rain forest

[wolf_Q]

Huh, interesting discussion we have going here. I eat meat. But of course, I grew up in a family that has always eaten meat, so it would be weird not to. My family also hunts deer and elk. I don't like hunting. I guess I just don't get (and never will) the "thrill" of chasing down some woodland creature and puting a bullet through it. But at least if my dad or brother kills a deer, we find that deer, and we eat every bit of it. I have a friend who has a family of "trophy hunters." With the dad and all her brothers, I'm sure they kill at least 5 deer/elk each year, along with a few rare critters like mountain goats, moose, bear, etc. They take the meat of the deer and elk home, but somehow I have never seen them eat deer/elk meat in my life. They have taxidermy ALL over, and I can't stand it....I *hate* taxidermy. I can't stand fur coats either. Ok so there's my views on hunting.

I respect those who are vegetarians/vegans, I just don't think I have that much will-power. I think it's true to say that God made it possible for man to eat animals, but I really think it's gone a bit too far now. The average person eats waaay too much meat in my opinion (I'm not saying this includes every individual person here). And it would definitely be better if the animals used for human purposes would be humanely treated. Believe it or not, there are still a few places that let cows graze openly in the fields all of their lives (there's plenty here in Utah) but I know that's not how it happens with all of them.

Right, and I think that if you eat vegetables you should have to fashion your own vegetable patch, that way you actually have to stalk the vegetables and they could easily die before harvest.

Ok we're getting a bit ridiculous on this "hand-made" topic here guys.....

And as far as the original topic of "rain forests" I also do not like the destruction that is happening either. It's happening everywhere though. They build houses/etc. practically any place...we have them clear up on the mountains here all over. They just built a stupid ugly golf course right up on the side of a mountain. There's no place left for the wild animals.

And I agree, that cannibalism is eating your own kind, not eating meat in general.

[Kater]

Maybe I am carrying this too far but this is a topic very near and dear to my heart. The last thing I am trying to do is offend anyone but I would like my opinion posted so I can defend my choice. I think that perhaps some people might not know the facts about humans - whether we are made omnivore or herbivore. So in response to popocornbird's rejection of my omnivore argument....

God created us humans as omnivors and saying that there is nothing to prove that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Go look at the billions of people out their in the entire world. Almost all of them eat meat AND veggies. That's proof right there. An animal that eats only meat (lion) ONLY eats meat. An animal that eats only veggies (bunnies) ONLY eats veggies. AND AN ANIMAL THAT EATS BOTH MEAT AND VEGGIES (MOST of the humans around the world) are called omnivorous, and THAT'S what we humans are. Any proof that humans are not omnivors? Again, none of you answered my question.................Why do you feed your dogs and cats meat? If they have the right to eat meat, so do we. Killing animals for food is not cruelty. We are just doing our job as part of the food chain. Animals eat us too. Animals eat animals too.

....I'd like to respond with some of Peta's well researched arguments. (These Q&A come from http://www.askcarla.com and I do not claim writing them myself!)

Animals kill other animals for food, so why shouldn’t we?

Most of the animals who kill for food could not survive if they didn’t. That is not the case for us. We are better off not eating meat. Many other animals are vegetarians, including some of our closest primate relatives. Why don’t we look to them as our example instead of to carnivores?

Aren’t humans natural carnivores?

While humans have eaten meat throughout history, there is significant evidence that we are better suited to a vegetarian diet. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to carnivores’. Human teeth are better suited to biting into vegetables, fruits, and grains than tearing through tough hides.

In addition, the health problems associated with meat consumption—a leading contributor to heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, and obesity—should be an indication that we aren’t "meant" to eat meat. In addition, humans are capable of making ethical decisions. We can get all the nutrients we need from plant sources, which means that billions of animals are unnecessarily slaughtered every year at the expense of our health and the environment.

If animals aren't meant to be eaten, why are they made of meat?

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be: If humans have hearts and brains, why don't we use them? Because if we did, we would see that animals aren't so very different from us. They clearly show affection, fear, joy, the desire to live, and more. They aren't emotion-less machines whose lives are inconvenient stages on the way to our dinner table. They are living, breathing, feeling beings who want to lead their own lives just as people do. Once we recognize this, then it's easy to turn to a diet free of decaying bits of corpses.

It's also just plain old good sense to reject a cholesterol-laden diet linked to heart disease, stroke, and many cancers and switch to healthier, delicious veggies, grains, fruits, and legumes.

Isn’t eating meat natural? It’s been going on for thousands of years. Aren’t our bodies designed for it

Actually, human bodies are better suited to a vegetarian diet. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to those of carnivores or even compared to vegetarian primates like gorillas and orangutans. Our tiny canine teeth are better suited to biting into fruits than tearing through tough hides. We have flat molars and a long digestive tract suited to a diet of vegetables, fruits, and grain. Eating meat is hazardous to our health; it contributes to heart disease, cancer, and many other health problems.

People have always eaten animal products. Why should we stop now?

Never in human history have people eaten as many animal products as we do now. Today, rich and poor can afford to eat these products, largely as a result of the cost-cutting methods used to raise "food" animals. Present-day factory farms inflict massive, large-scale suffering of a magnitude never before seen in agricultural practices. In addition, the human population is larger today than ever before. Billions of people eating meat means that billions of tons of water and grain are being diverted from the world’s poor people and fed to the livestock of the rich; the resultant billions of pounds of manure are destroying our topsoil, drinking water, and ozone layer. In addition, today we not only have medical evidence of the health benefits of a plant-based diet, we also have many easily accessible products, such as tofu, tempeh, nondairy milk, yogurt, cheese, and ice cream, and many other healthful and delicious products that make the switch to a vegan diet easy and delicious.

Can I get enough protein as a vegan?

A wealth of evidence shows that vegans need not worry about getting enough protein; if you eat a reasonably varied diet and sufficient calories, you will undoubtedly get enough protein. The average person who eats animal products eats about double the protein that his or her body needs, and there is medical evidence to show that eating too much protein can lead to serious health problems. In addition, unlike animal products, vegan foods have absolutely no cholesterol and hardly any saturated fat.

Don’t humans have to eat meat to stay healthy?

Both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the American Dietetic Association have endorsed vegetarian diets. Studies have shown that vegetarians have stronger immune systems than meat-eaters and that meat-eaters are almost twice as likely to die of heart disease, 60 percent more likely to die of cancer, and 30 percent more likely to die of other diseases. Consumption of meat and dairy products has been conclusively linked with diabetes, arthritis, osteoporosis, clogged arteries, obesity, asthma, and impotence.


I will stop here because I think you get the idea. If anyone wants any more information about becoming vegan please feel free to PM me. I'm so glad we have these forums where we can express our opinions, it is such a fundamental need!

Oh and also in terms of companion animals -- they too can be vegetarian however cats need special supplements because they are fundamentally important to their functioning (unlike humans which NEED no meat.) Here is the explanation Peta gives:

Is it safe to feed my dog or cat a vegetarian diet?

It’s likely that your cat or dog will thrive on a vegetarian diet. Studies have shown that ailments associated with meat consumption in humans, such as allergies, cancer, and arthritis, also affect our companion animals. In addition to pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics, commercial pet foods can be composed of parts of animals deemed unfit for human consumption, such as ground-up feathers and diseased flesh.

Do be especially cautious when making the transition to a vegetarian diet for your cat as cats have very specific nutritional requirements. Vitamin A, taurine, and arachidonic acid are essential and can be provided with supplements such as VegeCat by Harbingers of a New Age. For optimal health, many people also choose to supplement their cats’ diets with fresh, wholesome grains, proteins, vegetables, and essential fatty acids such as those found in flaxseed oil.

Unless they eat raw meat, some dogs require supplemental taurine and L-carnitine (available in health food stores). These amino acids can prevent dilated cardiomyopathy in breeds that are prone to the disease, such as Doberman pinschers, boxers, cocker spaniels, Dalmatians, and many large breeds.

For a smooth transition, start by mixing vegetarian food (several quality brands are available, or follow recipes found in Vegetarian Dogs by Verona re-Bow or Vegetarian Cats and Dogs by James Peden) with the meat-based food. Gradually increase the vegetarian portion and decrease the meat-based diet over one to two weeks. Most dogs’ and cats’ health improves on a vegetarian diet, but be sure to monitor your animal closely to be absolutely sure that the new diet is agreeable. If not, you may need to switch to a different brand, try supplementing commercial food with fresh whole or raw foods, or go back to the meat-based food.

[mugsy]

Kater,

I am a certified science teacher and have taken many geology/anthropology classes in college and the human tooth set up is for that of an omnivore and that's how paleontologists classify a fossil as carnivore, herbivore, or omnivore. I would never second guess your choice of being vegan or vegetarian, but those are the facts. I would also never attempt to convert my dog to a vegetarian diet since dogs ARE carnivores, but, to each his/her own. If humans were meant to be herbivores, our stomaches would be constructed differently...we would have more of a cow's or a deer's stomach (which, personally, I'm glad I don't have!lol), which would allow for the grinding up of the cellulose in plants.

I do agree that humans probably have too much meat in their diets, and should probably cut back to remain healthy.

Oh yes, and as for our nearest evolutionary cousins, the apes, they ARE omnivorious. They eat insects A LOT and insects are definitely not plants...yummy!! NOT!!! lol

But, like I said, I respect your choice and hope that you respect mine. I'm still wondering why none of our vegans have been interested in my nephew's vegan "veggie crackers."

[Andie]

I'm not gonna argue with anything said but I am going to explain myself. I was raised on a meat and potatoes type of diet. Examples: Two of my dad's aunts raised beef cows, so you can guess what I grew up eating. Living on the Mississippi River all of your life you learn to love (cat)fish. (Although I have lost my taste for fish long ago) Fried Chicken is a given when your country.

So meat eating wasn't really a big deal. It is more or less programmed into generations upon generations.

Now I don't disagree with vegitarianism but I do disagree with vegitarians who push their ways down my throat. My best friend of 15 yrs (my oldest friend) is a vegitarian and we get along just fine. Why? I respect her right to choose what she wants to be her diet and she does the same for me. So we can just hang out, have a veggie burger (our compromise), and be the goofballs that we are. Maybe that's what is needed on this thread, respect for others choices.

Lalania: I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying earlier about the hassling thing. I understand now.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Kater
With all due respect....I think there is no solid evidence suggesting humans are meant to be omnivores. What about the fact that humans can survive & thrive on a vegan diet? I think that makes eating meat and animal products wrong. But then again this is coming from a vegan. But please understand I don't mean to upset anyone or disrespect their live chocies.

Kater, I think what Mugsy was saying is that the human body is made to be omnivorous, meaning we can eat and digest both meats or veggies. But the choice is still there whether you want to eat one or the other because you have the option to get your protein or vitamins elsewhere.

In the case of some animals that need just meat (ie wolves) or just veggies (ie rabbits) to survive and are not omnivores.


If you chose not to eat meat, that is your choice and I respect you for that. I, however do eat meat, and only ask for the same respect in return.

Also, my parents hunt. We use everything we can from the deer. The meat is actually better for you than beef. (less fat) I'd rather eat them then hit them with my car and see them suffer.

Most creatures like deer have lost their natural predators. Without hunters their numbers will grow and many of them die in the winter from car collisions or starvation.

[popcornbird]

Kater, sorry, but I do not agree. Our teeth and bodies are built to consume both meat and veggies safely. As for the health thing, too much meat is bad, but meat in limites quantities isn't and can actually be good for you. As I previously said, my doctor advised me not to become vegetarian because he said meat is important in my age. Of course its a personal choice, but there are far more proofs that humans are omnivorous, than not omnivorous. We deserve the same respect as vegetarians. Its our choice and we were made to eat both. If we weren't, our bodies wouldn't accept meat, and our teeth can very well chew meat. If they couldn't, I don't think any person would be eating meat. LOL! I personally think PETA is very extreme and I have never agreed with any one of their articles that I have read.

[Soledad]

Okay. I don't think that anyone besides the original poster (who was just young and sort of uninformed) is attacking meat eaters. However, some meat-eaters are getting overly defensive.

We will all choose to eat/consume whatever we feel right about. We all have the capability to reason out why or why not we choose to consume animals, and we all have valid reasons for choosing those actions.

That said, I think PETA is a well-intentioned but misguided organisation. If you've joined PETA, I want you to answer something: Do you believe that animals have equal rights to human beings?

Think carefully about this one. Realise that equality is a very big thing. Animal welfare is a totally different concept from animal equality.

PETA is like any organisation, their going to give you information that benefits THEMSELVES. Just like I would not take information on beef's nutritious qualities from the Beef Farming Industry, I would not take information on vegetarianism/veganism from a biased organisation like PETA.

[Kater]

Mugsy! I admire teachers so much! Mucho props! Many have been instrumental in important changes in my life and I’m sure you are valuable in those same ways to your students! However, I can’t drop this topic. I really can’t. So let me just respond to the responses. But please please understand I mean no disrespect, I just enjoy a little friendly and educational banter!

I am currently in college and enrolled in a Geology class. (yay for University of Wisconsin-Madison!) I feel that paleontology is a fairly new science and a constantly changing one. Evolution is partially based on the fossil record and we all know it is incredibly incomplete and just a random sampling of earth’s story (I prefer the word story to HIStory.) I also feel that classification of species and our interpretation of their evolution is quite subjective in nature. It is based on paleontology!

The points I’d like reemphasize are:
A) Humans do not need meat to survive; they can survive & thrive without it.
B) Compared to carnivores and (true) omnivores we are poorly equipped for taking down prey! Upright, hairless, belly exposed --- we are physically helpless in comparison! But I suppose someone would argue that we have an advantage over other creatures because of our capacity for learning and intelligence. I don’t know if I buy that though..…..
C) As Peta put it “Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to carnivores’. Human teeth are better suited to biting into vegetables, fruits, and grains than tearing through tough hides.”

And for those who don’t buy my revised classification system idea:
I don’t doubt we can digest and utilize nutrients from vegetables as well as meat. Obviously we’ve got some evidence proving we can. But human society does not just accept following ones biological impulses. We have rules in place that make us “civilized” and these rules often directly contradict biology impulses – an example being the concept of monogamy. (I do understand & respect that monogamy isn’t “the law” everywhere and in every belief system, it is just one example and no one example I could choose will apply to absolutely everyone.)
Why else do we differ from other creatures that more quickly obey their biological impulses? Well, we unlike our close primate relatives and other creatures live fairly sedentary lifestyles. I can understand how a more primitive human, living before society grew food and set up permanent housing needed dense and high energy food to keep him going. But now we have extensive knowledge of health as well as the resources to provide a vegan diet to our world’s population, even as the world population continues to increase. When will we recognize that cutting out the animal product “cholesterol-laden diet linked to heart disease, stroke, and many cancers” is a step we should all take towards better health? We claim that meat is good in moderation. I don’t know many people who eat meat/cheese/eggs in moderation! Take a look at this: http://www.kde.state.ky.us/odss/nutr...id/actpyra.gif
Sorry that this is pretty blurry, maybe someone could help me find a better copy of it? And yeah, it’s true that this only applies to the US, I don’t have too much exposure to other countries eating habits. But I do know that since China has gotten more control on feeding its population they have moved towards a diet more similar to the West with more and more meat in their everyday food. (I’m very very interested in East Asian studies, BTW, if anyone speaks Mandarin! I do too!)
But I mean it’s like we have diet information but no one has the will power to eat healthy? Or very few people? Vegan diets can be just as tasty and in my opinion better! I just wish more people would give it a chance!

So I just don’t see what animal products offer that we can’t get from a vegan diet minus the cholesterol!

In reponse to....

If you've joined PETA, I want you to answer something: Do you believe that animals have equal rights to human beings?

I look forward to the day when society recognizes animals’ rights fully just as over time we’ve recognized that rights transcend ethnic/racial backgrounds as well as the genders/sexual orientations. Because I cannot help but believe “Animals are living, breathing, feeling beings who want to lead their own lives just as people do.” It almost haunts me. But someday people will finally understand what Gandhi meant what he meant when he said, “The morality of a nation can be judged by the way society treats its animals.”

Peta may be on the extreme end but I don’t think that means their scientific information is to be disregarded. They do use the information that benefits them. But that’s how scientists form hypothesis (the evidence first and the hypothesis made to fit that evidence) and how people get jobs and its just so common I don’t see what you could have against it. And it’s your job as an individual to try and hear all sides of something and then form an opinion. In my case it’s not like I’m sitting here brainwashed by what Peta says, I take it with a grain of salt. I know Peta has a bad reputation with many many people and frankly I think people are just scared of it. Who wants to hear what they don’t want to hear?

And yes obviously this thread has digressed from where it started but that is how conversation and debate unfold…….No?

But Mugsy I haven’t even heard about your nephew’s veggie crackers? What’s the story behind that?

Hmm, I tire myself when I think too hard. I think I’ll give my brain a rest before my next class.

[cturtle]

ok so it aint canabilism but its still mean!!!!!! wouldnt you agree?

[RockyRoad]

I am a vegan as well, but do not critisize my fellow human beings of being cannibals, well, unless they are. I do not critisize people who eat or do not eat meat or dairy products, it is their decision and I respect that. My parents, grandparents, and sister never leave me alone. They are constantly throwing meat on my plate and laughing and all other related things. It just annoys me. I respect them and do not say a thing about them eating meat. But when you go to junior high it is a little odd to be a vegiterian so I am critisized there as well. It is so annoying. In my opinion that is just like prejudice because people should respect who they are and not pick out what they do not like and critisize them for it. It goes back to the days of Hitler how people hated people of the Jewish faith. Well my best friend is jewish and I am catholic and I do not critisize her nor does she critisize me. Well if my family does not understand what those poor people went through because people would not respect their beliefs then I am forced to call upon them as prejudice. Thank you.

PS-Teachers rock, Mugsy.

[cturtle]

Sorry Ihaven't been on in a day and I'm kinda far behind.

[cturtle]

Yeah especially science teachers. They are so cool! (and so is science).

[RockyRoad]

Originally posted by cturtle
ok so it aint canabilism but its still mean!!!!!! wouldnt you agree?

Ummm, I do not understand why you think it is mean to eat meat Alli, unless you are talking about the rainforests being torn down. It is perfectly fine. Why just three months ago I was not a vegiterian, and I still loved animals as much as I do now. So I guess three months ago I was mean. Okay.

[RockyRoad]

Originally posted by cturtle
Yeah especially science teachers. They are so cool! (and so is science).

Speak for yourself you're not failing science lol.

[cturtle]

I was talking about the rain forest.