Breeder Impressions

[applesmom]

This discussion could be an extremely educational one and deserves it's own thread completely away from the New Baby thread. I'm sure we can all agree that not a single one of us wants to spoil anyone's joy over a new puppy by continuing the discussion in that thread.

Let's begin with this quote from borzoimom: "I know honey, and that is why I checked into this. You would have heard from me by now if something felt out of place. I know what to ask, how to say what, how to get the information, and I was impressed. ( that is not easy to do with me as you know..).."


Borzoimom using your research in this instance as an example; can you elaborate on the questions you asked and the "Impressive" answers that led you to feel secure about this breeder? Your response and the discussion that would most certainly follow could be a valuable tool for anyone who is looking for a healthy well adjusted pet quality puppy in the future.

[cali]

I am curious myself, I scoured every last bit I could find on this breeder, and I did not find anything at all the least bit impressive, I know full well when expressions are normal for a pug, exprssions had nothing to do with my comments in the other thread, the puppy is cute sure, and I have no problem with mismarks, but it concerned me that the parents had no titles, no apperent health certifcations, and did not not look right. as far as I am concerned nobdy has any buisness breeding if it is not to better the breed. in most cases I am against show breeding, because of my working BC background. however Pugs do not HAVE a working purpose, their lap dogs, so as far as I am concerned if your not breeding pugs to standard then your not breeding properly. the parnets of the pups are PET quality, no more and should have been spayed.

[borzoimom]

This discussion could be an extremely educational one and deserves it's own thread completely away from the New Baby thread. I'm sure we can all agree that not a single one of us wants to spoil anyone's joy over a new puppy by continuing the discussion in that thread.

Let's begin with this quote from borzoimom: "I know honey, and that is why I checked into this. You would have heard from me by now if something felt out of place. I know what to ask, how to say what, how to get the information, and I was impressed. ( that is not easy to do with me as you know..).."


Borzoimom using your research in this instance as an example; can you elaborate on the questions you asked and the "Impressive" answers that led you to feel secure about this breeder? Your response and the discussion that would most certainly follow could be a valuable tool for anyone who is looking for a healthy well adjusted pet quality puppy in the future.

No problem applesmom- I called and asked about the puppies. I asked how old the female was and the male. I asked what tests they did on them before breeding- I always listen for a pause- I got no pause and told- not rehearsed just open and honest-. I asked how many puppies were born in the litter, how many died ( none) then asked if they loose puppies in their litters- I got a quick NONE then irratated like why would you ask that? I said well pugs are known to have litters that need a C section- then I heard calm in the voice ( I think they thought I was looking for a puppy to breed) then calm in the voice and said well it can happen but we try for smaller males. We had one C section a few years back but the female only had two pups. I asked if they ever showed their dogs. They said they tried but not alot of shows in the area ( I had already checked and they only had 5 shows in a 4 month period even near where they were) then she said also with puppies coming I did not want to take them to shows.. ( fell over to me- that would have been my worries too with a litter coming- i do not go anywhere when a litter is coming- the whole pregnancy or during when they are pups under 2 shots).. Then she asked me a few questions what I wanted as they did not have any other puppies- and I fessed up that I was checking on a puppy a dear friend was looking at from them.. She giggled- and said she had not been checked out often, but loved the fact she was... Then we got more into detail- it is a pug lover- loves the breed, has two nice ones, but really not showing much because it takes 4 months out of showing and I agree with that. I asked about size, the weight of the pups at birth, shots given- and all of it fit what a caring owner that loved a breed would do... I NEVER heard wild ruckus in the back ground like a house with alot of dogs- NEVER HEARD- anything but peace in the house with the occasional puppy noise so obviously she was even sitting with the pups during our whole conversation. I asked her to say nothing to " junes" and I just wanted to check it out as they loved curly soo much! I could just hear the compassion in her voice- said hold on a few times as I could hear her dogs came first and not some lady on a phone, and I was impressed- and that is hard to do with me! Also- the pictures I got later on email- the dogs are nice looking dogs- good heads and shoulders- good topline- and nicely built- hardly poor quality breeding stock if you will. She has few respritory problems, and anyone getting this breeds knows the genetic problems in store- however- the parents are clear of this, and good characters.
It takes conversation- listening to tones of voice to your questions, but also the pauses- which means- what should I say to the listener... I heard nothing held back in responses other than when I asked about free whelp and we laughed about that as she got worried I was asking for reasons of having puppies of my own= A TOTAL RED FLAG TO ANY BREEDER TO WATCH OUT!!!! ( I didnt sell a shepherd pup once because the husband kept asking me how many puppies a shepherd could have-- you know that cold chilll you get when something is wrong??? I had it...)

[cali]

thanks for explaining that borzoimom, most of us only had access to the pages from from the webpages the parents looked bad and there were no testing or anything of the sort mentioned, the the pages alone I would not have run and not walked from this breeder.

[borzoimom]

thanks for explaining that borzoimom, most of us only had access to the pages from from the webpages the parents looked bad and there were no testing or anything of the sort mentioned, the the pages alone I would not have run and not walked from this breeder.

If you want me to check out some breeder- I have free long distance and I would be happy to do so... lol...and more thing cali- I also do not list all the testings I do either... Someone doing webpages, if not a dog person, would not know to include things ... As a dog person- I do... The non showing person sees listing tests as their dogs are sick... sounds stupid to dog people but they do... But at the same time- a website that lists tests a-z also scares me more- they have a ton of dogs... look out!

[caseysmom]

I personally have a new policy of never buying a dog again. I will only save shelter dogs, that is what is important to me.

I admit there was a time when I have paid for a dog from a breeder that was probably a byb. I took a lot of good advice from this site and now I see the error of my past ways. I think the thing for me is that every dog you buy from a breeder there is a perfectly lovely homeless dog in a shelter. That is how I feel, I feel we need to educate everyone so we can no longer have so many homeless animals. I am not pushing it down anyone's throat, that is just my feeling.

[junescrater716]

Pugs are hard to find in a shelter or if we do there is something wrong with it. So, we decided to go to a breeder.

[Giselle]

Borzoimom, not trying to be nitpicky, but just wanted to point a few weakpoints in your ideal of a good breeder.

About the whole thing about the breeder not giving a pause when you ask her a question... That's such a subjective aspect. Some people are not phone-talkers. My Peke mentor couldn't care less about phone coversations. She paused periodically and would ask you to repeat questions. It'd be worthy to note that she is a ROM kennel and has produced dozens of champions. For a lie detector, she'd probably fail. However, pausing in a phone conversation means *nothing* about the quality of the breeder and of his/her pups. For all we know, that breeder could have had a list of questions and a typed response for each! I know that for many puppy mills, this is the case.

I was also put off by the breeder's quick response "NONE" and then irritated "Why would you ask that?". To me, that sounds not only defensive but guilty. So do you see how these minute things can have multiple meanings? The fact that she *SAYS* she does (or does not do) certain things doesn't mean she actually does.

It just all seems a bit iffy at the moment =/ As well, you should have asked her why she only offers a one year contract. Crafty Pug breeders know that congenital defects can often pop up after the first year, such as luxating patellas, PRA, HD, nerve degeneration, etc. I'm still not impressed with this breeder, personally. While not everyone can take beautiful pictures, the dam's head seems leaves much to be desired (purely from the pictures on the site).

[borzoimom]

True- but I am looking for deception. Its a old government management trick I learned. .. Also like if you pause- someone will be compelled to fill in the silence- usually saying more than you would have asked.
I could not possible put all we talked about- but I hit the main frame.

[applesmom]

The trouble with that is the for-profit breeders know exactly what the public wants to hear. They've repeated their mantra so often that they know it by heart and can give their spiel without ever having to stop and draw a breath. They're also masters of preying on emotions!

My opinion on BYB such as this and puppy mills is that they don't breed to standard and it doesn't bother them in the least that millions of unwanted dogs are being put to death every year. They all consider their dogs to be special. If they'd all just stop breeding for even two years and insist on spay/neuter contracts the problem would be solved!

I met someone a couple of years ago that was breeding a miniature breed. It didn't matter to her that their bite was off a little or the sire was cryptorchid. They were such sweet dogs. She didn't think she was a BYB because she raised her dogs in the house and made sure they were well socialized, wormed and had all their shots! She was absolutely convinced that her dogs didn't need health testing as they were completely healthy otherwise.

Naturally we got off on the wrong foot when I insisted that what she was doing was wrong. The next two litters were nightmares. Some of the pups were born blind, others had bites so bad they couldn't even nurse and some were cryptorchid and others monorchid. At that point she realized I was right and had all of her dogs speutered. Now she's the one that's discouraging pet breeding and recommending that anyone that insists on breeding breed to the standard and also insisting on health testing for all dogs that are to be bred.

[mr.chiwawa]

I am with Junes the shelters out here by me dont have small dogs and i have even looked as far as VT and i found nothing. I went to a breeder for my own personal reasons but I dont regret a min of it. The women I went to have been doing it for 30 + years. If any of you are intrested in chihuahuas i do have there site. But I will only give it out to serious lookers.I WONT put it up just so some of you glorified shelter savers will find something wrong and critize her.
merry christmas
and chi hugs

[borzoimom]

IN agility. I can think of no other better.!! She came from the same place alot of us did, but she is a pro- competes all the time with OUTSTANDING scores. .. I do so hope she stays- she would be valuable to this site for sure!

[Giselle]

I am with Junes the shelters out here by me dont have small dogs and i have even looked as far as VT and i found nothing. I went to a breeder for my own personal reasons but I dont regret a min of it. The women I went to have been doing it for 30 + years. If any of you are intrested in chihuahuas i do have there site. But I will only give it out to serious lookers.I WONT put it up just so some of you glorified shelter savers will find something wrong and critize her.
merry christmas
and chi hugs

I volunteer at a city shelter (commonly referred to as the "pound" - where the most neglected dogs end up), and we have three small dogs that have been languishing in their 4'X6' kennels for three weeks. Two are terrier/chi mixes. The other is a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle mix. If you wait and search deeply, you will find a plethora of available dogs. If not, there are always people who are willing to drive a certain ways to meet you.

Secondly, experience breeding animals means nothing, nada, zilch, zip. A breeder could have been breeding for 50 years, but if she isn't breeding to better the breed (via genetic testing, proving in the ring or field, etc), she's a BYB in my book.

And lastly, we are not "glorified shelter savers". We are people who love dogs. We just don't want dogs to needlessly die.

[mr.chiwawa]

I volunteer at a city shelter (commonly referred to as the "pound" - where the most neglected dogs end up), and we have three small dogs that have been languishing in their 4'X6' kennels for three weeks. Two are terrier/chi mixes. The other is a Cocker Spaniel/Poodle mix. If you wait and search deeply, you will find a plethora of available dogs. If not, there are always people who are willing to drive a certain ways to meet you.

Secondly, experience breeding animals means nothing, nada, zilch, zip. A breeder could have been breeding for 50 years, but if she isn't breeding to better the breed (via genetic testing, proving in the ring or field, etc), she's a BYB in my book.

And lastly, we are not "glorified shelter savers". We are people who love dogs. We just don't want dogs to needlessly die.

WLL IM NOT GOING TO DIRVE ACROSS COUNRTY FOR A CHI MIX I WANTED A PURE BREED HES GOING TO SHOWS AND SUCH AND LAST I CHECKED YOU CANT HAVE MUTTS IN AN AKC SHOW. AND THATS THE EXACT REASON I WILL NEVER POST HER WEBSITE ON HERE PEOPLE ASUME THINGS ABOUT A BREEDER AND THE PERSON WHO BOUGHT FROM A BREEDER BEFORE GETTING TO KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM.

[borzoimom]

The purpose of the AKC is for the love of the pure bred dog... etc. The fact is, like my breed on number of registrations, the Borzoi is at 94 with 696 dogs registered2005 ( 2006 is not posted yet obviously), falling from the previous year 2004 of ranking number 89 with 795 dogs registered.
I am obviously in love with the breed. Its perfect for us, even the reason to wait on a list with the rescue when we got Femka. ( flying her in from Boston. Prior to that she was in the Netherlands ..)
The fact is, we have the right to have the breed that fits us- our life style, our household situation. There is no such thing as " just a dog". The breeds are different in how they approach life, how they interact with family etc. Its what works and waiting lists or not, we each love our breeds to wait for what we want, and what works in our household. To be honest- most of the breeds would make me crazy if I had to live with them. I want quiet, calm, elegance and coat. Even within the sighthounds the breeds are slightly different. I watch my 4- and they are obviously all like minded. Slightly different in approach to things- but bascially every one of them is " on the same page" here.
With the few exceptions of having one breed outside of what I have, I have noticed that having all one breed, when you add a different one, it changes the dynamics of the house. Its just easier to have all the same. At least for us. I am devoted to my dogs, and to the breed. And with the exception of the Silken Windhound later in life, when I get too old for these larger Borzois, even then- they are similar enough. I still can not imagine my life without a Borzoi in it.. I just do not see it.
Am I missing anything? Yes- I miss competing in obedience. I am adding a collie but with enough time to see that he would fit in with 4 Borzois. He has enough spunk to be a good candiate, but calm enough to not tip the applecart here. Believe it or not- it look longer to make the decission to take a different breed into the house, than it did for adding Zubin or Galina. Having the same breed to me is like Pringles pototoe chips- they all fit together. Verses a bag of different sizes. Stupid analogy yes at first glance- but that is how I have chosen to live my life.