Republican National Convention

[lbaker]

..if I went to your DC neighborhood to toss trash on the ground, paint graffitti, break windows and vandalize businesses....

It embarasses me to say so Richard, but if you did you unfortunately would be acting like too many of our fellow Washingtonians I truly love my city but there are more and more neighborhoods where I would never walk alone - day or night oh heavy sigh.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizzielou742
Here's hoping these are the kinds of issues GWB talks about tonight.


50 percent - Increase in out-of-pocket health care costs for workers since Bush took office.

Out-of-control health care costs are directly related to lawyers and the lawsuits being filed against the manufacturers of meds, implants and the physicians..

I get at least one commercial a week that asks "anyone who suffers from 'respiratory bladder epithelioma of the spine'
to call and find out their options on receiving compensation for their pain and suffering.

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A stainless steel screw, one that you could buy for 2-3 cents at a hardware store, averages about 80 dollars in a hospital.

Why?

Because somewhere in the past an implanted screw broke in someone's leg, had to be replaced. A lawyer stepped in and the price went from 10 dollars to 80....

I don't have a problem with people going to court against a doctor, company or hospital - I do have a problem with lawyers
going for astronomical settlements, keeping 40-50 percent of the monies and forcing the OTHER patients to pick up the monetary slack.

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Laurie,

I hear you...It's the same here in Lost Angeles. It's bad enough that we do it to ourselves, no one wants some outsiders making it any worse!

Once I was working at a side job and the guy I was with refused to clean up as we were leaving. When I asked him to help he said, "Why? I don't live here, It's not MY neighborhood."

Unfortunately too many people think that way.

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PJM,

I was sorry they talked over the musical interludes......

It was kinda neat to hear the Van Halen tune, "JUMP" the other night.....

[Edwina's Secretary]

I especially enjoyed the democrat bashing his own party... what can speak more than that

Does that make him a Flip-flopper?????

It's bad enough that we do it to ourselves, no one wants some outsiders making it any worse!

I wonder if that is what they are saying in Baghdad?????

[Soledad]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Hey soledad.

Since I answered your question with the minimum amount of smartassedness, why do you hate the current administration so much?

Now, let me say that I find problems on BOTH sides of the aisle,
But I can find some good too. It seems that some Dems are so fricking closeminded that it doesn't make any difference what the facts are.

If you are going to throw in with the protestors/demostrators
be prepared to be painted with the same brush. I am sure if I went to your D.C. neighborhood to toss trash on the ground, paint graffitti, break windows and vandalize businesses, you'd be ticked off......you'd call the same cops that I'd be punching to save you from my 'protestation'.

And because the people who put the protest together do not condone MY actions they still have to take responsibility for making it possible for a hoodlum, like me, to 'spread my message'.

I am gonna try and not be so confrontational until the election.

And I await your answer.

Wow. Can I just say, firstly, thank you so much for your very sedate response. It's refreshing!

Now, onto the big stuff.


I dislike this administration because they're a pack of incompetent liars. They've made an absolute mess of this country and this world. They've taken our good name and made us look like fools to the entire world. While I was in NZ (hardly a third world country) even NZers were disappointed and annoyed with Bush's actions. When you have an industrialized, largely Anglo-Saxon population disliking us then you know we're really in trouble.

I dislike this administration because they've cut funding to fight AIDS worldwide because they didn't want other women in other countries having abortions, ensuring that millions will continue to die a horrible death and more children will be born with the disease.

I dislike this administration because it continues to give tax breaks to the rich and squeeze the middle class while we all still struggle for work.

I dislike this administration because it's given every two-bit thug terrorist loads of ammunition to convert moderate people and create more terror and agony around the world.

I dislike this administration because there are 1 million more Americans living in poverty since Bush took office and there are still children without healthcare.

I dislike this administration because they preach Christianity on the podium but refuse to enact the teachings of Christ by showing compassion and caring for the poor and sick. They have taken a nation of true Christians and tricked them into thinking they are on their side. They only worship one God, and it looks something like this $.

I think Americans deserve better than what they are giving us and every day they are in office is an insult to what we are capable of and what we stand for.

As for the protestors, it is their right as Americans to march and assemble. And when any massive group assembles, there's going to be an effect - some litter here and there.

I'll gladly have some litter on my sidewalks so that I can have freedom of speech and the freedom to peaceful assembly. Even when it's a man holding a sign that says "God hates F@gs." Even if everything they stand for makes me sick. It's our American right and at the very least at least these people are taking a stand and DOING something. Which is a hell of a lot more than what most people do.

PS....I hear the streets of Singapore are spotless, but their human rights record is not.

[Corinna]

Excuse me but when did human rights start out weighing personal responsiblty. If we had more of the latter we wouldn't need the first( government being our parent and guardian) that ieda is the most frighting one I have ever invisioned.

[Soledad]

You think it's frightening that people aren't caned for spitting gum onto the street? I'm sorry, but as important as personal responsibility is to me, I think that's too far. It's about balance.

What do you want - streets you could lick or people being arrested and put in jail for gathering together with signs?

That's the scariest and most unAmerican idea I have ever envisioned.

Though I'm sure the British thought the same thing when all those pesky Yanks went busting up their property.

[RICHARD]

Jiminy christmas..

Now since you make those accusation about ammo aids, tax cuts and unemployment back them up with two articles, not the World According to Michael Moore.

It's fairly easy to call someone an incompetent liar....

So what happened with my two chemweps and napalm articles?

Gee,
I won't lower myself to toss out that moniker to the man who made the movie or the people that bought the idea, hook line and sinker. I like to think I don't subscribe to the knee jerk, the sky is falling hysteria...maybe I am wrong.

And I am not afraid to admit it.

Chem weps and Napalm........incompetent filmmaking and incompetent, uniformed tales.......tall tales at that.

http://www.aegis.com/news/lt/2003/LT030501.html

Here's 15 billion dollars for AIDS for the next three years..

How many tons of bullets did bill clinton sell, GB senior?
Reagan and the rest....Darling, go back into history and chheck your sources...we ain't all that perfect.

Some litter here and there yep!!!.

I'd like to see you on the other end of the sign that says "god hates f-gs", Since his freedom of speech is more important to you than his message and decorum you should have no problem doing that.......

And since you see no problem with trash on the street you shouldn't have any problem with some broken glass, hurt policemen and burned out buildings, traffic or fistfights, you didn't reply to that part of my post so I guess that's on your O.K. list.

We will try this again.......forget the chemweps and napalm.

Since you are so in tune with the political pulse of America-
Get me two articles saying BUSH sold ammo to 'two-bit thug terrorists'


Then you can look at why the healthcare industry is so out of whack.......It ain't the government suing....

Show me where it's AMERICAN to run up and down the street breaking stuff.

And if you are feeling really first amendmentish take a few pics of you holding that sign.......you know, freedom of speech.

I know I won't get any of the things that I asked for-It's far harder to get the facts on paper, let alone some nerve twitch reaction...

Get over it
The Brits got over us breaking up their stuff, as a matter of fact they were there shoulder to shoulder with us in Iraq-so were the Kiwis, Aussies, Spainards and some other folks from around the world.....



Those who live in the past
ain't prepared for the future.


And ease up on the "UnAmerican" moniker.....
It makes you seem.........UnAmerican.....

[Edwina's Secretary]

Amen Soledad, Amen!!!

and Richard....you need to let up on Soledad and the napalm....that was ME not her! Geez...check your sources!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Amen Soledad, Amen!!!

and Richard....you need to let up on Soledad and the napalm....that was ME not her! Geez...check your sources!

I did check my sources.

And I make sure who I post a wager with.

Good, now I'll take you on again....


Can you come up with some articles that validate her charges???

I'll play it straight with you too....Give me two articles that support an issue that either one of you have.


I haven't apologized for being a liar in a long time.


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The AH MUR I CUN thing to do is to sit down at a table and discuss what it is that ails us as a country. Not shout down, tear down or throw down....

And if we can't agree then we agree to disagree...

This calling people incompetent liars is so counter productive...
And if the same same words rolled off my lips I'd make sure that I wasn't being vicious, disrespectful or doing it because I have a beef with someone.

And I know that there would be at least a handful of people saying what a disrespectful jerk I was.

OF course that is freedom of speech. The ability to insult a person, place or idea...

But be prepared to be called on it..just because you have the right to make a statement doesn't mean that I don't have the right to comment, challenge or laugh about it....

The difference between my freedom of speech and yours is the way we pronounce words, the ideas behind our speech, and what we mean when we say it.......

The order doesn't matter- when I pull the trigger to shoot off my mouth, I make sure the other person is unarmed, they have the nasty habit of shooting back.

[Soledad]

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]Jiminy christmas..

Now since you make those accusation about ammo aids, tax cuts and unemployment back them up with two articles, not the World According to Michael Moore.

Amazing. When I post articles you tell me to think for myself. When I don't you tell me I'm a liar. You asked me for my opinion, not a dissertation.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]
So what happened with my two chemweps and napalm articles?

Gee, I never mentioned that. See Sara's response.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]Here's 15 billion dollars for AIDS for the next three years..

You can Google anything. I know when I did a search for W, AIDS, and funding I got this nugget:

An AIDS program that helps refugees in Africa and Asia gets its funding cut because one of the seven groups involved once worked with the United Nations, which once worked with the Chinese government, which once supported forced abortions.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]How many tons of bullets did bill clinton sell, GB senior?
Reagan and the rest....Darling, go back into history and chheck your sources...we ain't all that perfect.

It's funny that someone so intent on using metaphors and verbal tricks could misread my statement so thoroughly. I used ammunition in the metaphorical sense. His incompetence and his policies have INCREASED terrorism.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]I'd like to see you on the other end of the sign that says "god hates f-gs", Since his freedom of speech is more important to you than his message and decorum you should have no problem doing that.......

HUH? I find that message repellent, but I would have no hesitation in fighting for his right to say it. Regardless of how sickening I find it. That's called freedom of speech.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]And since you see no problem with trash on the street you shouldn't have any problem with some broken glass, hurt policemen and burned out buildings, traffic or fistfights, you didn't reply to that part of my post so I guess that's on your O.K. list.

Why would you think I'm okay with it? There's protest and then there's violent protest that becomes vandalization. What's you're point? You think I condone people breaking your property? I don't condone it but I will not live in a country that out of fear of vandalism abolishes the freedom of speech and freedom to peaceful assembly.

Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]
Then you can look at why the healthcare industry is so out of whack.......It ain't the government suing....

And it certainly ain't the politicians with the insurance companies filling their wallets making things cheap!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Amazing. When I post articles you tell me to think for myself. When I don't you tell me I'm a liar. You asked me for my opinion, not a dissertation.



An AIDS program that helps refugees in Africa and Asia gets its funding cut because one of the seven groups involved once worked with the United Nations, which once worked with the Chinese government, which once supported forced abortions.




It's funny that someone so intent on using metaphors and verbal tricks could misread my statement so thoroughly. I used ammunition in the metaphorical sense. His incompetence and his policies have INCREASED terrorism.



HUH? I find that message repellent, but I would have no hesitation in fighting for his right to say it. Regardless of how sickening I find it. That's called freedom of speech.



Why would you think I'm okay with it? There's protest and then there's violent protest that becomes vandalization. What's you're point? You think I condone people breaking your property? I don't condone it but I will not live in a country that out of fear of vandalism abolishes the freedom of speech and freedom to peaceful assembly.




And it certainly ain't the politicians with the insurance companies filling their wallets making things cheap!

I think I'll apologize for calling you a liar.....

If you can prove I said it..

15 billion in AIDS money over 5 years is way too little to be spending.....let's bump it up to 30 and watch the tears flow.....someone will bitch that we are spending too much....


Metaphorical ammo kills metaphorical people....I told you I'd talk straight and now you come across with the bells and whistles, and you still can't come up with two articles...,.


An opinion without a firm foundation is just.......an opinion..


HUH? did I stutter?? IF you support free speech hold up the sign.
I mean you find the message repugnant but you refuse to stand by the gay basher and his freedom of speech..

Sometimes you have to sacrifice your core beliefs to make sure the message gets out. That may be a stretch for people who believe in the freedom to say something, but aren't willing to put their biases aside.........

I admire people who are willing to take that chance...
And I do admire the demonstrators.....anyone with time to go to New York and get punked by the cops rates a big number one in my book.....I wish I could tell my boss I'm going to New York to get arrested! Yippee!!

We once worked with the chinese government who ok'ed abortions.....

We once worked with the Iraq government and they killed the Kurds....we waltzed into Iraq and kicked Saddam's heiney into the dirt and everyone's pissed off about that.....same difference. should we go anywhere and kick some tushie, everyone will be upset and protesting and eff the government!!!!


Again, I asked you to show your work and you give me a snippet of china and abortions..........Isn't the Dem response to take care of the homefront???

So why worry about china and abortions???.....hands off...... that's THEIR business and their culture. Why should we be pushing american values on them. What did they do to derserve that????

It's the same arguement you have about Iraq......
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Why would you think I'm okay with it? There's protest and then there's violent protest that becomes vandalization. What's you're point? You think I condone people breaking your property? I don't condone it but I will not live in a country that out of fear of vandalism abolishes the freedom of speech and freedom to peaceful assembly.
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fear of vandalism abolishes the freedom of speech.....

My point?
You made it for me......YOU don't agree with some hijinks but some vandalism is OK as long as it does not interfere with FOS...

I don't give a rat's arse about demostrations, take out a permit,
pay insurance and have some responsible people in charge and ready to pony up with the costs of the police, fire and clean up personnel....

Or is it too much to ask for people acting like animals, shouting slogans, littering and generally being a nusiance to be a little more responsible for their activities???

My point is about being responsible in what you do, say and how you act....I laugh when I hear the candidates and their cronies cry about the 527 campaigns and the slurs that people shoot back and forth....

I looked for the line where I called you a liar.....

Can you find it for me so I can apologize?

[the gryphon]

Well, here we are post DNC and post RNC. The neo-conservatives will still vote for Bush, the traditional republicans will vote for the republican candidate, the democrats will vote for the democrat. And millions of dollars have been blown.

People are still dying in Iraq. Afganistan is still a mess. And no one's mind has been changed. People are voting for the same guy they were voting for before the conventions.

The irony is, the candidates are virtually identical on the issues that typically face a president. We are voting on their beliefs, on our beliefs, and along party lines, not on the issues.

I can't wait til February.

[lbaker]

Well said Gryphon, I believe you are right

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by the gryphon
People are voting for the same guy they were voting for before the conventions.

Pat Paulsen is back from the dead???

[Soledad]

Not a bastian of liberal news, the Washington Post has this to say about the bile and invective that was spewed this week:

GOP Prism Distorts Some Kerry Positions

By Glenn Kessler and Dan Morgan
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, September 3, 2004; Page A01


Speakers at this week's Republican convention have relentlessly attacked John F. Kerry for statements he has made and votes he has taken in his long political career, but a number of their specific claims -- such as his votes on military programs -- are at best selective and in many cases stripped of their context, according to a review of the documentation provided by the Bush campaign.

As a senator, Kerry has long been skeptical of big-ticket weapons systems, especially when measured against rising budget deficits, and to some extent he opened himself to this line of attack when he chose to largely skip over his Senate career during his acceptance speech at the Democratic convention last month. But the barrage by Republicans at their own convention has often misportrayed statements or votes that are years, if not decades, old.

For instance:

• Kerry did not cast a series of votes against individual weapons systems, as Sen. Zell Miller (D-Ga.) suggested in a slashing convention speech in New York late Wednesday, but instead Kerry voted against a Pentagon spending package in 1990 as part of deliberations over restructuring and downsizing the military in the post-Cold War era.

• Both Vice President Cheney and Miller have said that Kerry would like to see U.S. troops deployed only at the direction of the United Nations, with Cheney noting that the remark had been made at the start of Kerry's political career. This refers to a statement made nearly 35 years ago, when Kerry gave an interview to the Harvard Crimson, 10 months after he had returned from the Vietnam War angry and disillusioned by his experiences there. (President Bush at the time was in the Air National Guard, about to earn his wings.)

• President Bush, Cheney and Miller faulted Kerry for voting against body armor for troops in Iraq. But much of the funding for body armor was added to the bill by House Democrats, not the administration, and Kerry's vote against the entire bill was rooted in a dispute with the administration over how to pay for $20 billion earmarked for reconstruction of Iraq.

In remarks prepared for delivery last night, Kerry denounced the Republican convention for its "anger and distortion" and criticized Cheney for avoiding the military draft during the Vietnam era.

Bush campaign spokesman Terry Holt defended the statements made by convention speakers, though he declined to address details beyond supplying the campaign's citations of votes. "Whether it was in the '70s, '80s or '90s, Sen. Kerry has demonstrated a general pattern of hostility to a strong national defense," Holt said.

Votes cast by lawmakers are often twisted by political opponents, and both political parties are adept at combing through legislative records to score political points. Former senator Robert J. Dole's voting record was frequently distorted by the Clinton campaign eight years ago -- as well as by his GOP rivals for the Republican nomination.

One document frequently cited by Republicans is a 350-word article in the Boston Globe, written when Kerry was lieutenant governor of Massachusetts and battling to win the Democratic nomination for senator in 1984 -- a period of soaring deficits in the wake of a huge defense buildup by President Ronald Reagan. Calling for a "strong defense," the article said, Kerry proposed to slow the rate of growth in defense spending by canceling 27 weapons systems, in part to reduce the deficit and also restore cuts Reagan had made in domestic programs.

While Cheney said Kerry opposed Reagan's "major defense initiatives," the campaign does not cite any votes against such defense programs while Reagan was president, relying instead on a campaign speech before he was elected senator.

Six years later, Kerry took part in a complex and serious debate in Congress over how to restructure the military after the Cold War.

Cheney, at the time defense secretary, had scolded Congress for keeping alive such programs as the F-14 and F-16 jet fighters that he wanted to eliminate. Miller said in his speech that Kerry had foolishly opposed both the weapons systems and would have left the military armed with "spitballs." During that same debate, President George H.W. Bush, the current president's father, proposed shutting down production of the B-2 bomber -- another weapons system cited by Miller -- and pledged to cut defense spending by 30 percent in eight years.

Though Miller recited a long list of weapons systems, Kerry did not vote against these specific weapons on the floor of the Senate during this period. Instead, he voted against an omnibus defense spending bill that would have funded all these programs; it is this vote that forms the crux of the GOP case that he "opposed" these programs.

On the Senate floor, Kerry cast his vote in terms of fiscal concerns, saying the defense bill did not "represent sound budgetary policy" in a time of "extreme budget austerity." Much like Bush's father, he singled out the B-2 bomber for specific attention, saying it is "one of the most costly, waste-ridden programs in a long history of waste, fraud and abuse scandals that have plagued Pentagon spending."

Asked why the campaign was attacking Kerry for having similar positions as Cheney, White House communications director Dan Bartlett responded: "I don't have the specifics of [when] then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney was in charge of the Pentagon, but I think we'd be more than willing to have a debate on whether Dick Cheney or John Kerry was stronger on defense."

Appearing on CNN, Miller said he had "gotten documentation on every single one of those votes that I talked about."

Cheney, in his own speech, skipped over that period, going directly from Kerry's vote against authorization for the first Persian Gulf War to the post-Sept. 11, 2001, period.

Republican documents also cite a long list of Kerry votes against various weapons systems, including the B-2 bomber. But Kerry's opposition in the 1990s often hinged on his concerns about the impact on the budget deficit of congressional efforts to add money for the plane.

"We are going to build B-2 bombers even though the Pentagon does not want the B-2 bombers, even though the Pentagon never submitted a request for the B-2 bombers," Kerry said during a budget debate in October 1995.

Kerry's vote last year against the administration's $87 billion proposal to fund troops in Iraq and pay for Iraqi reconstruction has also been the focus of Republican attacks. "My opponent and his running mate voted against this money for bullets, and fuel, and vehicles, and body armor," Bush said last night.

Kerry actually supported all those things, but as part of a different version of the bill opposed by the administration. At the time, many Republicans were uncomfortable with the administration's plans and the White House had to threaten a veto against the congressional version to bring reluctant lawmakers in line.

In a floor statement explaining his vote, Kerry said he favored the $67 billion for the troops on the ground -- "I support our troops in Iraq and their mission" -- but faulted the administration's $20 billion request for reconstruction. He complained that administration "has only given us a set of goals and vague timetables, not a detailed plan."

Yesterday, the State Department said that only $1 billion of that money has been spent in the 11 months since the bill was passed.