New Dog Owner :)

[Pam]

One last comment about crate training as it relates to housebreaking. My son's ex-wife had a male pekingese who was over 2 years old when they were married. She had not been successful in training this pup. He had lots of "mistakes" whether she was home or not. After she and my son were married I suggested they take our old crate that was no longer being used. They began using the crate during the day when they were at work. Presto! In no time at all this dog was not making mistakes in the house any more and this was accomplished on a dog that was far from the puppy stage. I, too, firmly believe that crates have their function. Sorry, Carrie, you know I hold you in very high regard but we differ here a bit.

[KYS]

Carrie, Please, never be sorry for dissagreeing with me or anybody.
Everyone's opinion is most important
and I very much value yours.

I quoted the den information straight from
a section in my book on crate training.
As for emergency:
I meant after the fact, in case an
animal had to be displaced.
In a dissaster situations, your animals might
have to be transported by crate and temporarly kept in one.
Many of the rescue groups, each each year
request donations of crates during a dissaster for transporting animals.

A dog can very much enjoy a car ride,
but put a dog in a closed in crate,
it can suffer sever anxiety, if it is not
accustomed to a crate.
(I have such a dog.)
As for crates, many behavior/trainers, books, and humane societies now seem to recommend some type of crate training today.
Since I am not into crate training,
I would be happy to supply you with an e-mail list I am on that a few good trainers and reputable rescue people are on that
can explain the do's and don't to crate training, much better than I can.
There is also a web site called Pet Care Forum. IF you find their library, look up crate training. It lists crate education from known humane rescue groups and also trainers.
Crate training is not my thing, but It might
be quite usefull for others if not abused.

[lizbud]

Hi Snogrl,
Welcome to Pet Talk!!!

I read your first post but did not reply b/c
i did not know what to say exactly to help
you .i have a big dog who was also a big pup
and chewed up any thing in sight when i went
to work ..Also when i was there but asleep..
i got a crate, read all the in info about
Crate Training, etc..but with me it was a
total failure..
First. the crate i purchased 3 weeks before
assembling it and introducing it to him
turned out to be too small and actually
collapsed on me as i tried to get him to
go inside it & check it out..
I know of many people that swear by the
Crate as a good solution to leaving a young
pup or introducting an older dog to the
house routine..i however never really felt
it was any thing but convenient for me & not
really good for him!!!
i ended up confining him to the kitchen area
with a 'baby gate' with toys ,water,etc. and plenty of newspapers spread around..
You probably will get a lot of opinions on
this but that is probably a good thing.Right?
Good Luck and may you both enjoy your new
furbaby SADIE..

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

Our dogs, even though only two are regularly crated, are all crate-trained. It has come in very handy when we have taken them on vactions and had to stay in hotels or at family member's homes.
Our Paula loves the crate; that is her nap spot of choice when we are home (with the door open).
Boo is spastic and gets spooked easily, so we feel that crating her when we are gone from home is the safest option. I fear that she would hurt herself by trying to climb out of windows, chew through furniture, or get into cupboards. When she is older and more sedate, we do plan to leave her out. For now, she relaxes and enjoys sound, undisturbed naps in her crate.
Pup is a puppy, and I worry about her getting into things just like Boo. But she also sometimes gets on the nerves of the other dogs, and they could injure her intentionally or accidently. She is in a greyhound-size crate, and has plenty or room to walk around, pplay with toys, etc.

For us, crating works. I feel that all my dogs are in a safe environment when we can't be there to watch them.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Welcome Snogrl, I guess you are getting more opinions than you ever thought possible.
I have to mostly agree with Carrie, Actually we do have crates, two of them. One for Daisy and one for Perry. We leave the door open for Perry and he goes in when he feels like it for a nap and he wants to sleep in it at night. I tried letting him loose but he wanted in his crate and cried until I latched his door. Daisy does not use her crate never goes in during the day or at night, we have a couple of beds around the house and she sleeps in them during the day. However if we are going on a extended trip we fold our back seat down and they travel in the crates for safety sake. If we go out for a few hours and it is nice outside they stay on our patio. Especially during the winter when we go out we leave them in the kitchen, they have a rug, toys and both their crates are in there and we have a kiddie gate between the kitchen and den. They can go in the crate or play or lay on the rug.
I don't really like the crates, too much confinement for an animal. I would be really wary of putting a small puppie in one and keeping it in there for 3 or 4 hours. That is a long time to expect the pup to hold it and sleep. The idea of having a puppy is to enjoy it not confine it. Snogrl maybe you could get some kiddie gates and at least confine it to one room, where it could move about. We have four kiddie gates that we use when we travel or in the house when we have company that Perry and Daisy don't like.
Good luck with your new puppie, are you sure you are ready to take on that responsibility
right now, it takes a lot of work and patience to bring up a pup.
Jackie

[AdoreMyDogs]

Wow...all I have to say is that I LOVE reading all the debates here Very interesting and some wonderful points. I, too, believe in crate training, but also agree with some of the points Carrie had about not crate training, and I respect Carrie's words very much. No advice, just wanted to share with you my appreciation for a nice, friendly debate LOVE IT!

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: AdoreMyDogs ]

[SnoGrl]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! My husband has been keeping up with your advice on here as well. We appreciate everyone's opinions greatly--we need the advice as new puppy parents!

Last nite we had an interesting occurence with Sadie. We had put a handful of food in her cage mid-evening and shut and locked the door-we don't want her in the crate when we are home. So my husband and I ate our dinner, packed our bags for our trip this weekend, were busy (but in the room) and Miss Sadie sat outside the kennel and pawed at it to get in. When we opened the door, she gladly went in and cleaned up the food. We did not shut the door behind her when she went in so she could come out at her leisure. Later, when it was time for bed, we tried the same thing but she was more cautious and not sure that food was going to be worth it. She went in with some very (and I really mean very) gentle encouragement....but then woke us up every two hours for the rest of the nite. Good Dog--way to get revenge!! haha Just kidding.

SO anyway, we hate not being home with her all day. My husband would be in Heaven if he could stay at home and admire her all day. But that is not an option. It looks like it is just going to take some time for us to figure out her quirks and her to figure out ours. Sometimes I forget, some things just can't happen overnight!! When she gets older, we will undoubtedly be much more lenient with the whole crate situation but for now, she is going to be crated.

Thanks again for your helpful comments and suggestions for literature & web pages. We are hoping our "Great Dogs, Good Owners" arrives on Monday!

[Dixieland Dancer]

I am a breeder of Golden Retrievers and have been training dogs for over 25 years. I have done both non-crate and crate training over the years. Personally, I find crate training a pup more humane than letting them have the run of the house when nobody is there. After a dog is house broken (for potty and knowing what is acceptable and not acceptable to chew on) they can gradually be weaned from the crate while you are not there. Always leave the door open though so they can go in when they want to. I find they even go in once they are allowed to come out. Here are some ideas on the subject.

The Importance of Crate Training

When dogs are in the wild, they live in a den. This makes them feel safe and secure. In your home, his crate is his den. Crate training should start as soon as you bring your puppy home. Make the crate as comfortable as you can. He should be encouraged to sleep and rest in the crate. He should be coaxed in, not forced. Use a command such as "Kennel" or "Kennel up" and tap on the top of the kennel. A small treat can be used, and always give him lots of praise. Never put his food in the crate. Just use treats he especially loves. At first, he may try to back out, or become very timid. This is normal. Just give him time, and he'll go in on his own. In the beginning, don't close the door. Let him go in and out as he pleases, until he's comfortable with this situation. Once he is comfortable, restrain him with your hand in the doorway. Eventually, he will feel comfortable enough to have the door closed. A puppy should be kept in his crate whenever not supervised.

A puppy instinctively knows not to "mess" in his crate, but he does need to go out every 2-4 hours when he's young. Make sure you take him out frequently, and get him on a schedule. When you take him out use a command such as "Go Potty" and use lots of praise when he does.

He will not be able to destroy things, by chewing on them, when he is in his crate. Leave an approved chew toy in the crate with him, so that he can satisfy his need to chew. Eventually, as the puppy grows into a full grown dog, he will use his crate, with the door open, as his own little den.

Sorry to those of you who disagree with my opinion here. I know there are both sides to the camp but.... no hard feelings

Best of Luck on your new pup and stick to your guns about crate training. You are doing the right thing.

[Rottie]

Originally posted by carrie:
<STRONG>Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!</STRONG>

I disagree. Crates are a very wonderful tool when housebreaking. Dogs also consider crates their "den".

I understand that crates (just like anything else) can be abused, when the dog has to stay in it day after day for hours on end and never gets any exercise or attention.

My three dogs are all crate trained. Various times throughout the day they can be found in their crates sleeping or chewing on a toy, with the door open! They are not forced to be in their crates at this time, they willing go into their crates.

How then are your dogs "happier and better adjusted" than mine?

[Rottie]

Originally posted by SnoGrl:
<STRONG>Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! My husband has been keeping up with your advice on here as well. We appreciate everyone's opinions greatly--we need the advice as new puppy parents!

Last nite we had an interesting occurence with Sadie. We had put a handful of food in her cage mid-evening and shut and locked the door-we don't want her in the crate when we are home. So my husband and I ate our dinner, packed our bags for our trip this weekend, were busy (but in the room) and Miss Sadie sat outside the kennel and pawed at it to get in. When we opened the door, she gladly went in and cleaned up the food. We did not shut the door behind her when she went in so she could come out at her leisure. Later, when it was time for bed, we tried the same thing but she was more cautious and not sure that food was going to be worth it. She went in with some very (and I really mean very) gentle encouragement....but then woke us up every two hours for the rest of the nite. Good Dog--way to get revenge!! haha Just kidding.

SO anyway, we hate not being home with her all day. My husband would be in Heaven if he could stay at home and admire her all day. But that is not an option. It looks like it is just going to take some time for us to figure out her quirks and her to figure out ours. Sometimes I forget, some things just can't happen overnight!! When she gets older, we will undoubtedly be much more lenient with the whole crate situation but for now, she is going to be crated.

Thanks again for your helpful comments and suggestions for literature & web pages. We are hoping our "Great Dogs, Good Owners" arrives on Monday!</STRONG>

Sounds like Sadie is starting to get used to her crate. Yeah When you are home and able to watch her, I would leave the crate door open. So she can go in or come out whenever she wants. The crate will become her "room" or "den". Good luck with Sadie, she sounds like a cutie!

[TollSettFK]

Here is what I heard. We have a dog loving nieghbor, who knowes A LOT about dogs, and caring, traning, and much more. She said that whenever you are not FULLY playing with the dog, crate him. I do that, and, at 8 weeks, is already potty trained! I play with him a lot, and I'd say he is only in the crate at max 2 and a half hours a day. My nieghbor also said that the crate is like a den to him, and it's a comfort to him. My pup runs in there when I vacum, or when ever somthing loud happens.

[SnoGrl]

Hi everyone,

Just an update We have been very successful with Sadie...and I really, honestly believe it was because we introduced her to my brother's very well trained English ShortHair Pointer. It was honestly Pete and Repeat with these two. Both are black and white in all the same places! Sadie fell in love with Pepper (2 years old and VERY patient!) They played NONSTOP for three days before Pepper had to go home to her own mommy. I think it is because of Pepper that Sadie learned what business was to be done outside, and what time is a good time to do it. We haven't had a single house problem since we brought her back from visiting with Pepper.

Also, crate training is going wonderfully well. We say "Kennel up" and she sits, but then we point and she goes to her kennel. While we aren't quite ready to stay out of our cage all day, I think we are getting there! She often times retreats to her kennel now to fetch her toys or her sleep "rug", etc. She starts obedience training on Sept. 19 which is just not soon enough for me! We don't want to encourage her to do anything that could potentially harm her hunting skills...so we are firm, but not trying to train her in any way. She is great and has been the highlight of our lives. And everyone who sees her just falls in love with her. Sadie loves the attention....I think I saw my husband beam like this at our wedding!!

Not only are we glad we got her, but we are glad we opted for a humane society dog. This month we are going to send Sadie's picture to the humane society with a a check and a thank you note...it's because of them that we have her.

Just wanted to update you all. Thanks again for all the support and advice!

[Daisy's Mom]

I am so glad Sadie is doing better! I think that you are doing the right thing to crate-train her. It worked out great for me. Good luck with sweet little Sadie!

[Angels3]

Welcome SnoGrl & Sadie. Good on you for getting a dog from a shelter! It says a great deal about the wonderful people on this board that they can have a lively discussion about the pros & cons of 'crating' dogs..but always remain respectful of each other. Shows why PetTalk is the best animal forum ever!

I'm glad Sadie is now settling in so well to her new home & family & conditions.

Now for a confession...when I first accessed dog boards that were mainly sited in the US, I kept wondering what people meant when they talked about 'crate training'. I didn't even know what a crate was...yet I'm very involved with dog rescue activities here in Australia.

Soon I realized a 'crate' seemed to mean a largish cage where you set up a 'den-like' place for the dog...where it could have its own space & be assigned to when freedom of movement around the home wasn't wanted. And the 'crate' seemed to be kept indoors...in the house or a ventilated garage or something.

I wondered why that 'crating' didn't mean a thing to me from Australian conditions. I can only guess that we have different climatic conditions so our ways of setting up a 'den' like that are different. Like we make use of outdoor areas...a purpose-built kennel with dog-run attached is one example (with big dogs & when there's lots of garden space.) Australians love their big 'backyards', as they're called. Also we have a lot of places like sheltered verandahs & sunrooms & laundry rooms attached to the backs of our houses...these are often used as dog dens (with a dog door leading to an outside spot for toileting). This is what we use for our own dogs.
I've seen largish cages used to confine dogs for security reasons & for short periods in places like dogshows, vet surgeries & at the groomers. But I've never seen one of those in anybody's house or apartment (we call them 'units' or 'townhouses'.)
So it's not a matter of whether I believe in 'crating' or not...there seems to be other ways of doing things in our conditions here.

[ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: Angels3 ]

[Angels3]

My apologies for somehow posting my entire message above in bold. I haven't a clue how I managed to do that...but I certainly didn't mean to. So I'm sorry if I've made it a bit hard on your eyes.