I can't say I'm Sorry

[wombat2u2004]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

[DrKym]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

[wombat2u2004]

Wom, you want it to stop? then address the underlying issues.

Sorry if my answer came off as it is just the way it is to paraphrase you. However, the emotional issues of dead seals won't abate until the fisheries are called to task to find other fishing lanes.

These men most of whom are doing a job, whether they enjoy it or not I cannot say, do not deserve to die, or for their children to grow fatherless. The seals don't deserve their fate either.

Until a balance is reached, then there will be those that wish harm and hatred upon the men that carry out the task, and those that feel it is un-needed to begin with.

The underlying issue needs to be addressed and rectified,

I must point out here Doc, that I do NOT wish death upon those who carry out this periodical butchering, nor from what I have read here on this thread does anyone else. I'm sure we just simply want this practice to end.
And as for underlying issues ???? Have I not already addressed that ????
The total waste of foodstuffs on this planet because those who produce it have not the means to distribute it amongst those who would go hungry ????
Or because it's simply uneconomical for them to do so ????
This whole practice of culling is all about money....nothing more and nothing less....so just how are we to address the underlying issue of greed ???
The fishermen compete with the seals, to see how big a catch they can get.......solution ??? The seals get more....so lets kill the seals....thats human greed in all of it's glory at work here.
If the world ran out of oil.....would oil workers just sit on a rock and scratch their heads and wait until they died ???? I think not, they'd go out and get another job.
Wom

[Cataholic]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

[catlady1945]

I cannot support the seal 'hunters'. It is inhumane, and all the argument of "they can't reason", "they die quick enough", "humans need it", just doesn't cut it for me. Kind of like saying I have the right to club to death the man lying in a coma. Heck, he can't feel it, right? Animals *deserve* dignity, respect, compassion, humane treatment. All animals. Humans *should* know better. Sadly, that little green thing gets in the way. And, I am not referring to jealousy.

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.

[sparks19]

Too true!!! I am sick of this hunt. It is unnecessary and inhumane. I know people have to make a living, and they have been doing this for years -- but come on, there ARE other ways.

I am also sick of people who hunt for "sport" - yeah, really sporting to use an assault rifle on a deer.

That deer hunt you hate so much feeds a lot of starving people..... it's not all just to have a rack to hang on the wall. Many many hunters donate their meat to charities that give it to starving families.

and it prevents a lot of deer from starving to death in the winter. YOu may think it's a load of crap.... but it's true.... deer starve to death ALL the time around here because they are SO over populated they can't find enough to eat in the winter. Especially if the summer has a drought.... nothing grows.

[Catty1]

"underlying causes"

Aside from the huge picture ones, try looking up the unemployment stats and income levels in Newfoundland.

Bleak. Very bleak.

I am not saying the seal hunt is the best solution at all. But it means money to buy food and other luxuries...

[Sophist]

What I find amazing, and I don't really mean that in a positive light, is the one or two posters in this thread that have gone to significant length to argue in favor of the "hunt". I find it sickening in its own sense.

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.

[Sophist]

Well said Buttercup !!! I completely agree with you.
As for the opinions of experts ......experts in what ????
Ohhhhhhh "" I inspected three dead baby seals and they were killed humanely, therefore in my professional opinion, the other 6 gazillion of them were killed in the same way"
What poppycock !!!!!! Experts are no different than anyone else in this world, they sell whatever they want their client to hear, for the dollar. I wonder how many fat little checks they got from fishing companies to say what they do.
We here in Australia have been exporting LIVE cattle and sheep to other countries for meat for years and years.....of course we have those experts who tell us that those livestock are killed humanely....until of course someone had the nounce to expose the fraud for what it was, and personally video'd some cretin hamstringing those beasts for his own personal pleasure.
I'm sure....they have SOME professionals culling those seals, but I'd bet my butt to a dollar, we got some real looney toon butchers out there, who just LOVE doing what they do.
But as for culling generally, I still have not been convinced that culling is necessary....I will not ever be swayed by the reply I received by our fine member Dr Goodnow (no offence Doc), to the tune of "Well thats just the way it is". Nope....not substantial enuf.
As for the argument that we NEED to cull them so they won't starve to death and die of disease and all of those other terrible things that happen to baby seals.....well why stop there ???? Let's do that to every other specie of life that exists on this planet should we ASSUME that their quality of life is compromised.......but we don't do we ???? Oh no....we don't, we only pick those specie to thin out when our purpose dictates to us that there are dollars to be made.
Wombat

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

[Sophist]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.

Actually, the harp seal pups can't be culled until after a certain molt, which isn't finished until the pups are more than a month old.

All the mothers memorize their pups scent in the first day or two, and then really only have contact with them when they need to nurse. It has been established that during the maternal care period, pups spend about 5% of their time with their mother, and then only to feed. If a pup loses its mother, it is allowed to starve by the other mothers, who will only give milk by the scent.

The mothers abandon their pups completely by the time they are two weeks old (usually by 12 days old). The females breed two weeks after giving birth, and then take off and never have anything to do with their pups again. By the time of culling, the mothers are pretty much all expecting again and long gone.

There is no paternal involvement.

Where is the 'broken family' element coming in? They migrate together to whelp and breed, and that is as much of a connection as the seals ever have with each other.

Can an animal with no apparent familial bonding, who abandons its offspring for good and has no further contact, really be asserted to experience grief over the death? There is really no evidence to support that the families would even have an awareness of the death.

These mothers molt, then leave the whelping area where the pups remain for at least a year until their next pup is ready to be born.


Don't get me wrong, I do believe animals are capable of grief. I just don't think that is likely to be the case in this scenario. Just because animals can think and feel does not mean they all think and feel exactly the same way humans do.


And lastly, if you are arguing that the seals are fathers and brothers who love each other, and are being killed and left grieving, and then say in the same breath that the hunters deserve the same... how is that not saying the hunters and/or their families deserve to die?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, I am sorry you react that way to someone for not sharing your opinion.

As far as the lengths I have gone to, well... I am sorry, but I always try to justify my positions with facts and reason. Just a little quirk of mine.


And when I see people who I think could be using their passion and energy for a lot of good if they were only better informed, I like to try to inform them if I can, or at least make them aware of other view points.


If you can provide some logical counter-arguments, instead of merely emotional ones, I'd be glad to listen and consider them.

Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

[Sophist]

Wow, you just spent the last four pages vehemently and descriptively defending baby seal clubbing. If I believed in it, I'd have to say that's pretty bad karma.

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

Karma is your counter-argument? Meh .

Humane should not be used in conjunction with killing... does that also apply to terminally ill pets being euthanized?

Have you given any thought to the logistics of your solutions? I will certainly think on it, but just out of curiousity... what land would you clear? How would you convince the seals to whelp and molt there? You realize it is a migratory species, so one area would be totally insufficient, right?

More natural predators... which predators would you boost, and how? What breeding programs, how would you limit it's impact on the predator populations extant? Do you know what a disaster trying to introduce more predators can be?

Lots of concerns with that option... plus, again, the people who use the meat, fur, oil, and pharmaceutical products are still going to find some way to meet those 'needs'. Any suggestions for them? More farmed animals? How is THAT a better option?

[columbine]

Seriously "humane" or not (which, I really feel should not be an adjective used in conjunction with killing), I think hunting is such a lazy and ignorant way to "control" an animal population. What about setting up more undisturbed habitat and introducing more natural predators?

Or even enforcing existing regulations against habitat-destroying fishing practices (bottom-dragging, fishing in spawning grounds) that net huge short-term profits but destroy the underpinnings of the fishery that would otherwise be both keeping the seals from starving and the humans from having to hunt them to feed their families?

Oh, that would cost money and keep somebody from being reelected. Forget it.

Love, Columbine

[wombat2u2004]

We DO cull a lot of other over-populated species, and for a lot of them there isn't much bank in it.

If you look at the studies, many more than three seals were inspected by each individual. Please attack the actual arguments presented, instead of making up ones that are easier to refute.

I think it is very interesting that the mere fact that they disagree with you makes people like Costeau and doctors who have dedicated their lives to animal protection and care inherently corrupt and untrustworthy.

As far as the random nut argument goes... if someone is insane enough to really want to torture animals just for thier own sick pleasure, I really don't see them buying in to the seal hunt and taking a lot of time and preparation to make the trip to go to a seal hunt policed by the people who run the hunt, the other hunters, lots of media attention, and TONS of animal rights groups. They're much more likely to pick up a free animal off of Craigslist. If you want to prevent wackos who torture animals, the seal hunt is one of the areas least deserving of your energy.


I do have to say, I agree with you about the often outrageously inhumane slaughter methods. I feel that the seal hunt is much more humane and monitired than any slaughterhouse I have ever heard of, and many experts have attested to the same thing (including Jacques Costeau). I would offer evidence, but I guess there isn't much of a point if anyone who can't be bullied into sharing your emotional take on an issue is evil.

Bullied ??? Evil ???? You're on the wrong side of the fence ol fella !!!!
Wombat

[DrKym]

"underlying causes"

Aside from the huge picture ones, try looking up the unemployment stats and income levels in Newfoundland.

Bleak. Very bleak.

I am not saying the seal hunt is the best solution at all. But it means money to buy food and other luxuries...

Candace my point is exactly that...........I have not had time to read the humane or not methods involved. However I do not feel any of these people get up saying YAY I get to kill a seal or 20 today.....................It is a job not much different fronm the people that inject our companion animals on a daily basis. I do not believe they get up and over coffee say well I am off to inject a few dogs maybe several cats great day ahead of me Love ya bye hun....................