes, and Tobey Keith is a real wizard. It might feel good and "un-p.c.", but how much thought went into this? I feel sorry for anyone who looks to Tobey Keith for policy advice.

And speculation is not enough to launch a war against a leader when a ringleader of a terrorist organisation runs free. Sorry. You have to have something called proof.

You can go on with your blind American pride and put up a defence so large that you can't see reason, but it's going to hit us in the face one of these days. I just hope not too much blood has to be shed.

The rest of the world doesn't hate us cause we drive nice cars and have fast food, they hate us because our government goes into countries, removes leaders and establishes new regimes without so much a mention in the US daily papers.

tobey keith was the farthest thing from my mind when i wrote that..
blind american pride is what got the united states where we are today. it keeps americans free and able to respond to morons like me!

we were already 'hit in the face' on 09/11/2001. find a page where they have pictures of what small pox, radiation sickness and a homicide bomber can do and then rail about blind american pride and what we need to do to keep those things from being seen on the shores of the united states

it's the blind american pride that kept the country together.
i can guarantee you that a 9/11 in any other country would have totally devastated that government. blind american pride is what got the wtc cleaned up. look toward europe and some third world countries and see what happens when disaster strikes. big piles where buildings used to be..
blind american pride was giving blood, money, materials to get the wtc job done. blind american pride is the number of flags we saw after, blind american bride is trying to vaccinate the whole population against small pox


the part that makes me roll on the floor laugh my emm effing arse off are the people who complain about the war,
political agendas, and the regimes we have toppled (where's the proof on those actions?). typical blind american freedom of speech!when you get punched in the face you can hug you attacker, i'm going with the toby k political agenda. it will take a while for him to get the taste of shoe polish outta his mouth.

and calling a country a little pissant isn't on the level of america being the great satan! funny you comment on my blind american pride and my namecalling but you have no comment on what i said about a NBC attack on the united states? as they say on the street, what's up with that?

if we do get a small pox epidemic on our shores will you complain about the government not being able to save you and your loved ones from one of the most devastating illnesses known to man?
will you then say that blind american pride kept us from seeing an attack coming?

blind american pride is giving saddam a chance to come clean before we go over there and ask him to behave.

the rest of the world hates us because we show up on there shores and act like the ugly americans we know we are. money will fix everything, we are loud, obnoxious, we have freedom of speech, we can travel ANYWHERE in our country and the world EVEN SPACE!!! they hate us because we think that a mickey d's
in islamabad is o.k., they hate us because we have t.v., radio,
dvd's, porn, suvs, we cheat on our spouses, taxes, speed on the freeway, take an hour lunch when 30 minutes is o.k. (yeah, i know..i'm not seeing the whole picture, blind american pride!)

when i was a kid my dad would take us to Tijuana, right across the border were houses that were made of cardboard, washed away at the hint of rain, kids my age selling gum to earn money, i'd ask myself, why aren't these kids playing instead. It embarrassed me because i had a house of wood, i didn't have to hustle on the streets to make money to support my family, i had parents for that........it made me open my blind eyes to what i had in this country............i became even more blind when i realized that my uncles fought and died to keep me free and to let others have their opinions-but then again seeing is believing...

i may have discredited myself by posting such a blind, terrible, incorrect post but i think that I should have the same right that everyone else has to comment, discuss and name call.....

i really don't know if four aircraft crashed on 9/11, or 3000+ people died on that day-i was not there. but i do know that i
felt a wave of blind american pride all around me. i know i felt the human reponse to find out who did this to us and exact a measure of revenge......blind american pride????????

next time you take a look at that blind american flag think about the freedoms you reap in the shadow of it flying over your head.
change the pattern to some PISSANT country's flag, put yourself
in the shoes of some afghani/kurd/south african person and
tell me where you would rather be????? yes, we are not a perfect country, but sometimes being blind is better than seeing the whole picture.

[Paul]

   Daisylover, your comments are well reasoned. Your bunny signature is also excellent!

      Paul