White Shepherds

[Ceph]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad....I have heard things about how WGSD's come from a smaller gene pool, but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics. I am an equine emphasis major, and I know that the same thing applies to horses...its nature, Is the american cream draft any less of a horse because it is a different color? no, and they are beautiful horses....but I bet you that somewhere along the line they came from a recessive gene. As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs. And right now I personally think that colored GSDs have alot of problems from irresponsible breeding.

Anyway, I have a shepherd husky mix pup who I love dearly (he's actually my fathers dog at this point.) and we adopted him. I am getting ready to start looking for a WGSD puppy (female) so that next year when I have an apartment I can have her and raise her. (I have heard they are smart as whips with alot of drive, and I love that since I am highly active and a trainer - in - training.) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for breeders on the east coast....Chapparall in ohio and white timberwolf ranch in florida seemed to be the two most likley as of now...but I would looove input on this.


I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....during the winters he kinda hung around a resteraunt and played with the customers...he was very sweet.


and here is the swiss website about these dogs (in german but lots of good pics.)

http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.ch/

Thanks all

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

Maybe my comment was a little harsh, I don't think any dog is useless. I do however think there is a huge difference between a working GSD and your average dog.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad

Color doesn't make them bad

but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics.

and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters. This would show that the recessive gene was very rare in the GSD population at that time. Your odds of getting two recessive parents together was very rare, and by responsible breeders studying bloodlines and pedigrees would have a pretty good guess as how to avoid breeding to those dogs because white was not desired. Since that time, you've had a small gene pool being used for at least the past 70 years.

As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs.

If you're studying genetics you might want to go over hybrid vigor again, this has nothing to do with it. But if you wanted to add some "new" blood, no responsible breeder of GSD's is going to allow their brood bitch or proven stud to breed with a white coat. So chances are you're going to be adding more unproven bloodlines.



There are big problems with the GSD especially in america. Their showlines go back to basically two dogs brought over from Germany, but somehow I"m supposed to believe White's have a large gene pool?? They had to get those white's consistently somehow, How do you think that happened? you're into genetics, think about it.

I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....

I'm sure there are some that can work, but it's not very often. It's a consistency thing, and I still love when white breeder's claim they can do everything a "regular" GSD can do, yet have no cert's or titles to show, other than CGC, TT, TDI, etc, sorry, those are fun to do, but are a far cry from being proven as working stock.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.

...

[Ceph]

quite frankly I think that any dog can do anything else a dog could do. It drives me insane that people think that one kind of dog is better than others. A rescue dog given the right training and drive and breed type can do just as well as another dog....sometimes they cant, sometimes they can.

As far as the animals not throwing white animals for 30 years, I find that very hard to believe....and if it was the case I am willing to guess they probably didnt breed the animals throwing whites as much, thus further causing the gene to recess.

I will put down one more example from equine science that might have some part to do with this (I use horses because I know them better, and because I think fundamentally here the animals are similiar)

The American Quarter Horse Association allows only animals of solid color to be registered. They cast out the paints and the appy's even though they mat have been structurally sound...they were culled from the breeding herds. They broke off and formed their own associations (American Paint Horse Association and the FAHR). Today even when a paint or appaloosa is thrown from and QH stud and mare (it happens, though rarely), they are still not allowed to register but can register in the APHA. They are basically the same horse with different colors. Paints excell easly as well as Quarter horses, and today, the foundation breed of quarter horses have far more confirmation problems then their colored friends. Paints came from a generally smaller gene pool, but you wont find a smart QH breeder saying that paints couldnt do all the same things as a QH.

My point I suppose is not to be close minded....I love colored and White dogs all the same....I myself am going white because from everything I have read, and the breeders I have talked to (to include colored breeders) well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain.

[borzoimom]

Ceph- the Russians killed borzois for years that were not mostly white. They wanted a dog that would blend in the snow. The US did the most to bring the self colors back from oblivian..

[NicoleLJ]

Jackfrost - My breeding program is just that, Mine. My purpose for breeding is not to produce titled dogs, though that would be great if the owners decided to do that(I will even be giving rebates to those that do title their dogs in certian venues). My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose. So I could care less whether you have a problem with that or not. Sheena and Ryder are both proven dogs in all aspects for what I hope to produce and that is what matters to me.

Ceph - Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

Sorry I haven't contributed more but I have had a busy night and day with Sheena flying to meet Ryder to hopefully produce my first litter. Which we are hoping will have 3 service dog candidates in it. So keep your fingers crossed.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."

[Sophist]

FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds. Apparently, they're becoming known for having better temperaments and lasting longer health-wise than GSDs. A lot of this is no doubt due to issues in "American" GSD lines, but I found it somewhat interesting. Nicole's dogs appear to be healthy and stable and beautiful and will no doubt produce exemplary service dogs. I think that deserves at least as much respesct as excelling in herding.



Don't mean to hijack, but this thread has me wondering--- is the black GSD registerable? Didn't see it specifically faulted in the AKC guidleines like the whites and some of the dilutes... but for some reason I was thinking it wasn't anyway?

[jackfrost]

Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."

If anything i have said is untrue, i'll be the first to admit it.

I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

More drivey and more brains than my working dogs??? OK sweety, I can see i'm hurting you and your friend's feelings and you feel a need to try and get back at me. Anyone with any experience at all with working GSD's knows that is nothing but a bold faced lie. But just to let you have your time in the sun, let's say they are. But I have experience with service dogs for the disabled as well, and you know the funny thing is, they are almost exclusively looking for lower drive dogs. you must be working with an anomoly. and back to your comment again, if they're so intelligent and have so much drive, PROVE IT, don't just say it. I go to lots of trials, and see very very very few whites doing anything, let alone winning. If you indeed have a dog with more drive and more brains than a GSD, than surely it will be at the top of the podium, winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometime, but I know what this will get, more lip service, as I can tell you that in the past 50 years there has been a handful at best to even compete in these trials let alone do well. and that my dear is a fact.

[NicoleLJ]

FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds. Apparently, they're becoming known for having better temperaments and lasting longer health-wise than GSDs. A lot of this is no doubt due to issues in "American" GSD lines, but I found it somewhat interesting. Nicole's dogs appear to be healthy and stable and beautiful and will no doubt produce exemplary service dogs. I think that deserves at least as much respesct as excelling in herding.



Don't mean to hijack, but this thread has me wondering--- is the black GSD registerable? Didn't see it specifically faulted in the AKC guidleines like the whites and some of the dilutes... but for some reason I was thinking it wasn't anyway?

Thank you so much. If your dad ever wants me to put him in touch with some great WS breeders (some who have produced dogs that have gone on to do police work) please let me know.

As for blacks yes they can be registered, so can whites, and tehy can be shown through AKC and the CKC. But from what breeders have told me a black can have a harder time winning in the ring. I am not saying they can't, it is just harder. They told me it was because the black coat not only highlights the good parts but also the bad. It doesn't have any other colors to break up what the eye sees. Do I make sense?
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

[QUOTE=jackfrost]winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometimeQUOTE]

This alone shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. LOL PSD trials. That is so funny. There is no such thing as a Psychiatric Service Dog trial. lol.
Nicole

[Sophist]

Yes, you make sense. Thanks for the info.


JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?

[jackfrost]

[QUOTE=NicoleLJ]

winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometimeQUOTE]

This alone shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. LOL PSD trials. That is so funny. There is no such thing as a Psychiatric Service Dog trial. lol.
Nicole

wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMM

[borzoimom]

They dont call them PSD here either... We call them agents. ( worked in customs as a private trainer... ) It is possible she doesnt know. Each area can be different...

[NicoleLJ]

[QUOTE=jackfrost]

wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMM

PSD to me(since I am in service dogs) means Psychiatric service dogs) Service dogs for the disable is what I was talking about when it comes to my breeding program. Why would I need or want to get police dog titles on my breeding dogs when I am breeding for service dogs? Agian you make no sense. Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Nicole