Jail or War?

[RICHARD]

This should answer the question:

And 'Thank You' too!

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Sorry to move this into a different direction but.....

When you have an army who's men and women are going to say"Why?" everytime they get an order, you do not have an army any more.

I find that I admire our soldiers (forget the justification for the war for a second, OK?) MORE because the go to war without asking questions.

DO NOT DISCOUNT them because they do not ask "WHY?"

Elevate them because they put aside THEIR beliefs to do a job that some of us want to do, but can't - and that some of us have the courage to admit they cannot.

No war is "just" and I know that no soldier wants to go and kill anyone for s and giggles.

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Only the dead have seen the end of war.
-Plato

[Edwina's Secretary]

I was thinking about this as I am preparing for a class I will be teaching next week (it is in L.A. RICHARD...wanna come?) One event we discuss is when the US government sent Federal troops (at the request of John D. Rockefeller) to put down a strike being conducting by American workers at a mining operation in Colorado.

Shoot first...questions later?

I find that I admire our soldiers (forget the justification for the war for a second, OK?) MORE because the go to war without asking questions.

So....a solider is not responsible for his or her actions if they are "only following orders?" Wow....I get a feeling of deja vu all over again!"

[RICHARD]

I was thinking about this as I am preparing for a class I will be teaching next week (it is in L.A. RICHARD...wanna come?) One event we discuss is when the US government sent Federal troops (at the request of John D. Rockefeller) to put down a strike being conducting by American workers at a mining operation in Colorado.

Shoot first...questions later?



So....a solider is not responsible for his or her actions if they are "only following orders?" Wow....I get a feeling of deja vu all over again!"

Can I bring you an apple?


Why would they shoot mime workers??? Actually, Marcel Marceau kinda bugs me....

Whoa,
Let me look that one up before I make stupid statements???

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I think that there was a discussion about this before.

Soldiers are always told to defend themselves.
If you are shot at, you shoot back.

If people didn't take up arms no one would get killed.


Here's a bomb belt, go blow yourself up! is a little different than "defend yourself from people who are being stupid by shooting at you or blowing themselves up while they drive up to you."

I think that the simplification of "just following orders" is more dangerous that a loaded m-16...

Soldiers do have the ability to question an "unreasonable order"- I have yet to hear of any officer asking his men to do that....also I haven't heard of any elected official tell their constituents to do the same.

I have to dig into my bag of SA comebacks-sorry.........

If war is not the answer, what was the question?

[caseysmom]

I voted war because I was assuming if I went to jail that meant I had done something bad. I guess that was probably a wrong assumptions. Still I would rather be somewhere where my kids could be proud of their mom.

[Lady's Human]

ES, The use of federal troops for law enforcement is patently illegal in the United States. Posse comitatus ring a bell? However, in the past, right or wrong, we have given a pass to Officers who order their troops to fire on civilians if they were following orders from higher. We even celebrated one, and elevated him to a 5 star command, Gen. Douglas Macarthur.

ANY United States soldier who thinks that they are being given an illegal order has the right and the duty to question the order. Officers and NCO's are given classes in the law of land warfare, and are expected to enforce it. No troop does or should question every order, correctly (in most cases) assuming that their superior would not order them to commit an illegal act. When a superior gives a questionable order, it is questioned (Sir, would you please restate that? I'm not clear on what you meant?) and if the order is illegal, the NCO or senior leader present under the person issuing the order is supposed to relieve the person of duty. That is an extreme case, but that's the way the book plays out.

[Lady's Human]

If I am going to perform a task where the objective is to kill as many human beings as possible (who may have no more desire to be there than an order)

The purpose of war is NOT to kill as many human beings as possible. The purpose of war is to eliminate the enemy's will and ability to resist, which can be done with little or no killing. If war's purpose was to kill as many people as possible, all we'd need is an Air Force and a few good bombs, no army would be necessary. If all the troops have keeping them in place is an order, and they have no will to resist, then the army ceases to exist, as the Iraqis did in 1990-91 and as the italians did in the African campaign during WW2. Those are just two of many cases of mass surrender or complete mutiny.

[RICHARD]

LH,

thanks for cleaning that up. What I meant to say is that IF a CO told his command to go out and "kill everything that moves" (while it is a great movie line) it don't fly in real life.

ES,

I understand your point of view.

On Sept 12 2001 I would have gladly gone out an throttled ANYONE who was involved with Sept 11.

Iraq is a dicey place to be. There are quite a few more questions than answers.

One of the things that bug me is the question of the "exit strategy"?

Are we supposed to throw up our hands and say, "IT'S A SPLIT DECISION-
everyone go home and we'll get ready for the next one?"

We have to win-therefore we have to tough it out.

Once you start a fight with a bully, you have kick his arse, otherwise when you get up to walk away he's gonna jump on your back and kill you.....

All Chicken S AHs fight that way.

Flying airplanes into buildings and getting kids to strap on a bomb isn't really a fair fight.

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We are hamstrung by people who claim that they US has killed "hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians"


A nuke is far more cost effective and has less potential for military deaths.
We gotta play by the rules, so we send the troops into harm's way.

Any kind of war is distasteful, messy and full of atrocities-from both sides.

I can see the guys from Viet Nam being vocally 'Con-War' But, I can assure you that they would willingly bear arms again should it come down to it.

Historically, the numbers of men KIA have declined over the past century with every war that shows it's ugly face.

Does is mean that wars are getting cleaner? Smarter? Easier?

Nope, dead is dead. Two thousand is alot, 58,000 is harder to grasp, a few million it alot tougher to wrap my head around.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Those are just two of many cases of mass surrender or complete mutiny.

And how many cases are there of a whole lot of people getting killed before it was over? More than two?

I can see the guys from Viet Nam being vocally 'Con-War' But, I can assure you that they would willingly bear arms again should it come down to it.

Curious on what basis you make that statement. Are you personally familiar with every guy who fought in Viet Nam?

The question was "War or Jail". You guys are quite free to follow orders blindly. Me...I want a truthful and sound reason before I go off killing people.

[areias]

I voted jail...well, for this war. It's like the question, would you jump out of an airplane with a pararchute, if you didn't know if it worked, for a million dollars? I don't want to die, and I don't want to be at war with Iraq. It's not that I don't support the soldiers individually, it's that I don't support the reasons for going to war with every Muslim country on the map. Personally, I don't want to be the people you see on the videos, about to have their head sliced off. It dosen't look fun...I'm sure they regretted their decision to join the military when they felt the blade touch their skin.

And hey, every other friend and ex boyfriend of mine has been in jail, is in jail, etc. I'd probably get along great.

[RICHARD]

Curious on what basis you make that statement. Are you personally familiar with every guy who fought in Viet Nam?

The question was "War or Jail". You guys are quite free to follow orders blindly. Me...I want a truthful and sound reason before I go off killing people.

No, I am not familiar with every guy that fought in VN.

But I do know my cousin, who has some hellacious scars across his belly from a place called Khe Sahn. We have talked about war.


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I think that all people who oppose this illegal war should stop paying their taxes, but, if they support the troops, we won't have any money to give them what they need to be safe, stay safe and carry out their mission- "blind soldiers" need bullets and beans, too!


I say give them all my tax money.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre

[RICHARD]

http://www.petoftheday.com/talk/show...08#post1342008

My tax dollars at work!!!!

[Lady's Human]

ES, If someone in my platoon follows orders blindly, I want them the hell out of the army. There's a difference between blind obedience to orders and having the discipline to follow orders. The modern battlefield is far too complex for mind numbed soldiers. We need thinking soldiers, not automatons.

[Edwina's Secretary]

What is the difference?

And RICHARD....1912...Woodrow Wilson....Ludlow Massacre....

[Lady's Human]

ES, there's a huge difference, but it's impossible to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it.

[RICHARD]

What is the difference?

And RICHARD....1912...Woodrow Wilson....Ludlow Massacre....

Whoa,


It was 1914, and how did Rockefeller, as a mine owner, get the Colorado state governor to send the Nat'l. Guard in?

Me thinks me smells something nasty underfoot!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre


I read up on it yesterday.....I posted this link but didn't post it correctly.