Update on Puddy; she's gone*9/29* see post #421

[Catty1]

Sure hope Puddy will let me use the shower.

Well...start the shower with her in there! (JK)

Glad things continue to improve. Puddy will be feeling happier too!

Dr. Lee - maybe he IS burning out, simply because he has superior skills, and so many will seek him out over other vets (even in his practice). Bound to happen. Not blaming you at all - I am sure MANY have done that for very good reasons; but it may be costing him.

I hope he takes a week OFF...and not to go to a conference. You might jokingly ask him if he has been to HIS vet for a checkup lately. I am sure he will be happy to hear of Puddy's improvement.

It's good that you have another vet to check with - no one person can know or think of everything.

Have a good time at the market.

[Kirsten]

Wow, that's great that she used the litter box!! Sounds like things are indeed improving a bit! I'm also glad to hear that she ate the chicken!

Good luck for your talk with the vet tomorrow!

Kirsten

[Emeraldgreen]

Oh my gosh, what fabulous posts!! I'm so glad that your girl is improving in different ways. Who knows what it is but don't stop!! LOL How great to see that grinning smiley you posted.

In response to the post about your vet not finding this regarding Puddy's tongue, I just wanted to add that nowhere on the internet could I find this tongue/burning mouth syndrome in connection with cats, just people. But it does seem likely that if it is a symptom for people, it could certainly be one for cats too. And because so many of her other symptoms line up with a B deficiency, it makes sense. What I'm wondering though is why the levels of Vitamin B wouldn't show up on bloodwork if they were low. But in any case, from what I've read, it's safe to give and if the body doesn't need it, it can get rid of it. There is an issue with what is water soluable and what isn't and one site said that B12 is and another said it wasn't but your vet should be able to give you a clear answer.

It is so funny how little things can be so exciting but I too was cheering away in my den when I read about the drinking and the litterbox use and lack of howling. It is all such good news. And if I've been able to help, I'm so happy because you guys helped me a millions times more with Tiger and Jimmy etc.. That is the wonderful thing about PT. A place where we can share stuff and bounce ideas of each other and think about each other's pets during our day to day activities. It is neat and I don't know what I would have done without it for the past year, it helped so much.

p.s. I found some more stuff supporting the concept that what is first thought to be dementia may be a vitamin B deficiency instead. This again is from a site with regard to people but I think it's really interesting.

CHRONIC VITAMIN B DEFICIENCY

Vitamin B deficiency can sneak up on you, because it doesn’t have to create serious health problems right away. In fact, medical researchers have discovered that very often there can be no detectable signs according to scientific instrumentation, that you are experiencing a deficiency. For example, “memory impairment due to vitamin B12 deficiency can precede blood symptoms of deficiency by years. Evidence that vitamin B12 deficiency accounts for some cognition deficits in older people comes from a study that revealed abnormal short-term memory in more than two-thirds of clients with pernicious anemia…The researchers recommend that a diagnosis of senile dementia should not be made, even in the absence of anemia, until vitamin B12 status is determined biochemically.” (Hamilton, p. 476) This means that it is possible that certain mental disorders can be directly attributable to vitamin B complex deficiency, and it is easier to first start replenishing stores of vitamin B complex than to begin treating difficult mental illnesses with drugs, therapy or psychological counseling.

Since Puddy has anemia and was acting a bit demented (that sounds so mean-lol) it hopefully could mean that it may not be dementia but a side effect instead. I'm praying that this is the case.
And the highlighted 'blue' part answers my question about the blood work I guess.

Eat more vitamin B-containing foods — oats, barley, wheat bran, avocado, salmon, Brazil nuts and others.

I guess Salmon is the only thing in that list that would be appealing to a cat. I can't remember if it is one of your cats or one of Candace's that doesn't like salmon.

It took a while to create a vitamin B deficiency, so it takes a while to reverse the problem; with severe cases it can take a year or so, with milder cases it can take just a few days.

The above quotes came from this site.

[Medusa]

Well...start the shower with her in there! (JK)

Glad things continue to improve. Puddy will be feeling happier too!

Dr. Lee - maybe he IS burning out, simply because he has superior skills, and so many will seek him out over other vets (even in his practice). Bound to happen. Not blaming you at all - I am sure MANY have done that for very good reasons; but it may be costing him.

I hope he takes a week OFF...and not to go to a conference. You might jokingly ask him if he has been to HIS vet for a checkup lately. I am sure he will be happy to hear of Puddy's improvement.

It's good that you have another vet to check with - no one person can know or think of everything.


Have a good time at the market.

Yes, my son said "And why isn't your vet finding out all this stuff for you?" He said that I've spent entirely too much money to not have all the info I need from my vet. On the one hand, I can see his point. On the other hand, Dr. Lee is human like everyone else. He saw things in Puddy that other vets missed. Lara found info that he didn't find because he says "Well, the internet is good and it's bad". I can't really fault him, I guess, but I do intend to have a talk w/him tomorrow morning.

As for the shower, Puddy insisted on sitting on the edge of the tub while I showered. I was afraid she'd fall in because I like HOT showers and, after a minute or so, she jumped down and sat on the floor by the tub. But as soon as I was finished, she jumped back up. Now she's under her bed again. She ate another slice of Buddig turkey meat for breakfast, so maybe she just doesn't care much for Fancy Feast. I'll try it again tonight, though.

[Catty1]

Mary, just a couple of quotes from Lara's post:

In response to the post about your vet not finding this regarding Puddy's tongue, I just wanted to add that nowhere on the internet could I find this tongue/burning mouth syndrome in connection with cats, just people.

And from a quote she quoted :

For example, “memory impairment due to vitamin B12 deficiency can precede blood symptoms of deficiency by years.

You found Sergeline through the net - used mostly for people, though use of it in dogs and cats is on the net also. But it sounds like this Vitamin B thing isn't even mentioned in cats on the net - so even if Dr Lee was a Google hound, he would have found nothing.

Just a couple of things to bear in mind when you talk to him.

[Medusa]

Mary, just a couple of quotes from Lara's post:



And from a quote she quoted :


You found Sergeline through the net - used mostly for people, though use of it in dogs and cats is on the net also. But it sounds like this Vitamin B thing isn't even mentioned in cats on the net - so even if Dr Lee was a Google hound, he would have found nothing.

Just a couple of things to bear in mind when you talk to him.

When I Googled it, the very first link had to do w/cats and BMS but, admittedly, there wasn't much info. Apparently, a vet had written a newsletter about it, so even if it's rare, some vets do know about it. Dr. Lee is always taking classes, etc. so he should also keep up w/what's online. I don't intend to attack him; that isn't my style. I won't be confrontational. I just want him to be aware of what's out there on the net and that can be found by people astute enough to look for it. He's said to me on more than one occasion "But then, I'm old". He isn't old by any stretch. He's younger than I am. He's still my vet and he's a specialist and I'll always remember the time that he gave up precious weekend time w/his sons home from college to do emergency surgery on Puddy because I was so insistent that the other vet call him for an opinion. Rather than give his opinion, he came in and performed the surgery. Yes, Dr. Lee's the man. No worries.

[Catty1]

OK. But I still want to know if he has seen HIS vet for a good once-over! And when is the last time you took REAL time off, Young Man???

[Medusa]

OK. But I still want to know if he has seen HIS vet for a good once-over! And when is the last time you took REAL time off, Young Man???

Trust me, he takes plenty of vacation. His office mgr. told me that he and his family were in FL this week. He just took a week off not too long ago as well. He's also cut back on his hours. I don't know what I'll do if he retires. When my first vet retired, I cried buckets of tears because I had just gotten Creamsicle, my CH baby, and I was scared to death to have her spayed because she's also deaf. Well, she didn't come into heat until she was nearly 6 years old and by that time I had found Dr. Lee. My first vet is the most compassionate man I've ever met and he LOVES cats and does it ever show. When he came out of retirement, I felt all my dreams had been answered. I had Dr. Lee as a specialist and Dr. LeBeau for the every day stuff. But Dr. LeBeau retired again after only two years back in his practice. He's had a bad back w/multiple surgeries and I guess he just can't be on his feet for too long. So I cried again. But his associate, Dr. Butera, is the one who told me to give Puddy all the B vitamins and not just B12, and she gave me the syringe for free. She's very sweet and compassionate as well. So I'll be going to her more often, especially since she's only 6 minutes away and Dr. Lee is 45 minutes away w/the shortcut that I found. W/gas prices the way they are and w/a stressed out and sick kitty in the car, if I can cut my drive time down, I'll do it. But Dr. Lee knows Puddy and her history and he loves her, I can tell. His eyes crinkle up at the corners and you can't fake that. I love the guy. If he wasn't married........

[Moesha]

I've been out of town since Thursday. The place we were staying didn't have internet service. Last night I finally took my laptop to the Krystal parking lot and logged on. Of course I could only read a few threads and one of them was this one about Puddy. I told my sister and she asked me why I would want to read about such a sad situation. I couldn't explain it. I just got home tonight and am so thrilled to read the latest developments! I hope things keep improving!

[Medusa]

I've been out of town since Thursday. The place we were staying didn't have internet service. Last night I finally took my laptop to the Krystal parking lot and logged on. Of course I could only read a few threads and one of them was this one about Puddy. I told my sister and she asked me why I would want to read about such a sad situation. I couldn't explain it. I just got home tonight and am so thrilled to read the latest developments! I hope things keep improving!

Thanx, Moesha. I know, even my son who loves me and all of my cats asked "How's Puddy or should I even ask?". A couple of my friends are surprised that I didn't give up long ago. I will NEVER give up. But there will come a time when I'll have to let her go. That's totally different. PT prayers and words of encouragement mean the world to me.

[ChrisH]

Although I don't post I check every day on Puddy and you and was so happy to read of the recent steps forward she is making, may it continue so.

Prayers & positive thoughts continuing.

[Medusa]

I just cannot believe the difference in Puddy. Ok, she doesn't want to socialize yet; understandable. She's been through a lot, especially this past week. Her quality of sleep has been awful, so she needs her rest. But she ate cat chow during the night, used her litterbox and drank water out of her bowl. She still insists that I keep the water bowl in the bathtub, so I'm not sure why that is but compared to how she was last week, I don't really care.

Dr. Lee did not call me this morning; I had to call him and when he got on the phone he asked "How's our patient?" and I started right in w/the debate about the vitamin B complex and B 12. His response surprised me. Before becoming a small animal vet, he was an equine vet and he said that B 12 was regularly administered to horses to make them run faster but that he was never a proponent of it. What that has to do w/Puddy and all her symptoms, I have no idea. So I told him of the immediate change in her behavior, appetite, sleep pattern, litterbox habits, etc. since the B complex injection into her bag of fluids and he said "Oh yes, we do that here" and I said "Why was this never mentioned as an option for Puddy?" and he said "I'm just not a proponent of it. You certainly can't hurt her but I've never known it to really help". I was floored. I said "The change in her is undeniable. I'll concede that perhaps the Selegiline is kicking in and maybe the combination of both is what triggered the improvement but I'm unwilling to stop the Selegiline to find out". He said "Well, I wouldn't advise that". Sigh.

Then I asked him about Burning Mouth Syndrome and he said "Mmm hmm...." I paused, waiting for him to say something but he didn't, so I took that as meaning he didn't know what I was talking about and it wasn't my intention to challenge or corner him. I truly wanted his opinion on it or case histories or something, anything but "Mmm hmmm". I told him that I originally called him months ago because Puddy's tongue had been hanging out of her mouth and it so concerned me and we thought at that time that it may have been due to her gingivitis. Another "Mmm hmm". However, since the B complex injection, she hardly sticks her tongue out at all now. When I told him that all this info was discovered on the internet, I got his standard reply about the internet being good and bad. Now, how is all this bad, I ask you???

We finished the conversation w/him saying "I'm for what works and if you feel that the B complex is working for her, then by all means, keep it up. There are those who feel that it's effective". I replied with "Well, I'm in that camp". He chuckled and said "Ok".

After I spoke to him, I called my local vet and told her of Puddy's improvement and she even sounded surprised but said "Oh! Good!" So I'll be picking up another syringe for her subQ's today. The thing that frustrates me about her office is that they only have one person on the desk at all times. It's difficult for her to book appts., take care of incoming patients, answer calls, do computer work, etc. w/out confusion. And they're always training new people, so they never know who I am. Sometimes I have to spell my name for them repeatedly; today I had to spell it 4 times and after all that, she asked "What is this about again?" I became impatient and said "Please, can you let me speak to someone who is familiar w/my case? This is important! I know I'm not Dr. B's only patient but this is very frustrating." She offered to have someone return my call but, historically, I get the call at the end of the day and this couldn't wait. I need those vitamins today and not after they close their office. Finally, Dr. B picked up the phone. They also only have 2 vet techs there at a time, which is also another problem. They've inherited a HUGE client base from Dr. LeBeau and they're overwhelmed. I understand it and I can be patient but if it's a matter of urgency, then I have to go to Dr. Lee instead. I don't want to go to him for routine things. I love Dr. B and she's nearby but unless and until that office starts humming, I'll have to continue w/Dr. Lee for all my vet needs. However, when it comes to surgery, Dr. Lee is the man. He has an anesthesiologist there at all times and so many vet techs and people working the front desk that I've lost count. To be fair, he has a large clinic w/5 vets on staff, so maybe my comparison of the two offices is somewhat skewed.

Anyhow, the most important issue is that Puddy has improved a lot and I'm feeling hopeful for the first time in weeks. I know that she won't be w/me forever but until the time comes that I must say 'goodbye', I want her to be as comfortable and happy as possible. If it wasn't for Lara and her research, Puddy probably wouldn't be here today. I was going to make that call if she hadn't improved. The way I see it, Lara's research and many prayers from my PT friends saved Puddy's life, if only for a little while. Life is good.

ETA: She ate her Fancy Feast this morning.

[pomtzu]

What great news to read that Puddy is still making strides in the right direction.
But how frustrating that Dr. Lee can't be more consistent. If he uses the B vitamins at his clinic, I wonder why he never gave you the option of giving it a try on Puddy??? He uses it but is not a proponent of it - doesn't make sense - unless I'm missing something!
All that counts right now is Puddy - and if it's working along with her other med - then keep it up. When she makes her way in to the sun room to catch some rays, it will all be worth it!

[Medusa]

When she makes her way in to the sun room to catch some rays, it will all be worth it!

I'm w/ya on all of it but this sentence says it all, Ellie. And if she can throw in a hiss for good measure, then I'll know that my Puddy is back.

[Kirsten]

That's great that Puddy keeps improving! What a great advice it was when Emeraldgreen mentioned the B12 deficiency!!

However, Dr. Lee 's reaction is a bit strange, but most doctors don't like it when their clients do some research on their own.

Anyway, it seems to help Puddy, and that's all that counts!

(Too bad that Dr. B.'s office sounds so unorganized, she seems to be much nicer!)

Kirsten