He-larry-ass

[lizbud]

Since the hijacking seems to be the theme now, I'll jump in too...

I don't mean to speak for Liz, but I don't think she was trying to ask PCB specifically why "those people thought that way"., but more , is there a known history within the faith where these two groups do not get along.

In a less violent Christian example, Baptists and Catholic have very different even thought they are both Chrisitian faiths, espically when it comes to salvation. Although I am not Bastist, I have basic understanding of what these differences are and could do a basic overview. That isn't to say I could explain the thoughts of every person in either religion, but I think that is more onthe level of understanding Liz was looking for.

Thanks Amy. That's exactly what I had in mind. I really didn't think my
post was that unintelligible, but misinterpretations happen. The differences
in the christan faith is a great example. Liz.

[Cataholic]

Alrighty now, folks! I love hijacking. It is always (well, usually) more interesting than the OP! And, since I was the OP, I can insult me, right?

As to the religion thingy, I want to add something. I was finishing up a David Baldacci book last night, and I can't remember the name. Anyhow, it involved a plot to kidnap the US president, and it was done by a team of claimed muslims/Islamics and some people here in the US.

That made me ponder something. In the last decade or so, I am not familar with "Christian" or "Jewish" terrorists groups taking out other "Christian" or "Jewish" (or Baptist, methos, luthers, etc) groups. BUT, I do see to have some recollection of Muslim or Islamic groups taking out other religious/government groups. And, I wonder why? I have the mind that it is more because of the extremist position this faith/religion/culture takes than anything else. I don't understand why it is done with the blessing/non stance/eye shutting action by, supposedly, the larger group that believes this is wrong. "This isn't what Allah meant" isn't good enough for me.

I know there are oddballs of all religions/faiths/cultures. But, this seems to be a significant group of people doing this sort of thing.

I 'blame' Islam because it IS Islam. That is what these terrorist groups state. These people aren't Catholics, are they? No, they are Islamic terrorist groups.

[lbaker]

Joh, you may get into trouble for that but I must agree ~ sadly enough. The Crusades had enough of that to disgust the world forever, how long before the "other" "good" Islam leaders stand up and say "ENOUGH!!" ?

[Cataholic]

Joh, you may get into trouble for that but I must agree ~ sadly enough.

No kidding. Sheesh.

I would hope anyone reading my post would recognize that I have nothing but the utmost respect and love for PCB, and do not include her in my statement. She is one of the least violent, most loving people I have 'met'.

[lbaker]

I'm sure that's very clear to all, including Pops

[K9soul]

I'm sure that's very clear to all, including Pops

Well I may be in the minority here but it's not clear to me at all.

I 'blame' Islam because it IS Islam.

I was very shocked to read such a statement and I don't know how in the world PCB WOULDN'T feel hurt by that. Islam is her faith, her whole world centers around it. To state that terrorism and violence is because of Islam just blows my mind. I thought on PT people were always talking about never lumping one group together as a whole and making judgment, being open minded and accepting of all faiths and cultures. Can one blame Christianity for the actions of the KKK (which I consider to be a terrorist organization), or catholicism for the IRA's actions? Much of the world views America and Americans as world terrorists. It's all a matter of point of view.

I'll probably get blasted in some way for this, which is why I generally stay away from topics like this and keep my opinions to myself, but I see Pops getting hurt and jumped on in this thread (i.e. Cagney) when all she has ever done was ask questions when she didn't understand something and state her own opinions with conviction but without being judgmental if others felt differently. Yes her faith is very important to her but she did not tell anyone else they needed to feel the same way or believe the same way, she just stated her OWN beliefs the same way everyone else is.

I guess I've said what I want to say. Blast away .

[lbaker]

This whole thread started because of some humor that most of us found funny. That's called a sense of humor, one can laugh at what goes on around us instead of screaming and tearing our hair out. To take it and run it into personal things was never the intent. If anyone was offended they should stay out of "The Doghouse". IMO. I think some people aren't giving PCB the credit she deserves for having the strength of her convictions and respecting her for that, she doesn't need the peanut gallery, she handles herself OK. SHE didn't get rude, neither did Joh.

No "blast", just my opinion. I believe that's allowed, in The Doghouse.

[Vela]

Yeah opinions are allowed in the Doghouse but there is still no need to be rude and your "peanut gallery" comment was not necessary. You don't know how PCB felt about it and others do. SHe does stand up for her convictions and I give her plenty of credit, but I also know she's human and gets hurt feelings too when people say things that are judgemental about things she beleives in so strongly. Seems you ought to be able to disagree without being outright rude, even in the Doghouse, and since opinions are allowed here, this is mine. This thread was never meant to be harmful but it still doesn't excuse being rude.

[Kfamr]

And with the friendship that PCB and Johanna have had over the years, I'm SURE PCB knows very well how much Johanna cares for her and has never had any intent in upsetting her in any way.

It IS very clear to me as I don't think Johanna's intent towards anyone is to personally hurt them here, and especially not PCB, and I certainly hope PCB realizes that. She is HIGHLY capable of standing for herself, as we have all known her to do so.

If PCB has any problems at all with what Johanna said I hope to all that is good that she spoke with Johanna personally about that, as that's what friends do!




That said, someone with very, very strong beliefs and opinions should expect someone with differing beliefs and opinions to butt heads. Not saying anyone deserves any bashings or whatever you'd like to call it. But, they should have a heads up to what could possibly come about when their beliefs and opinions are said in public, especially being so strong.

[Cataholic]

I am at a total loss of words here. I rarely see the need to defend myself, as my opinions are my opinions, and, I am an individual quite capable of expressing them.

I continue to insist that only I know what I meant and didn't mean, and, while one could read anything they wanted into any post (and, Lord knows I have been accused many, many times of reading things into posts that apparently were not there), I still maintain that I, alone, have the 'right' to say what I did and did not intend.

I did not intend to insult PCB, personally. Having said that, I will not retract my statement about Islam. Good grief, if the only opinion everyone ever shared- whether it be 'right' or 'wrong' in another's eyes was what EVERYONE sanctioned as 'okay', there wouldn't be any discussion.

If PCB isn't responsible for ALL of Islam, then, why ever would my comments speak to her, personally? I am forbidden to voice an objection to Islam becauses of PCB? Whatever.

The internet should be a microcism of the 'real' world. In my 'real' world, one does not go around pretending not to have an opinion of something, lest it offend another. I wasn't rude in my post, and anyone that found offence at Lbaker's comment about the 'peanut gallery' is reaching. Plain reaching.

One can always find offense. How about one extending the benefit of the doubt?

Sometimes, I think I am still in high school with all the gossiping, pm'ing, "did you see what so and so said/did..", and the people jumping on the bandwagon type garbage.

[lizbud]

The internet should be a microcism of the 'real' world. In my 'real' world, one does not go around pretending not to have an opinion of something, lest it offend another. I wasn't rude in my post, and anyone that found offence at Lbaker's comment about the 'peanut gallery' is reaching. Plain reaching.

One can always find offense. How about one extending the benefit of the doubt?

Sometimes, I think I am still in high school with all the gossiping, pm'ing, "did you see what so and so said/did..", and the people jumping on the bandwagon type garbage.

I agree with you. Nothing amazes & often irks me more than the few
who always read controversial opinions in the dog house & feign shock
and horror that someone expresses that opinion.Nobody said anything rude
or uncalled for to or about Popcorn bird. She has the ability to speak for
herself & does that very well. I, for one, always welcome her comments on
any subject.I most times think of PCB as older & more worldly wise than her
she is. My fault entirely.I love a good exchange of ideas & shared opinions.

[popcornbird]

I was not going to post here again, BUT, I feel the need to do so now.

If Johanna had said she feels those Muslims are to blame, I would have had no problem with it. She didn't say that. She said she blames Islam because it IS to blame...emphasizing on the 'is' as if what she was saying was a fact. It was NOT posted as an opinion. To state such a thing as a 'fact', especially when an individual has absolutely NO knowledge on the issue is a major 'wrong'. Its not about opinions. Its about making a completely false statement to a public group, not having ANY knowledge to back up your statement, and insisting you have the right to have your opinion.

I have always had nothing but good feelings towards Johanna, and anyone from PT who was ever close to me is a witness of that. We've always had a strong friendship. I was utterly shocked and HURT when I read her post. To say something about the actions of Muslims, that wouldn't have bothered me. To say ISLAM is the PROBLEM??? Does that bother me? It kills me. To have that coming from my FRIEND, about something that is more important to ME than my existance. If she's saying anything about ISLAM, the religion...yes it DOES speak to me personally. It is my faith. The reason I live. AND, it is always MY top priority in life. To have someone not even knowing what it is come on a public forum and make such ridiculous comments is infuriating to me, and when it is such a close friend, it hurts like heck. I will need a LONG time to get over this.

Before I leave, I must add...people on PT, particularly in the Dog House, are a bunch of hypocrites. Everytime we've had threads about homosexuality, the MOMENT anyone voices THEIR OPINION (which they have every right of posting according to the argument 'its my opinion'), everyone jumps at their throat, says 'there are gays here...they will feel hurt...blah blah blah...'. Apparently, the feelings of some people are above the feelings of others. Apparently, hurting some people is a greater crime than hurting someone else. Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy. I don't care if any of you are going to blast me for this. It is the truth, the truth, and nothing but the truth.

I guess certain people have more right to post their opinions than others. I guess its okay for people of other religions to commit the greatest of crimes, destroy entire nations...without being questioned. You people need to take your heads out of the sand, wake up and smell the coffee, and see what the reality is before opening your big mouths. We've had enough priests, Christian LEADERS in the CHURCH sexually molesting children with their own hands. Perhaps I should start saying Christianity is the problem. Know what impression that gives non-Christians about Christianity? Christian leaders molesting children. Nice. I'm not one to question a religion based on the actions of some, even if they are their leaders, because I KNOW that's not what the religion teaches. Ignorance is a MAJOR problem. I think about these things, the hypocrisy I see here constantly, the hypocrisy in the media, the hypocrisy of the nations in this world...AND...I wonder WHY???

That being said, I had to say what I had to say. I'm done with this thread.

[Cataholic]

How completely hypocritical of you. Completely. Whereas I made a VERY general statment (and who in God's name prefeces ANY thing with "this is my opinion) about Islam, you made VERY specific statments about things, here. If you go back to your first post in this thread, you are all OVER us, questioning our beliefs, insinuating that somehow we are 'less' because we laugh at something.

You talk about people here taking their heads out of the sand, that is just so funny to me. As if you somehow have this greater knowledge of life? As if.

You have EVERY right to express an opinion. But, so. do. I.

[caseysmom]

From what I have heard lots of IMAN's have molested youngs boys also, I don't think the catholics hold the market on that one.

I don't want to cause this to be any more tense than it already is PCB but it does seem like you put us in positions to defend our way of life lots of times and when you are questioned you get upset, sorry that is just what I have observed.

[Randi]

First of all ... your first post was excellent, Johanna!

I think we should all focus more on people's actions, instead of what/who they say they are. However, I must say that in recent years, we've had a lot of problems in the world with people who claim to be Muslims.