Choke-chains: are they Cruel?

[Logan]

You are probably right, Jackie, and I have two strong dogs. My trainers NEVER tried tough methods either. In fact, they would reprimand the owner if they "yanked" on the dog's neck. It's only a quick "pop" that is ok.

Still can't walk them together, although I have tried!!! My problem with the flat collars and plastic buckles, which I would like to use at home just to keep id on my dogs, is that Honey will chew one off of Lilly's neck in less than five minutes!!!! I finally had to decide to keep the collars off of them at home in the yard, and just hope that they didn't get out of the fence!!!! Any ideas about what I could use, besides a chain or choke collar, that Honey can't chew through??

[This message has been edited by Logan (edited March 14, 2001).]

[KYS]

shais_mom,
I use a break away collar at home for my male dog.
When I only had one large dog, I never
had a problem with the nylon snap collars.
(I use a strong collar when the dogs are out in public.) The reason I tried the breakaway
is because my two large dogs would
grab eachother necks. My male dog
grabed my females collar when they were playing, and he injured her.
If there in the yard together she no longer wears a collar and he wears a break away. I lock my gates so they can not get out. (it bothers me not to have a collar on her, she is tatooed and I might get her chipped too.)

[Sudilar]

My two large GSDs do not wear any collar in the house or in my fenced yard. I do not want them getting caught on anything. However, when we go out for our daily walks, Killian (male, 110lbs) wears a choke collar. It works well. He doesn't pull on it at all. My 95lb. female wears a prong collar. She is VERY muscular and strong. If we encounter a loose dog, I must be able to control her. This rarely happens, so the prong collar does not affect her most of the time. I walk both dogs together. I weigh 100 lbs. As others have said, a choke collar or prong collar can be useful when used correctly. I was taught how to use them at obedience classes also.

[Corinna]

Ok I have to weight in on this. I have seen the worst and the best of the chain training collar (tip) it is only for use in training purposes. Some dogs are gentle enough to use the nylon,some are not. However I have different collars and harnesses(see harness questions earlier)It is so Merlin knows what we are going to be doing and what I expect of him. If a person knows how to use then its great. I had a neighbor when I moved here that had a chain training collar on her rottie and her sheparad I showed her somegrizzly photos i used in my classes it was a rot that got hung up as it tried to jump out of a truck. She puts them loose in the truck (which is another total lecture) the next day I found nylon solid collars on them. BaSim if you know how to use it properly go for it I say. Merlin is strong willed at his heeling when birds fly over so I have to use one on him any thing else he just ignores.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Originally posted by Logan:
You are probably right, Jackie, and I have two strong dogs. My trainers NEVER tried tough methods either. In fact, they would reprimand the owner if they "yanked" on the dog's neck. It's only a quick "pop" that is ok.

Still can't walk them together, although I have tried!!! My problem with the flat collars and plastic buckles, which I would like to use at home just to keep id on my dogs, is that Honey will chew one off of Lilly's neck in less than five minutes!!!! I finally had to decide to keep the collars off of them at home in the yard, and just hope that they didn't get out of the fence!!!! Any ideas about what I could use, besides a chain or choke collar, that Honey can't chew through??

[This message has been edited by Logan (edited March 14, 2001).]

[RachelJ]

A dog's size, temperment, and attitude are key in deciding if a choke chain should be used at all in training. It is my opinion that there are some dogs that not only do not need this device, it should not be used on them, ever. That said, this is a highly effective training tool that can get the attention and control of the bigger, stronger, and more assertive dog. There is one correct way to use a choke chain and various incorrect ways. One needs to be certain to use the correct method in order that the training tool is effective and not harmful to the dog. It is of the UTMOST importance that you know the right way to make a "correction" with the choke chain. I would never leave a choke chain on at any time other than a training session or walking.

There are a lot of dogs that cannot be controlled or trained without this device. I use it occasionally myself and know that with Hannah, one or two "corrections" immediately reminds her how to walk on a leash and who is in charge when we are walking. The alternative would be her pulling on the leash and gagging herself on her regular collar for the duration of the walk. For a larger dog the choke chain as a tool for control can be even more critical.
It is an asset to many dogs and their owners.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935:

Logan I understand your problem, and really I don't know the answer to biting off the collar. Our daughter-in-law has a male and female schnauzer and the female bites off every collar that the male wears. I'm stumped on that one!

[wolflady]

I've noticed that a lot of you with larger dogs have had to use the choke collar for training purposes. I suppose that may be something I have to look into when I adopt a Terv or GSD, since they are larger dogs than I have ever had. Since I had a smaller dog (eskie), she never needed it, but I agree if they are used properly, safely and for training purposes...then it's ok. I definitely agree that it's NOT something to be left on all the time because of the dangers and hazards that can quickly become an issue for the dog. So, I agree with Rachel, it just depends on the dog.

In a way, I suppose any collar could be a potential hazard. Now, please don't think that I'm against regular collars, because I'm not. My dog had a collar on all the time. I think all dogs should have them for identification purposes and for training and exercising. Just like most things around us, there are potential dangers (whenever you get into a car, there's a potential danger. This is the route I'm taking with this bit, so please don't be offended). A good friend of mine just had her dog pass away unexpectedly. I was so sad for her when she told me about it. I mean, these are the nicest people you'll ever meet and they love both of their dogs. The whole family (they have 2 kids too) was so distraught for quite sometime. Well, they have an outdoor run that the dogs are in when they are away. It's a really nice large run with grass and doghouses and stuff. The dogs are not chained up in the run. Well, a few weeks ago they came home to find their little dog had strangled itself on it's collar trying to get away from the fireworks their neighbors were setting. They found that out later. What a terrible thing to come home to! I can imagine how bad I would feel if I came home to find my 13 year old dog had killed itself! Why these neighbor people were setting fireworks that night is beyond me, but a lot of people mentioned to this guy that all the dogs were going crazy when this was going on. Since this accident, my friends have brought their other dog inside. They never imagined that something like that would happen. I probably wouldn't have either. It's a nice big run, the dogs have their collars on for identification purposes, just in case for some reason they escaped. They put the dogs out for the evening since they would be gone for several hours and wanted them to be able to potty. Who would have known about these other people setting off fireworks and scaring the dogs? They had their little dog cremated and put into a special urn. I could sympathize with her over the loss of her pet, but I couldn't really relate to the circumstances. It was devastating! I didn't really know what to do, but I sent her the story of the Rainbow Bridge, since she hadn't heard of it before.

Logan, sounds like you've found and option to the biting off the collar problem for now. I'm with Jackie in that I'm stumped on that one!! I would probably do the same thing in the house and in the yard, by leaving them off. Not really sure what kind of durable collars are out there since I haven't been in that dept for quite some time. Be sure to let us know if you find a solution!!

[Rottie]

I disagree. If used correctly, a choke chain works wonders.

I got my male Rottweiler when he was 1 year old. A few months later we took him to obedience classes - on a choke chain, he pulled and lunged at his leash, and I couldn't even hold him back. The trainer gave him 3 large collar corrections when he went to sniff another dog. The fourth time, when we brought him up to another dog, he didn't even look at it. After that, he was a completely different dog! I don't think we could have ever gotten the same results using a buckle collar or a harness.

The problem with choke chains are that they are misused. If the choke chain is put on correctly, the collar should tighten and then release. But if you put it on backwards, it will tighten and not release until you physically loosen it with your hands.

Also, most people do not know how to use a choke chain. You can't be constantly choking the dog, a quick pop works better.

Choke chains and pinch collars work well with my dogs, I am satisfied with them. I know many people don't like these collars because they view dogs as equal or even above humans. But dogs are just that - dogs. Even though we love them even more than humans sometimes, they are still dogs.

[Rottie]

Originally posted by KYS:
If a choke collar/prong is used correctly it should not harm your dog. The choke can be used as a training tool/for walking
strong dogs. If not used correctly
that can cause harm to the dog. It should Never be used as a regular collar.

I use a harness for my little dog,
because she pulls.
I use a thick Greyhound collar for my
female Akita and a choke collar
for my male.
I never leave either one of these collars on my dogs when they are not being walked.

Just a thought, but wouldn't you put a harness on your dog if you want it to pull? That's what they do with sled dogs.

[Logan]

Rottie,
I think that a lot of people feel like the harness is gentler to the dog, so their neck doesn't get the strain when they pull. I can just see mine in a harness pulling me all over the neighborhood though! Ha Ha!
A lot of people who I have met on the MSN Golden Retriever site have used what is called a Gentle Leader, with a lot of success. I think it prevents the dog from being quite so mobile, but I've never seen one used, and I know it wouldn't work with my obedience trainers as they are quite strick about equipment.

[Luv My Brando]

Originally posted by Logan:
Rottie,
I think that a lot of people feel like the harness is gentler to the dog, so their neck doesn't get the strain when they pull. I can just see mine in a harness pulling me all over the neighborhood though! Ha Ha!
A lot of people who I have met on the MSN Golden Retriever site have used what is called a Gentle Leader, with a lot of success. I think it prevents the dog from being quite so mobile, but I've never seen one used, and I know it wouldn't work with my obedience trainers as they are quite strick about equipment.

Logan,

Glad you brought up the Gentle Leader.

I just finished an introductory obedience training class with my dog. Interestingly enough, this training school that I attending had stopped using Choke-chains due to the fact that so many people were using them incorrectly or too harshly. They ONLY allowed the "Gentle Leaders" for traning.

The following website explains exactly what the "Gentle Leader" is and how it functions. http://www.gentleleader.com/intro.html

I used the Gentle Leader for the entire course and it was excellent! It doesn't hamper the dog's mobility whatsoever.

I recommend them to all doglovers- especially those looking for an alternative to the choke-chain.

[Logan]

Thank you for posting that website. I was picturing something totally different, thinking the legs were involved somehow. Obviously, there is another one out there that I have heard about, but got confused with the Gentle Leader.

[tatsxxx11]

It seems that most of us are really not so much at odds as to whether or not choke collars are effective. I think it is more their proper application and use that is the issue. I too know of several cases in which dogs were strangeled to death after having been left unattended with a choke collar in place. If used properly, in the "P" configuration, ("Uncle Matty" 1st taught me this!) as a training method, under supervision, I think they work very well in teaching "correction" in obedience training. I know many who are also having great success with the Halti-collar and Gentle Leader. Some, however, mistake these for also being able to act as a muzzle. They don't. A dog can still bite with them on. I know when Star was a puppy, but already very strong, I would never have been able to walk her comfortably without having trained her on a choke collar. (Maybe a Halti collar if they had been available) She would pull and strain so strenuously with a cloth collar and and would end up almost choking HERSELF; gasping for breath, and dragging me to the ground! After learning how to walk properly in obedience class with a choke collar (like was said; just a "pop" correction) she was fine after one class or two. Most importantly, the training class taught her to "heel" and obey other commands that keep her from pulling in the first place! Please just pass the word to anyone who will listen. Don't ever leave a dog unattended, inside or outside, with a choke collar on!

[wolflady]

I agree with tats, that's all I was trying to say was that if used correctly, I'm sure they are fine, but I don't think they should be left on ALL the time or unattended.