I can't say I'm Sorry

[Sophist]

Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping.


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/p...ian_seal_hunt/

I don't think this is a flip-flop for Doctor Goodnow from what I recall of the previous posts... she was pretty moderate on the issue. She argued, basically, that we're to blame for needing a cull, but didn't deny that one was needed.

And to be perfectly honest, I have HUGE issues with the HSUS and their credibility and concern for animals... but that is an issue for another thread. Maybe that biases me more than I am able to compensate for, but I find the information here painfully one-sided and at times very deceptively presented.

I think this link is pretty fair, and has relatively balanced information that at times is damaging to both arguments. I will try to find more that straddles the fence some.


** Oops! Forgot to add the link... here is is:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sealhunt/

[Sophist]

Now, this one may be less even-handed as it is from an organization with a vested interest, to say the least, but it has a good Q & A format that might give PTers something to think on and look in to.


http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/seal-phoque/myth_e.htm

[Sophist]

BBC article that is pretty fair, but obviously seems to agree with more of PT's viewpoint:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3618901.stm

[pitc9]

Canada insists that the cull, which is smaller than last year's, is necessary to keep seal numbers down.


I think if it is an active culling based on population and feeding availability by the numbers, lowering disease and starvation for the others, then they are doing the seals a service. Much like annual deer hunting, alligator culls, moose hunting etc.

Hope they are rescued soon and no one is seriously injured.

I might be able to go along with that.
Here in Ohio the deer population is so out of control that they are slowly and painfully starving to death and the disease is out of control and has been more and more deformation found in young deer. They have started to thin the herd in a humane way. They have extended hunting seasons and have allowed hunters to "take" a larger number of deer each season.

BUT

It's the way that the seals are killing is what is so disgusting!
Aren't they are CLUBBED to death?!
Last time I checked we no longer are Cave men and women!

[lizbud]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

[wombat2u2004]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

Yes....that is VERY true.
I was reading an article not too long ago about overfishing.....and I haven't heard of one single fisherman who has been bashed to death with an icepick.
Maybe a few fishing companies can be culled out of existence. Especially those who go for a particular form of sealife, take what they want, and throw the rest of the dead fish back into the water.
Wom

[wombat2u2004]

I might be able to go along with that.
Here in Ohio the deer population is so out of control that they are slowly and painfully starving to death and the disease is out of control and has been more and more deformation found in young deer. They have started to thin the herd in a humane way. They have extended hunting seasons and have allowed hunters to "take" a larger number of deer each season.

BUT

It's the way that the seals are killing is what is so disgusting!
Aren't they are CLUBBED to death?!
Last time I checked we no longer are Cave men and women!

And that is exactly the point Pitc9....the difference between humane and inhumane killing.
Wom

[Sophist]

Found this comment on another forum to rebut the "seals are eating all
the fish" argument. Consider this:


Yes, the fish stocks have depleted, but that's not the fault of the seals.

In fact, the seals, when not able to access enough fish, will switch to eating small squid, etc., which also eat the fish.

In essence, if you leave the seals alone and switch to different fishing lanes for a couple of years, the seal will sort out your problem for you.

Instead, the fishers stick to the same fishing lanes, fish them out, blame the seals, kill the seals, then wonder why the fish stocks are still too low.

Yes, the Dr., when she brought that up, did mention it was because WE were competing with the seals for food. If you read any of the links given, you'll see that even most staunch supporters of the hunt reject the idea that the cull is being done to protect the cod population.


And pitc9--- it's not exactly clubbing, generally speaking. It is usually large-calibar rifles and hakapiks (more like a pick-axe) that when used 'correctly' meet the guidelines for a 'humane' method of killing. In fact, a firm, well-placed blow from a hakapik should produce results pretty much comparable to the bullets fired from ships.

[lizbud]

And pitc9--- it's not exactly clubbing, generally speaking. It is usually large-calibar rifles and hakapiks (more like a pick-axe) that when used 'correctly' meet the guidelines for a 'humane' method of killing. In fact, a firm, well-placed blow from a hakapik should produce results pretty much comparable to the bullets fired from ships.

A distinction without a difference. I doubt the the baby seal cares which
object is used to bash it's head in.

[Sophist]

A distinction without a difference. I doubt the the baby seal cares which
object is used to bash it's head in.

A club and a hakapik aren't the same. I do feel there is a valid distinction.

The baby seal may not care, but I really don't think it has the cognitive ability to logically reason out the best way to die. Several teams of American and Canadian veterinarians have agreed that the hakapik qualifies as a humane method when used correctly.

In fact, if used correctly, the hakapik produces unconsciousness instantly. That is quicker than with euthanasia, which veterinarians report takes a few seconds. And death in the reports I have read typically occurs instantly or within 30 seconds of unconsciousness... well within the 90 seconds legally allotted. Euthanasia, if you read up on it, usually takes anywhere from 30 seconds to 90 seconds to produce death once the animal is unconscious and the heart and lungs have been stopped by the drug. So really, you could say the hakapik is a quicker way to go.

Either way, if the animal is rendered unsconscious, there isn't going to be a lot of suffering involved.

Rather than outlaw the hakapik because they remind you of caveman, it would help out the seals a lot more to lend your voice to ensuring that all hakapik users are properly trained.

[Sophist]

OOh, just checked the international laws (since the hunts occur in Canada, Naimibia, Russia, Greenland, Norway, other places?) and they are actually allowed 45-300 seconds to provide death and still have it be considered humane, so it looks like a properly used hakapik exceeds those standards pretty well.


Like I said, though, if you want to help the seals, don't call for the hakapik to be banned. I really don't see it being fruitful, as even the veterinarian commissions who do the studies haven't said it would be helpful or neccesary.

Instead, lend your voice to supporting the proper training, continued and expanded policing for rule-breakers, bleeding as soon as the animal is unconcscious/presumed dead to make sure it will die quickly, and the mandatory blink tests before hooking and skinning.

If you want to make a difference here, I really feel like you have to think about the problem fairly and objectively, and select goals that are reachable and will benefit the seals in important ways, even if it isn't your idea of a perfect solution, and even if it is still disturbing to for you to focus on.

[DrKym]

Is there any position on this subject that you won't support? Talk about
flip-flopping.


I really don't believe the HSUS is considered some radical group and they
have much to say on this subject. Check it out. Thanks.

http://www.hsus.org/marine_mammals/p...ian_seal_hunt/

I support the rights of the hunters to make their living, I do not agree with the method of the cull, but I am aware that the cull is necessary.
That is not flip flopping, I would hate for any of those men to lose their lives in their job.

[Sophist]

Ok, I have to ask out of curiousity to everyone who is arguing that they are against the hunt because the method of killing is inhumane... why do you feel that correctly using a hakapik or large-caliber rifle is inherently inhumane?

I have a few expert who weigh in on it's being humane, but I seriously would like to hear what it is that seems so inherently wrong about this method. It is at least as quick as a gunshot, and I feel more 'sporting' (in a way, not really sure how to say it, really) than shooting from a distant ship.

But regardless, here are some of the expert's quotes I have dredged up offa the web:

First one supporting the Canadian seal hunts, since that seems to be the only one I hear people here getting worked up about:

"The group notes that the Canadian Harp Seal Hunt is professional and highly regulated... It has the potential to serve as a model to improve humane practices and reduce animal suffering within other hunts."
---The Independent Veterinarian Working Group



And one not really in support per se, but a good point:

“The harp seal question is entirely emotional. We have to be logical. We have to aim our activity first to the endangered species... We have to be logical."
--- Jaques Cousteau



“We do not support the killing of any animals, but we do consider the slaughter of the seals in Newfoundland to be humane.”
---Trevor Scott, Executive Director of the International Society for the Protection of Animals



“As far as we are concerned the present regulations ensure that the best possible methods of humane killing are adhered to. Humane killing is not an issue.”
--- The Canadian Federation of Humane Societies


“I have examined the craniums of thousands of seal pups and I have never observed one that did not have massive hemorrhage in the brain, which is an indication that the animal was rendered unconscious and therefore incapable of feeling any pain...
Death was rapid and humane. The choice of killing method must favour the seal and not the observer."
---Dr. H.C. Roswell, DVM – Dept. of Pathology – University of Ottawa and founder of the Canadian Council on Animal Care



“The Gulf of St. Lawrence seal hunt as it is now conducted and as far as the young seals are concerned, is without a doubt one of the most humane slaughtering operations I have ever witnessed.
The greatest immorality in the seal hunting controversy has been the reckless, deliberate campaign of racial discrimination and hatred which has been deliberately fostered against the people of Newfoundland and of Canada by groups and individuals whose primary aim is to raise funds, particularly in the United States and Europe.”
---Tom Hughes, Executive Vice-President of the Ontario Humane Societies and former British Columbia SPCA executive.


“From a total of 509 animals examined at the time, there was reported to be only one other case of the animal not being rendered unconscious. This appears to be a fantastically high average of humane killing”.
---Dr. Keith Ronald – Dean of the College of biological science – university of Guelph


/// sorry, lotsa editing for typos and such.

[DrKym]

Sophist,
I have not read nor had time to go through the information, if it is as swift and humane as you are describing then I will change my view. My issue is simply with the amount of bloodshed. I hunt deer, moose and most other viable game each year, I use the most effective means of killing quickly and humanely. I have never hunted a seal, nor would I, I can only base what I know of hunting the animals I know with what I have seen in media. Therefore I am not as qualified to make a judgement just an opinion, after I read the information you have posted, may I get back with you on the method used?

[buttercup132]

Sophist and others who agree with her, you say that the hunters have families they are brothers and fathers. So are the seals. Animals grieve too. The hunters deserve to have everything done to them as they have done to the seals. That's my thought anyways.

And just for the record my post before I never said they deserved to die.