Ugh... WTF????

**catnapper** · 02-24-2004, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I tried not to respond but couldn't do it. I have no strong feelings about the issue of gay marriages, but I do have strong feelings about facts so....

at this time the US Constitution says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about marriage or marriage being between a man and a woman. Nothing, nada, nil.

Does a homosexual couple enjoy the sames rights as a married heterosexual couple? NO. I am married. If I or my husband becomes incapacitated we have the right to visit each other in the hospital, make decisions about the care of each other. A gay couple does not.

My husband and I file a joint tax return and enjoy tax benefits as a result.

Our employers can offer us spousal coverage on medical, dental, etc. benefits. IF an employer offers such coverage to the partner of a gay employee, it is taxable income to the employee.

If I or my husband die without a will, there are rules that govern the estate and enable us to inherit with minimal effort. Not so if we were not married.

The issue is what is the definition of marriage? Is it like a corporation -- that is establishing a legal entity -- or a religious ceremony? or some combination of both? And what is the governments role regarding marriage?

Rather than react from a religious or emotional perspective I would like to see a debate on the definition of a marriage.

Beautifully said!

**Tonya** · 02-24-2004, 09:24 PM

BTW, I am a Christian, as well as most of my family. None of us have a problem with homosexuality. I don't think it is anyone's place to judge. IF homosexuality is a sin, I will leave that between God and the people. I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.

**trayi52** · 02-24-2004, 09:33 PM

I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.

Well said Tonya!

**cloverfdx** · 02-24-2004, 09:40 PM

Well said Tonya

Not able to comment at the moment but will do so later.

**micki76** · 02-24-2004, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by kevinrats
Ahh yes. Another Christian hating thread. How original.

First off, don't give me this. Did you know that Muslims, Hindus and all other religions also condemn gay marriage? Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage? Hmmm...could there be a reason for that? But, wait, let's just blame all christians okay? It's easier that way. And it's very original.

Bush is not changing the constitution. The constitution has always defined marriage as a bond between a man and a woman. Always.

This is honestly way overplayed.

Just in case this was directed at me, since I brought up the Christianity issues, this is what I said:

Originally posted by micki76
I'll tell you what my fanatically Christian in-laws say. They say it's a sin. But then I point out that so is adultery, drinking (to them), so is envy, cussing in their book will send you straight to hell. LMAO. ( They just love me BTW ) None of which require a constitutional amendment. I am a Christian, too. Just a different (read: more tolerant, as Jesus wants us to be) Christian than they are.

I personally think that if two consenting adults can find love, then more power to them! Who the hell cares if they're the same sex, different sexes or two hermaphrodites? Jeez!!

Notice that I'm a Christian too?

Weird for me to start a self hating thread, huh?

**tikeyas_mom** · 02-24-2004, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Tonya
BTW, I am a Christian, as well as most of my family. None of us have a problem with homosexuality. I don't think it is anyone's place to judge. IF homosexuality is a sin, I will leave that between God and the people. I'd much rather discover that my son is gay then that he's commited violent crimes, used drugs, etc...If a person's biggest sin is loving another...then they've done pretty dang good.

my family is the same way tonya.. my parents dont agree with same sex marriges though.. i am kinda iffy about it.. but i dont have a prob with same sex couples.

**Fox-Gal** · 02-25-2004, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

Does a homosexual couple enjoy the sames rights as a married heterosexual couple? NO. I am married. If I or my husband becomes incapacitated we have the right to visit each other in the hospital, make decisions about the care of each other. A gay couple does not.

My husband and I file a joint tax return and enjoy tax benefits as a result.

Our employers can offer us spousal coverage on medical, dental, etc. benefits. IF an employer offers such coverage to the partner of a gay employee, it is taxable income to the employee.

If I or my husband die without a will, there are rules that govern the estate and enable us to inherit with minimal effort. Not so if we were not married.

This is the reason I belive they should be alowed to marry.

I have some friends, life partners for 22 years, when one them was shot in the line of duty (law officer) my friend was left with nothing for her 22 years of faithfull love. She had no rights at the hospital, they had to wait till family members flew in. There was no benefits for her, that other officers spouses recive. For 22 year she was rewarded with nothing, but the lose of her loved one. It was so hard to watch her go through this, she loved Sue as I love my husband and who's to say that she doesn't deserve the same rights, I or my husband have if one of us passed. Just because they where both female does not take away from their bond or thier 22 years as partners.

Intill I went through this with her, I would have said "Whats the big deal, just live toghter and be happy no piece of paper can make a difference" Boy was I wrong back then, that little piece of paper would have made a big difference in their lifes.

**Kfamr** · 02-25-2004, 01:33 AM

Where in the heck did that person pull "Christian Hating" out of?

I read every single post, and I did not see one person even seems as if they hated Christians.

I see nothing wrong with same sex marriages. I am offended and see something wrong with the people, like Britney and J.Lo playing marriage as if it's a game. It's not.

Honestly, i've never labeled or considered myself Gay, but if I was to fall in love with another female, no religion's beliefs, homophobes and so on are going to stop me from loving that person.

I really don't see why some religions think of it badly. If two people of the same sex want to marry, want to love eachother, how is it going to hurt them or anyone else?
It may 'break' their beliefs or break what 'God' says, but not everyone has the same beliefs. So there's no reason to stop them. Because no one's stopping them from believing in God.

**Twisterdog** · 02-25-2004, 01:37 AM

I fail to see why the heterosexual majority continues to feel so threatened by homosexuals? What is so fear-inducing or threatening about a gay couple, that the heterosexual community has to get so worked up about them?

If homosexuality is a "sin" as your religion defines it, then so be it. That is a matter that God will address on judgement day. I doubt very seriously that God needs anyone's assistance to define what is or is not a sin. There are many "sins" that do not require Constitutional amendments in this country. In addition, there is no official state religion in the USA. Separation of church and state should apply. Legislating one group's morality has never worked. Prohibition is one example.

Why would a same-sex marriage possibly have any effect on any heterosexual person in the country? How would anyone possibly be affected negatively by this? We are all only affected by our own marriages. If Mary and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No. If Steve and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No.

There are heterosexual couples making a mockery out of the word "marriage" every day. There will be same-sex couples doing the same thing. There are same-sex couples who have been loving, faithful partners for decades, and would be wonderful marriage partners. There are heterosexual couples that are the same. What's the difference, to you and me?

I would personally MUCH rather live next door to a gainfully employed, law-abiding same-sex married couple any time, than a house full of screeching white trash or a crack house.

In the past, women were not allowed to vote or own property. They had no legal rights. The Bible says this is how it should be. Thankfully, our nation's leaders were a little more open minded than that. In the past, interracial marriage was not allowed, schools were segregated, "witches" were burned at the stake. Banning same-sex marriage is the 21st century version of these dark issues. Hopefully, it won't take too terribly long to see the light.

**binka_nugget** · 02-25-2004, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Twisterdog
Why would a same-sex marriage possibly have any effect on any heterosexual person in the country? How would anyone possibly be affected negatively by this? We are all only affected by our own marriages. If Mary and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No. If Steve and John get married, does it affect you somehow? No.

There are heterosexual couples making a mockery out of the word "marriage" every day. There will be same-sex couples doing the same thing. There are same-sex couples who have been loving, faithful partners for decades, and would be wonderful marriage partners. There are heterosexual couples that are the same. What's the difference, to you and me?

Amen! Amen! Amen!

I consider myself christian although I'm not exactly 'traditional' and don't attend church regularly but I do have my beliefs and pray often. I have my own way to speak with god. With that said, I support same sex relationships/marriages. It's supposed to be a sin but god also wants you to be happy. Finding that special someone who means the world to you is hard enough. Why would you restrict them from certain things just because they've found someone else who's the same sex as them? Love is love. Marriage should be open to any couple regardless of sex. If two people are in love, why stop them from having the same privilages as same-sex couples?

**CathyBogart** · 02-25-2004, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by kevinrats
Did you also know that no culture or religion in the history of the world has condoned gay marriage?

THAT is the single biggest load of BS I have ever seen! Have you ever taken a cultural anthropology or a human sexuality class?

There are many cultures where homosexuality is accepted and/or encouraged, past AND present!

The ancient Greeks believed that humans used to be double-creatures, with four arms and four legs. The gods feared these creatures and split them in two. They said that each person spent his or her entire life earching for their other half. Guess what? Some of these were male-male, some female-female, and some female-male.

In Melanesia, homosexuality is practised ritually among the men.

I could come up with more examples with very little research if you want.

Also, homosexuality is found ALL OVER the animal kingdom. I think everyone should pick up and read "Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity", it's really informative. So many species have same-sex vourtship and lifelong pair-bonding. Two male flamingos will mate for life, build nests together, and the females in the group will lay eggs in the nests of those males for them to raise.

Homosexuality is also found in primates, canines, felines, bears, equestrians, etc. It is a perfectly natural part of life. All life.

Even if homosexuality had been taboo in ALL past and present cultures....so were female rights, in most, up until recently. Heck, some countries still treat their women like property. Don't forget that women in this country couldn't vote until ~85 years ago. Because almost every culture in the world believed men superior, does that make it true? (i'm not some crazy feminist or anything, I just thought it was a good example)

I don't hate Christians. I hate closed-minded people, or people who want to cut off other peoples' happiness over something that doesn't affect them. Someone dear to me was having trouble recently with being Catholic and also being very socially liberal. He ended up deciding that it was OK and he's happy with his decisions, which are his to work out with his deity. After all, nobody will ever agree with anything 100%. If we did, life would be boring.

**dukedogsmom** · 02-25-2004, 05:47 AM

As posted in the other thread about abortion, these were resonably calm discussions until our hostile new member arrived. I've already used the wonderful ignore feature. If more of us would use it, we could stop these people before they start.

**Tonya** · 02-25-2004, 07:44 AM

You all made great points. Very well said, Twister.

I can relate, Fox-gal. I've always had aquaintances here and there that were homosexual. It didn't matter either way for me. I would have previously said "What's the big deal."

But I've became close friends with an honest hard working couple over the past few years. They have a son (long explanation) that is 13. Over the past five years that I've been close to them, I have seen them go through so much difficulty and heartache. It really made me think and respect homosexuality so much more. I could not imagine being in love with Mike, but not being able to discuss it with my family or friends. I could not imagine having to lie at work about a make believe boyfriend so that you don't get discriminated against. I could not imagine the heartache I'd feel if my child came home from baseball practice upset because he was treated unequally since he has two mothers. I couldn't imagine having the urge to hug or kiss my husband in front of my parents, yet not doing it "out of respect for them". I totally understand why there are gay pride parades and whatnot. It's where they can feel comfortable being themselves. -Not worry about being taunted or stared at.

And those things are all trivial compared to what could happen. If tragedy were to happen, I would feel so hopeless if I couldn't make decisions for my loved one. I may not even be allowed in the hospital room because I'm not a relative. And then, if something does happen, I may be left in the cold financially. Even though we'd shared a home together for many years. The list goes on and on.

I'm probably rambling and repeating what everyone else has said, sorry. I just feel really strongly about this. All I want to see is for people to marry for true love. Not for publicity, not on impulse, not just for financial gain...just marry for good old fasion love.

**catnapper** · 02-25-2004, 08:28 AM

Everyone is so eloquent!

I remember when my ex-boss went on a trip and reutrned all tan - with a hint of gold gleam on his left hand. His partner came in that moring and I pulled him aside, I asked, "what is that I see?" They got married on vacation! I was so happy for them! They had a lot of problems with families not accepting, that they decided to throw caution aside and just "do it." I can't imagine either man with a different person. They completed each other so perfectly.

I can't imagine what life would have been like if my family didn't approve of my husband... as it was, I knew my brother and his wife didn't like him too much. That hurt, so I can't imagine what it would be like if everybody in the world felt the same way.

I also think I'm the one who spurred the Christianity Hate comment. I mentioned the people who are compelled to quote the Bible. I felt it was a good point, and would say it again. Am I Christian? You bet. Very Catholic. I will at one point today get my ashes and not feel like a hypocrite. God just wants us to love one another. It is he that is to do the judging.

And, I have never used the ignore button. I just might elect the new guy be my first. I guess he chooses the "ignorance is bliss" way of stumbling through life.