I can't say I'm Sorry

[lizbud]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.

Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one.


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?

[Sophist]

Well this sounds like a smart ass answer, if I've ever hear one.


I find it very strange that you cannot understand people would be a little
emotional on the subject of animals suffering & dying in a horrible way.Let
me just say, I find your not understanding that fact to be very strange and
unsettling.

p.s. Your profile lists no animals at all, don't you have any pets?

Yes, I have previously shared pictures of my three dogs and one of my snakes. I have other pets, but haven't got around to sharing them yet (their photos, anyway). In addition, I also do rescue work, both through shelters and outside of shelters since there are none in my city that will work with reptiles.


I don't think I have ever said it was not an emotional thing or that I didn't understand being emotional about it. I simply assert that logic should be incorporated into forming deep-seated opinions, and really should be used to carry on debates.

In fact, I have repeatedly reiterated that it is a horrifying thing. I just don't think that that makes it okay to ignore the facts, or to blind yourself to the unfortunately very reasonable elements of it. There are both drawbacks and positive factors here. It provides meat, oil, elements to be used in pharmaceuticals, income, population control, and fills the bloody desire for furs for people to parade around in, which would otherwise be filled much more cruelly using farmed animals.

In addition, if everyone here is this passionate about it, then that could be a lot of energy put in to changing the worst aspects of the hunt in a reasonable way. But putting all that energy into just futily vilifying the hunters or saying that the hunt should be banned, or the tools banned, it just isn't going to help. If PETA and all their money, and lots of high-profile media outlets and celebrities who people listen to just because they are rich and famous can't accomplish that, then PT really can't hope to either.

If you want to create any sort of change or difference, you have to first understand the real motivations behind this hunt. It isn't 100% for money and sickos getting their jollies. You have to understand that, and choose your battles carefully and logically, and try to lobby for change in the areas that make sense and are likely to actually be listened to.

Just out of curiousity, I have actually researched this a lot and written letters and recieved responses from several organizations involved in Canada on both sides trying to understand how I can influence this and the areas it is most needed in, and the ways in which to accomplish it... how many of the people who are so quick to attack me for approaching this rationally have done anything but rant on PT about it? I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume none of you have done anything else, but I would really like to know how you have tried, and what response you got, if any.

I have never said the seal hunt was ok, a perfect little system with no problems, no moral uncertainties, nothing but rainbows and butterflies... I am an animal lover despite insinuations to the contrary. I do work to help animals around me, and I try to find ways to work on problems like this. And to be perfectly honest, the people who come out swinging and raving based only on emotions, spreading more ugliness, with no idea of any of the inter-connected problems make the problems a lot worse, because they get people sincerely trying to work out the best compromises branded as crazy animal nuts also, and they make those in positions to effect change less and less inclined to listen.

If you don't like the hunt, do something about it. But be smart and somewhat rational about it. Weigh at least a little bit of human interest in with the animal's interest. Listen to your own arguments and really think about whether or not someone using your words and reasoning could convince you of something you weren't certain about. Don't just sit here and try to make me agree with you because it makes you feel like you've made a difference and done the right thing.

Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have.

Well, as I pretty much said in my first post, people think that not being hate-filled about this makes me a bad animal lover. Oh, well. I am confident in what I do for animals, and how I feel about animals. That is good enough to give me peace of mind about the issue. So to everyone discussing karma, hinting that I don't even own pets, etc... that line of attack isn't going to work on me. I care too much about this issue to flip out. Flipping out just makes it that much easier for people to write off everything you feel and say as rubbish. I'll maintain and hope that those who have shown a somewhat open mind and a desire to learn more will study up on all aspects and come to their own well-informed conclusions.

[catlady1945]

That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.

Yes.....those hunters are real humanitarians!

[columbine]

In fact, I have repeatedly reiterated that it is a horrifying thing. I just don't think that that makes it okay to ignore the facts, or to blind yourself to the unfortunately very reasonable elements of it. There are both drawbacks and positive factors here. It provides meat, oil, elements to be used in pharmaceuticals, income, population control, and fills the bloody desire for furs for people to parade around in, which would otherwise be filled much more cruelly using farmed animals.

And, from the humans' perspective, it can mean the difference between staying in your own house and eking out a meagre but honest subsistence, or moving to the city and going on public assistance. It may not sound like a big deal to modern city-dwellers, but if you grow up in a culture whose underpinnings are the work ethic, religion, the work ethic, and the work ethic, public assistance is tantamount to pronouncing yourself morally bankrupt and functionally dead, unworthy of your family and a traitor to everything you care about.

Seals aren't endangered, except by the food shortage humans caused by unsustainable fishing. To a Newfoundlander, a seal is like a deer would be to most of us down here.

A lot of the debate is centered around outdated and outright falsified graphics & videos circulated by people like Paul Watson of the Sea Shepherd, who get extremely rich by implying that baby seals are still hunted before they're old enough to swim (or to look like a wild animal instead of a cuddly toy). It's a high-profit business, built around fleecing the overprivileged and undereducated, and unfortunate in that it discredits real environmentalists everywhere.

Love, Columbine

[Catty1]

Vegetarians wear leather shoes. It's the real world, folks.

As Sophist said - what are you actually doing to stop this? A Google search will turn up lots of government contacts.

www.gov.gc.ca

Columbine - you are right on with your last post. Few of us here have been starving and had a family to support. Our priorities would change, in that case, I am sure.

[Marigold2]

The only way to stop this is to go to the seal hunt and make a human wall around the seals. If the hunters start to club them they will have to be physically stopped by our own clubs. How many would be willing to go and do this? Thousands of people would be needed 24/7. I can't think of any other way but to actually be there and confront the killers. For that is what hunters are, they are killers. They take life. The worth of any life is up for everyones soul to pondor. One person calls it a hunt, one calls it murder. Be it dog, cat, horse, seal or even a person. One person kills another because they think that person should die or is worthless. Same with abortion. To some it is a baby to others it is nothing but a group of cells. One has to search ones soul and look into the eyes of the victim. The hunters see this as a way of life not as murder. This battle will rage on as long as people need or want animals for meat, fur..........
It is part of our life here on planet earth. Are the cows, pigs, chickens we eat treated any better. I believe they are. They aren't slowly beaten to death while they beg for mercy.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Vegetarians wear leather shoes. It's the real world, folks.

Just where do you get that information?

Most vegetarians DO NOT wear animal products. I certainly don't...

[buttercup132]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...

[Argranade]

This is so sad,

Global Warming is causing seals to drown so they should STOP this killing!

I don't wish for anyone to die but it's hard not to hate these people.

I would honestly LOVE to club them all in the head!

I don't mind those inuit's who hunt the seals for there supply of food as they have done this for YEARS!

[angelbow20]

Wow this thread has become a big argument. Yes I said SEALS only but what about the deer? What about the bunnies? What about all the other animals who stay together family like. Yes some animals abandon their babies but duh so do people. You are crazy lady...

Are you calling sophist Crazy? thats now right if you are!!!

[Catty1]

The vegetarians wearing leather shoes comment I got from a strip called Clear Blue Water. It is in the last several days.

The idea being, not ALL do, by any means. But that it is not a perfect world and there are paradoxes in life.

I also think that vegetarians are the only people who really can rightfully condemn this hunt, in that the rest of us eat animal products that have been 'processed' in a slaughterhouse, where we don't see what happens.

Can you imagine if there were as many slaughterhouse tv spots as there are for the seals? Interesting thought...

[Cataholic]

I do not eat meat for several reasons- the primary one concering the way the animals are 'slaughtered'. I do not find it humane. I have seen the videos and read the literature. I have had people remark to me, "do you think you are making any difference"? In my mind, I am.

I have also heard, but, cannot state for certain, that the leather used (excluding the exotics) in shoes/handbags, clothing (pants, skirts) is a by-product, and the animal has been killed for meat, not for the article of clothing.

Does it make a difference? It does to me, but, for the record, I am a pretty big wearer of 'pleather' shoes...just too hard on them to pay anything more than I have to.

I do not buy leather articles, nor shun them necessarily. However, as I have become more enlightened on the subject, I do find my purchases tend to be more 'humane' than not. Am I up for some award? Don't think so, but, I do strongly disagree with the argument that seal hunting, or any other species hunted by humans, is some humanitarian effort on behalf of the hunter, and that this is all just a big ol' cheap way to feed the family argument.

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing. As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

[Miss Z]

My views on hunting of any kind have got me into trouble before so I won't go into details. Lets just say I accept no excuses for killing another creature.

Sophist, I read your arguement with interest and can allow you to keep your own views, however I am not convinced about hackapicks. Sure, perhaps when used correctly they can kill a baby seal instantly, and when you think about it, that's easy to do even with a club. When the back end of the skull is smashed and the spinal cord (along with vital parts of the brain, can't remember the exact scientific name for the life of me) are damaged beyond repair. One dead seal pup.

However, who's to say these hunters hit the bullseye every time? I bet they don't even get one out of ten. It's like shooting yourself in the head, sounds simple enough, but there's actually a specific place to shoot to kill yourself instantaneously. I'm sure the sight of a pulpy, bloodied seal carcass is the evidence of a couple of misses.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.

As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

Exactly. Lets face it, no other animal purposefully culls another to 'help' it. I can hear enough excuses until I'm blue in the face, but when faced with the arguement of overpopulation, well, that's humans' fault. WE are the ones who restrict a species habitat. WE are the ones who upset ecosystems by exterminating certain predators/prey for our pleasure and creating disaster by the unnatural booms of species that follows. And WE are the ones who are going to have to find a better solution than just mindless killing.

And yup, I'm vegetarian too. Don't quite know how vegetarianism got into this matter, but oh well.

[lizbud]

Your last post is much to long to quote entirely, but would like to
respond to this paragraph,

"Although if you'd really like to continue here, I would be more than happy to do so. When I am sincerely interested in an issue, I never tire of it. I would love any facts, figures, or expert opinions you can provide me that refute my arguments. Any new or convincing argument that I have to work into my view will only make my next letter to Canada, my local newspaper or underground 'zine that much more thought out and complete, so please share anything you have. "

I really would like to see & read any links or references you have used to
base your opinions on, so please enlighten me.Post any links to info you
have. Thanks.

[Puckstop31]

Ain't nothin' sporty about killing.

You obviously have never been Wild Turkey hunting...

But....

As I have said other times, when someone tells me they 'hunt', I have an immediate mind change about that person. Is that right? Is that judgmental? Absolutely. Is it my 'right'? Absolutely. Hey, if that person has a right to kill an animal with a gun, I get the right to dislike the act and the actor.

I applaude you for being one of the few people I know who have a anti-hunting view that are willing to say this.