A Couple of Problems With Our Pack - long post

[MaxnPeteysMom]

Thanks Daisy's Mom. BTW, when I saw that picture of yours today I emailed my husband about it immediately - it is TOO TOO adorable!!

Well, it's been said before but not by me! WELCOME TO PETTALKVILLE ! I wish I had advice for you... I have 3 dogs but I am total novice on training and correcting behavior. Besides, this one sounds like a complicated problemo! Going to that doctor is my best recommendation anyway. I'm sure that will help.

It's nice to see some more "west side" peoples poppin' up here. For awhile there it was little old me and Jackie way out in CA and AZ and everyone else was Midwest and back East! Anyway, I saw your pics and Max and Petey are adorable! If you don't mind I would like to put them up on the website. You can take a look - the link is below under my doggies pics. It has pics of everyone's dogs that are on this forum. Their user names are under their dog's pics. Could you tell us (unless I have missed it already) which one is Max and Petey?

Welcome and good luck with those two ruff and tuff guys!

[lizbud]

MaxnPeteysMom..Welcome to Pet Talk !!!
You pics of Max and Petey are really good ..
Cannot offer any real help with the fear/
aggression issues, but there are Pros. in dog
training and behavior on this board who can
offer helpful suggestions for you.
Welcome aboard!!!!

[MaxnPeteysMom]

Thanks doggiemom and Liz - I'm a Liz too, btw. And yes, doggie, I'd LOVE for Max and Petey to be included on the website! Max is the brindle yorkiepoo, and Petey is the black poodle/bedlington terrier mix.

I'm hoping to hear from this behaviorist soon - maybe an appointment with him will explain some things to us!

[aly]

Welcome Liz!!!! I am so happy you decided to join Pet Talk. My name is Alyson and I have a cat, poodle, and wh fox terrier/poodle mix. Your dogs are ADORABLE! What sweeties. Yorkies and poodles are two of my favorite breeds. Both of those mixed into one must be QUITE the personality! Petey reminds me a little of my wirehair fox terrier I used to have who a lot of people mistook for a bedlington. Max's little face and expressions really remind me of my poodle, Reece.

I've been through the MASSIVE seperation anxiety thing with two dogs in the past 6 months. They both still have it, but we are at the point where it is extremely controllable and there is no more yelping and howling, YAY If your dogs are still suffering from it uncontrollably, I can give you some things to try.

Have you tried any basic dominance exercises with the dogs? This may help to keep them a lot more under control, especially on walks. Most all terriers need to be put in their place with dominance issues. Lolly is the only terrier I've seen that doesn't need that, but her shy, submissive personality comes from 5 years of severe abuse. If you need suggestions on dominance exercises, I can give you some of those too.

The good news is your dogs are no longer depressed, homeless dogs but now are confident little guys who probably feel very secure with you. Isn't rescuing dogs the BEST feeling?

Again, welcome to Pet Talk. You sound like you'll fit in just perfectly here! Full of love for your little pups just like the rest of us And I am so excited to see more poodle mixes Good luck with your training and let me know if you'd like me to elaborate on anything.

[MaxnPeteysMom]

Thanks for the welcome, Aly. Your little ones are precious!

Yes, if you could please elaborate on EVERYTHING - especially the separation anxiety issue and how you dealt with it, that would be great.

[RachelJ]

I'm not an expert but I can't help thinking that a basic obedience class would go a long way in helping you get better control of your two dears. If they understand that you are the alpha in charge, they won't feel such a need to take the offensive while out and about. Your dogs need to know that you are the one in control and learn what behavior is not acceptable. Gentle and correct usuage of a chain training collar can help them learn. I just have the feeling that it wouldn't take too many corrections for them learn to control these unacceptable behaviors. These little poodle mixes smartee pups. Also as TollSett has pointed out, it may be easier to teach while handling them one at a time. When they both understand what is expected, then you can resume the walks together.

My dogs understand what I mean by "No bark". I taught this in a controlled situation. Hannah would stand on a chair looking out the window and bark. In that position I knew I could reach her when she was barking. She started barking and I said in a calm and firm voice "No bark!" I then reached over and held her mouth so she couldn't bark and then immediately praised her. "Good girl". It doesn't take much for them to understand what you mean. Now that they understand the command, you want to be able to enforce it. This is where a shake can like TollSett was talking about can make an impression or you might want to try a spray bottle with water. One fine spray in the face can stop a little barker in her tracks.

I also would like to recommend the "training manual for humans and their canine companions" called Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. It has a wealth of helpful techniques.

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[MaxnPeteysMom]

I'll try all of those suggestions. Max has been through a lengthy obedience class process and happily Petey has picked it up by watching him. Problem is, hubby and I have been decidedly lax in putting them both through their paces. But although they both know "sit," "stay," "come," "wait," "heel," and "stay close," the "leave it" and "no bark" thing NEVER worked - of course !

We tried the shaker can - they didn't care. We tried the spray bottle with a vinegar/water mix as recommended by our trainer - Max just came out of it smelling like antipasto!!

We're starting again to put them both through their training paces. Our new apartment (yes, we're moving too - lovely timing) is pet friendly and all coming and going into the building is doine through our telephone - no more buzzers and bells to set them off, happily!

I'm hoping we'll be able to get an appointment with this behaviorist.

We've been thinking about doing another training class, but since we already have such specific voice and hand commands, do you folks think that would be confusing to them? Or can we inform the teacher that we're there for a refresher and will be working with the commands they respond to? Not quite sure what the etiquette is there.

[carrie]

This is what I hate about dog training!
The "establishment" makes it unnerving, frightening and full of, all too often, deliberate pitfalls.

Please email me with your problems if you wish to and I will do what I can to help.


Do not feel like you do at the moment!

A dog training class is not what I would suggest. A half decent behaviourist will be helpful, honest and will not make you feel intimidated or that there is an etiquette to be observed.
These are your dogs and you are being honest, open and trusting in saying that you have problems. YOU are doing the right thing in trying to rectify these problems and anyone who makes you feel bad for that is wallowing in their own knowledge and the power that it gives them rather than showing any interest in the well being of your dogs or the fact that you are a good person trying to gain some insight.
I am very cross that you should feel you need advice on how to approach these people, as a whole, but totally understand that many are in the same boat as you. This is terrible. You are not alone in this and it is the best way to put people off seeking help that I can think of.
I know, before anyone tells me, that this a bit over the top ( and probably not what you meant at all! - sorry) but I have had so many emails in the last few months about exactly this sort of thing I have reached the end of my tether!
There is no magic, no special tricks and should be no special way to approach trainers or behaviourists.
Dog training is not quantum physics, it is not algebra, it is not even long division! Anyone who makes you feel like they have some secret knowledge that you don't....leave them well alone. It is just dog training - it can be harder than you think but it is not rocket science!
I would still go with one on one training with the right trainer.....but if you already feel like the underdog (pardon the pun) then STOP!
You don't have major problems, they are pretty easy to sort out with the right attitude from you ( you certainly don't have a problem there) and it is a crying shame that a) you feel so intimidated and b) there aren't more owners like you who want the best for their dogs.
Pooh to all dog trainers that make it more compicated than it is!

[carrie]

Phew - I feel better, not sure that you do!!

[lizbud]

MaxnPeteysMom,
Is'nt it refreshing to hear that you don't
have to feel intimidated , or that this
problem with your furkids is not solveable!!!
Carrie speaks from her heart, with years of
experience behind her...
I know you & your husband care very much
about your furkids; trust your instincts,and hope that you find the needed advise &
support for this problem soon...
Hang in there!!!

[MaxnPeteysMom]

We've had some improvement today.

First off, tho, I got a call back from the behaviorist - WOW! Pricey! For three meetings - 1 1/2 hours at his office with us and the dogs, then 2 hours at home with him and the dogs, then another of the first type, plus contact in between? $850.00! OUCH!

In the meantime, hubby went out and got a second choke chain today and we started working the boys on their leads with great success in the house. We will keep doing this until we're ready to move them outside with more distraction.

Also, someone on this board - I didn't go back and look to see who it was - said they used the phrase "No bark" with their dogs and it worked. Well, I don't know what it is about that phrase, but for some reason they both seem to get it! Okay, I don't know WHAT'S up with that - we've had Max for three years and we've NEVER been able to get him to stop barking with ANYTHING, esp. not a command. But we're going to stick with this one.

As far as the training goes, I actually don't feel intimidated by it at all. We originally sent Max to doggie boot camp at a place in Chicago called Peter and the Wolf - and it was fantastic! If it wasn't for Peter and his wife, Jan, Max would probably still be terrified of other dogs and not know ANY commands.

The reason I brought up the etiquette is that every class teaches different verbal commands and hand signals, and since we're now in L.A., we'd have to go to a different teacher - I don't want to confuse the dogs since they're both so used to these signals already, but didn't want to give the teacher a hard time, that's all. More about the confusion than anything else.

Gosh - what a HUGELY supportive group you are - this is terrific!!

[MaxnPeteysMom]

Rachel! She's the one who talked about the "No bark" command!

Bless you, Rachel !

[aly]

Hi Liz. First I'll tell you a few dominance things then I'll make a post about the seperation anxiety.

Some of these things will be hard to do, but they really do help. I think the hardest is not letting your dogs sleep with you in your bed. I am not sure where they are sleeping now but it is suggested to gain dominance, they should sleep on the floor. If they sleep lower than you, they will look up to you as "top dog". Another thing is you should eat before feeding them their meals. Even if you just eat a cracker or something, be sure they see you eat first. You should also go through doorways first. I know especially with 2 dogs, this can be hard to control. You can teach them the wait command if they don't know it. Say the command, then you go through the door, then give them a release word so they can come through the door. You should be the one who starts and stops the games. If they come up to you waving toys in your face wanting to play, take the toy and have them sit or do a few commands, then you can play fetch or tug of war with them. When you're done playing, you stop the game and put the toy away so they don't think they have won.

It may not be necessary to do each of these things with your dogs. Doing a combination of two or three of them might work. Each dog is different so you can try out different dominance exercises and see what works.

[aly]

Hmm, I can't find the search feature again. I made a really long post about seperation anxiety before and am trying to find it to copy and paste. Is the search link gone again or am I nuts?

Liz, I'll repost the seperation anxiety thing again tomorrow if I can't find this search feature tonight.