Non-primary English Speakers (EASL)

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Hey, no generalizing here about us horrid Americans! I don't think ALL Americans are ignorant. I think there is a percentage of ignorant persons in ANY country, just like there are wonderfully intelligent, insightful, educated, culturally diverse people in every country. I could base my entire opinion of France and French people on my visit to Paris (which I found quite unpleasant), but thankfully, I later visited the rural areas of France and found wonderful, friendly people there. I also saw a lot of "stupid Americans" behaving very, well, American, like the guy shouting at the French bus driver in English, thinking that if he just raised the volume, the driver would suddenly speak a second language flawlessly. I have always admired the ability of a person to speak English as a second language, no matter how thick the accent or how many errors made. I know there are some Americans who berate people for this and treat them like they are stupid, and it's extremely rude and should not represent the American people as a whole.

As far as being required to speak English when you are an American citizen - no, I guess English isn't the "official" language of this country, since the country is made up of so many ethnicities, but it seems to be the most commonly used one. If it were me, and I moved to France (ack!), I would feel the need to learn the language, even just the basics, ASAP, since the majority of the people in that country speak French, and most of them ONLY French. (It's terrifying to me to be in a different country and not understand what is going on around you, which is why I won't travel to a country where I don't speak that language. I only went to France because my sister speaks French and could translate for me.) It's too much to expect that a nation will be comprised entirely of bilingual, trilingual, or multilingual citizens - there just aren't that many extremely bright people out there, nor excellent schools in every area of a nation. Soledad mentioned that her parents couldn't learn English because of their low level of education - which is probably why a lot of Americans can't learn Spanish/French/German/Japanese etc. to accomodate and communicate clearly with immigrants. It's not because we don't WANT to welcome them; we just didn't learn a second language. I didn't expect every French citizen I encountered to speak English, any more than visitors/immigrants to this country should expect us ALL to speak their native language.

And I am EXTREMELY glad that I have been able to share my love of pets with all of the wonderful people on Pet Talk who don't live in America, and I am glad they were bright enough to learn another language and communicate so well in it, since I'm too dumb to learn one!

[Soledad]

The problem is, most people who come to America and don't speak English do so because they simply don't have the time or the resources.

Now, my grandparents' lack of education was probably an issue. However, it didn't stop my grandfather from getting his poetry published or from raising eight children. In short, they were undereducated, but far from stupid.

However, their biggest deterent for learning English was time and money. Try being a migrant farm worker and raising eight kids. See if you have the strength and energy left over to learn a second language.

It is not too much to expect that a country be bilingual for the most part. It happens all over the world. For some reason, we underestimate ourselves.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

Originally posted by Soledad
It is not too much to expect that a country be bilingual for the most part.

,unless some of it's citizens don't have the time or resources to learn the second language, because of their work or family obligations. In America, which would we choose to be the second language anyway? There are so many different people here that want their language equally represented and understood. Soledad, your family would have liked for Americans to speak the native language of the country they came from as the second language, but what about all the other immigrants to this country? If it's not too much to expect a country to be bilingual, then the country your family came from would have been bilingual, and they would have learned two languages before they got here. The question is, which two? The fact that America is not bilingual is not so much due to exclusivity and ignorance as it is to the impossibility of narrowing it down to one second language. I don't know why English is the "backup" language in so many other countries; could it be because of the wide range of the British Empire way back when? I'm not so jingoistic as to think that it's because of us Americans, that we have demanded to be accommodated globally.

Twisterdog, I agree with you on your entire post, especially on the tourism aspect - they have some of the world's most famous art treasures in the Louvre, attracting visitors from all over the globe, and yet the signs there were exclusively in French. I think in this country we try to accommodate other languages as far as multilingual or international symbol-type signs at major tourist attractions.
Oh well - my fault for not learning French, I guess. (Actually, I took 2 years of Spanish in junior high, but I didn't retain too much of the information - I never had a chance to use it much.)

[Soledad]

AllCreatures -

My point about detailing my grandparents' experiences was to indirectly point out how difficult and unrealistic it is to expect adult immigrants to learn the language, it was not to enforce your view that bilingualism is an impossibility.

If we made it a priority to educate our children so that they were bilingual at an early age (not highschool or junior high) as other countries do, we would easily see a change.

It doesn't matter what language is selected, it matters that people just get out there and do it. I think that Spanish is probably the MOST relevant to the average American.

However, my family never expected people in America to speak their language. That is not the case at all. They simply operated in circles which guaranteed them the most efficiency, which were Spanish-speaking ones. They knew that they should learn English, and they did learn basics, but they simply did not have the money to hire a tutor nor the time it takes to speak a second language fluently.

[Twisterdog]

It IS much more difficult for an adult to learn a language than it is for a child to learn a language, that's for sure! I'm amazed at these tiny children I see here ... four or five years old! ... translating what is said to them in English into Spanish for their parents.

I think requiring a second language in our school system is an excellent idea. I personally think everyone should be bilingual, no matter what country they live in. Of course, I think we should all get to choose which language we learn, not have it a requirement, made by our government.

I also don't think any country should be required or feel obligated to teach a parallel school curiculum to imigrants in their native tongue.

My son's father's family is Hispanic. My son speaks no Spanish whatsoever, although he will probably take it when he enter junior high. My son's father speaks no more Spanish than I do ... pertinent phrases and basic nouns and verbs. His parents speak a little more. His grandparents are fluent, but also fluent in English. His great-grandparents knows pertinent phrases and basic nouns and verbs in English, but basically speak only Spanish. I think that is common, each generation that is here speaks English better.

[Soledad]

I also don't think any country should be required or feel obligated to teach a parallel school curiculum to imigrants in their native tongue.

I'm not sure that any country IS required to do this. I don't see a problem with having bilingual teachers to help ease kids into learning English, but I haven't heard of (but wouldn't be entirely surprised) a school that is required by law to teach a parallel curriculum in a child's native language for their entire schooling lives.

That's just impractical and not desirable.

However, I do think that a smart country would invest in getting good ESL programs into their schools as immigrants are essential to economic wellbeing. When their ability to speak the most spoken language of the country is limited, so are their job opportunities.

That said, I think a lot of positive reinforcement about the importance of immigrants' native languages should exist in these programs. Too often, immigrants' desires to assimilate mean that their children lose out on their culture, as is your son's and son's father's case.

[popcornbird]

ACG&S, no one said ALL Americans are ignorant, however, a vast majority are. I know MANY Americans that aren't ignorant, but I know a lot more that are. There are deffinately ignorant people in the whole world, but there are a whole lot of ignorant people in America, no doubt.

[Twisterdog]

Too often, immigrants' desires to assimilate mean that their children lose out on their culture, as is your son's and son's father's case.

Soledad, yes, that's very true. A very rich cultural heritage is often lost. I'm actually much more interested in the Hispanic culture than my son's father is, and I'm actually the one that teaches my son what little Spanish he knows.

There are deffinately ignorant people in the whole world, but there are a whole lot of ignorant people in America, no doubt.

Popcornbird, ignorant of what? Ignorance is specific to a certain subject ... I'm very ignorant about how car engines work, someone else may be ignorant about calculus. To what are you referring when you say Americans are ignorant? Ignorant of other cultures? Other languages?

[popcornbird]

Ignorant of other cultures and religions and what's going on in the world. That's what I mean, not about cars and those things! LOL! Other nations are ignorant in other regards.

[Twisterdog]

Ignorant of other cultures and religions and what's going on in the world.

Oh, ok, thanks for clarifying that. I was about to get my hackles up there, thinking you meant Americans are ignorant about everything, just a bunch of rude hicks.

Yeah, we are pretty wrapped up in our own world. Not all of us, to be sure, but a good portion of us. But we're a bunch of good eggs, overall, methinks.

[popcornbird]

An example of American ignorance about other people:

Today we went to the store to return a tweezer that my mom bought yesterday because it didn't work good. We got this old racist cashier when we went to return it. He started yelling at us and saying, "WHY DO YOU WANT TO RETURN IT???? THERE"S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT? WHY????? AND WHY ARE YOU HERE SO LATE? WHY COULDN'T YOU RETURN IT IN THE MORNING???" UGH!

First of all, its none of his business what time we come to return a product. We came at the most convenient time, and that was 6:30 pm. Since when did 6:30 become late?
Second, he has no right to yell at us like he did because we wanted to return a product. We bought it, it didn't work well (our old broken one works better) and we have the full right to return it, and we ARE AMERICANS. (Even if we weren't, foreigners have the same right to return things as citizens.)
If something doesn't work right, a consumer has the full right to return a product. We just bought it yesterday, had the reciept, and that racist idiot was yelling at us like we bought it 10 years ago. Sheesh. Why did he do this? Obviously, because we "look" different, are not white, and are of a different religion. Full of ignorance. He returned it eventually but after acting like a total idiot, and he was serving the other white Americans as they are supposed to be treated. If you "looked" foreign, you would probably realize American ignorance more than you do now.

[Twisterdog]

Why did he do this? Obviously, because we "look" different, are not white, and are of a different religion. Full of ignorance.

Maybe. Or, maybe he was just having a bad day, had a headache, or got in an argument with his wife that morning?? You never know what causes people to behave as they do. I'm certainly not trying to justify his behavior in any way ... but perhaps it had nothing to do with racism at all?

If you "looked" foreign, you would probably realize American ignorance more than you do now.

That's probably very true, popcornbird, sadly.

[Ann]

Originally posted by All Creatures Great And Small
Hey, no generalizing here about us horrid Americans! I don't think ALL Americans are ignorant. I think there is a percentage of ignorant persons in ANY country, just like there are wonderfully intelligent, insightful, educated, culturally diverse people in every country.

Well, the fact is sadly that the majority of Americans are ignorant, moreso than any other country I know of.

Most Americans know nothing about the outside world, nor do they care (which is even worse). When I lived in California the most common question I got was "Where's Sweden?".

I belive that if September 11th happened in... let's say Reykjavik, I doubt anyone in the USA would have known or really cared that much, nor would they be talking about it and posting memorials years after. And yet we are all human beings and deserve to be remembered.

There was a reaserch done a while ago, concerning USA's geography. Turned out the kids in Europe did better than the kids in the USA.

Americans tend to know very little, next to nothing, about other cultures or religions nor respect them. I was called a "devil worshipper" and a "heathen" by a pastor in California because I said I found Shintoism very interesting and a better religion that Christianity.

How many Americans think about all the innocent people that died in Afghanistan in the aftermath of September 11th? Most people seem to think they are all just little Bin Laden copies and think it "suits them right" (actual quote from an American I spoke to once).

I really could go on forever...

As I posted before , I had a great time during the 2 years we lived in the USA ! But , as I read Ann's reply , something came back in my memory ! I was asked several times where Belgium was situated . One person even thought Belgium was somewhere in Russia ... !

I don't think kids get lots of geography at school in the US (I mean international geography) . Here , it is a tough subject at school . In my school , it was even required to know where EVERY country in the world was situated , its capital , etc..

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by lut

I don't think kids get lots of geography at school in the US (I mean international geography) . Here , it is a tough subject at school . In my school , it was even required to know where EVERY country in the world was situated , its capital , etc..

I was required to take a Geography class (in 9th grade) and also a World History/World Cultures class (in 10th grade). Yes, we were required to know where every country is and it's capital. And I DID know.....I'm sorry, I don't try to be "ignorant"...you can classify it is more stupidity......as I'm not intelligent enough to remember everything after 3 + years.

I tried to learn a foreign language. I took German for 2 years. I think part of it was my crappy teacher, but after 2 years I could barely speak a sentence of german, and write maybe a couple of paragraphs. I hardly remember anything now. I'm sorry that I'm too "ignorant" to learn a foreign language.

Originally posted by Twisterdog

And I agree - poor grammar, sentence structure and very bad spelling drive me crazy! I have to bite my tongue (or cross my fingers, whichever the case may be) to keep from constantly correcting them! I always wonder how these people manage to get through school without even learning the basics!! I know I make some errors, everyone does ... but some people's speech and writing are simply horrible!

I graduated from high school with a 3.9 average...I make spelling errors. In fact, I'm horrible at spelling. Once I get out of school I just well....forget. I hope my grammar isn't TOO awful, as I always hated grammar in school. I hear things people say that drive me crazy too....like double negatives, and misprouncing words like "Nucular" for "Nuclear" (I had a biology teacher who said "Nuculus" for the entire year! This was a teacher!!)

Sometimes part of the way people speak is the way they grew up. Part of this mispronunciation local. I know many people around here say "crick" for "creek," "fark" for "fork," "simular" for "similar," etc. I drive my parents nuts correcting them for "crick"....they KNOW it is wrong, that's just how they were raised saying it, so it's hard to change.

Sorry, I'm getting off of the original subject.........