Lilly can't jump

**carrie** · 12-01-2000, 05:39 PM

I honestly don't know the state of the breeding stock on your side of the pond but you would be hard pressed to find a Golden Retriever, German Shepherd or Lab here without some degree of displaysia. If you do find a perfect animal hip wise it will almost certainly throw pups with some degree. It is a sad fact of the way we have bred dogs that problems like these are part and parcel of the pedigree dog. This is what makes me, for one, so angry to be told that I am extreme in my views when I say we should be working towards healthier dogs. If this means losing lines that have been around for over fifty or seventy years so be it!
For Logan - it's not the end of the world, mild displaysia has been overlooked for decades (sorry to drop my sarcasm on your problem Logan, but it's true!) and with medication Lily should have a full and active life.

Try giving cod liver oil in the diet and remember to excersise often during the day, get her up every half hour or so to keep the joint working. Watch her calcium intake, don't over do it, don't stint on fluids and mostly she will tell you when she has had enough. Walks on the leash will help and instead of sitting try a stand position. At her age her weight should really start to come down a few pounds - don't starve her but keep her on the lighter side of normal. It will really help her as she gets older.

**KYS** · 12-01-2000, 06:48 PM

posted by carrie:
it is a sad fact of the way we have bred dogs that problems like these are part and parcel of the pedigree dog. This is what makes me, for one, so angry to be told that I am extreme in my views when I say we should be working towards healthier dogs. If this means losing lines that have been around for over fifty or seventy years so be it!>>>>>>

I agree that much more needs to be done concerning the health of our dogs.
(money is involved, and lets not forget that most of our problems lies with the puppy mills and backyard breeders who do not test at all.
I wish AKC would create a policing policy instead of only being a record/info. keeper of dogs.
AKC could do a lot if they would refuse to register any dogs litters who parents have not been DNA and health tested for certain diseases. (these records should be open to the public) The ACA breed club gives a portion of their dues to health and breed rescue.
My male Akita since I can remember never
liked to jump, he used to have a limp on his right front leg to. In 4 months (per the agreement with his breeder)I will be having his hips etc. x-rayed. I hope his hips will receive a good or excellent rating, but if they do not I will not be surprised.

I use to own a GSD with very bad hips.
She lived a good life till she was 12 years old.
Yes, something needs to be done. I am tired of the heartache of having a dog suffer or pass away because of disease.
Off my soap box now!

**ktreva52** · 12-01-2000, 08:27 PM

I am so glad Lilly is doing better. I think she'll do fine.

Yes, Carrie (I have a daughter by that name), we do have that problem in almost every medium to giant breed and even in some of the small breeds. It can be related to some of the puppy mills and some of the backyard breeders, but there are many "reputable" breeders that are so in love with one dog or bitch in a line, they line breed a bit indiscriminately. This is also a fault of the judges at AKC shows. We must remember that breeders will not breed something (generally) that does not do well in the show ring. Unfortunately, many judges have a tendency to look at the wrong end of the lead and award the prizes based on who has the dog in-hand rather than whether or not the dog is of merit. I know a woman who co-owns a lovely Border Terrier bitch with another woman and they both show in "Bred-By", with SISTERS, mind you, and the other woman's dogs ALWAYS finish before the first woman's, even if the first woman has the better puppy/dog/bitch (she does really well when the second woman isn't in the ring). Add to all this the fact that for years everyone wanted their show dogs to "grow up real fast" (especially breeds like the Rottie, Dobie and Goldie, etc.) and you have the beginnings of the dysplasia problems. Look at the American-bred German Shepherd show dogs -- they couldn't herd a dandelion puff if they had to. They have been bred in recent years to be so low-slung in the backend that they are practically gaiting on the back of the foot almost to the hock. We need to get back to the "functional" aspects of the dogs and worry less about the "beauty" aspects or who has the dog on the lead. Okay, sorry, that's one of my soapbox topics.

**KYS** · 12-01-2000, 08:49 PM

ktreva52,

In my humble opinion, a breeder
who breeds because they are in love of a specific line/line breeds indiscreiminately regardless of health, in my book they are no better than a puppy mill or a back yard breeder. I would not classify them as reputable breeders no mater how well their dogs do in a show ring or how well known their kennels are.
To me reputable breeders means so much more than just earning a championship on their dogs.

**ktreva52** · 12-02-2000, 09:00 PM

KYS, I so heartily agree with you on that. I have advised many a potential dog owner to check out the breeders of their choice and look for information on how often the bitch is bred, health guarantees, and whether or not they will take an animal of their breeding back even later in life if something happens and the new owner cannot keep the dog (God forbid). I know a woman that breeds Akitas and because her name was on co-ownerships, the AKC investigated HER because 6 or 7 of her co-owns had been bred. I've also known others that never got investigated. Weird world, hmmmm?

**carrie** · 12-03-2000, 08:18 AM

ktreva52, what a weird coincidence - I was looking at some American breeders sites a couple of days ago and I was horrified at the GSD's. I have to say that the problems do tend to start with "good" breeders. They are in the business of winning shows and will breed dogs to suit the trend of the moment.

**KYS** · 12-03-2000, 10:17 AM

Winning shows is important, but that does not mean a Judge or a breeder should alter the Standard that was set for their breed.
A good reputable breeder/good Judge does NOT breed or pick a dog because of the trend of a moment.
There is a breed standard set, that has been
altered through the years by
some breeders/judges (does not mean they are good/reputable), and Judges who have put up these dogs because it was the popular thing to do, or becuase they mis-interpet the breeds standard, or because......
There are other reasons why dogs get their
championships who do not deserve it.
Yes, The GSD is a great example how a
standard was altered through out the years.

[This message has been edited by KYS (edited December 03, 2000).]

**ktreva52** · 12-03-2000, 10:31 AM

Carrie: It just makes me heartsick to see what they've done with the GSDs, but I believe the trend is beginning to reverse SLOWLY. The European practice of not docking is slowly taking root here, too.

KYS: Yes, there are standards and many of them are close to 100 years old. BUT, it depends a great deal on the judge's interpretation of the standard and the old, "you scratch my back...." thing. There's a great deal of money involved in the dog show world and prestige and reputation are built on winning (no matter what) which brings new clients to the handler's "stable". Many of the judges have been/are professional handlers and part of the "good ole boys" club (even females) and sometimes ethics get bent or broken. This is not to say that all judges are not doing a good job, but as I said, sometimes they look at the wrong end of the lead (and would deny it vehemently). Oddly, enough, they have to serve an apprenticeship to be able to judge a breed, so I guess it depends partly on who they serve that apprenticeship with. It just perpetuates......We've really gotten off the topic, haven't we? Sorry, Logan, how is Lilly doing today? Does cooler weather affect her more?

**KYS** · 12-03-2000, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by carrie:
I have to say that the problems do tend to start with "good" breeders. They are in the business of winning shows and will breed dogs to suit the trend of the moment.>>>>>>>>>>

Their was a news segment that was aired in parts of the U.S. this year, that had a segment from purchasing, adopting, shelters, health, puppymills etc.etc.
It started out with undercover news-reporters along with 2 vets visiting puppymills, and kennels and petshops etc.
The show covered eveything from start to finished from finding a puppy, health to visiting the over filled kill shelters.
It was an excellent show and an eye opener.
They also mentioned stats:
I do not remember the persentage, but
the number 1 and 2 problems were
the BYB and the puppymills/petshops.
The smallest persentage came from the breeders (good/bad) involved with the dog fancy who showed their dogs.

**KYS** · 12-03-2000, 11:04 AM

ktreva52,

I agree with you 100%.
I just do not think they should be classified as good judges or breeders.

Sorry Ktreva and all,
I will also stick to the topic too
and my hands are now zippered shut.
(for now)

[This message has been edited by KYS (edited December 03, 2000).]

**lhg0962** · 12-03-2000, 12:15 PM

Hi everyone. Thanks for asking about Lilly, Ktreva. She is having a wonderful day. It snowed again and she and Honey have had a great time eating the snow and running laps around the yard. They are messing with the cat right now and looking out the front door at the snow falling. I'm sure a nap is just about to start!

I like the way this topic has gone. Its interesting to think about the "breeding" qualities of the dogs. I have concentrated on pet qualities, even though both Honey and Lilly are registered Golden Retrievers. I had both of them spayed when they reached five months old, as I never intended to breed or show them. Lilly's hips would probably make her a poor candidate for either thing, and although I believe Honey to be quite beautiful herself, she has a horrible "cow lick" on the back of her head. The hair literally parts itself down her neck. It is so cute and we love her that much more for it.

I've heard so much about overbreeding, and mostly where Cocker Spaniels are concerned. I think that my Kaycee, who died last year, was an exception as she was calm, all of her life. Most of the others I have seen are wired. Don't stop talking about it. It is very interesting.

Logan

**ktreva52** · 12-04-2000, 06:30 PM

I have to say that this is the type of thing the Jack Russell Terrier Club fought for a long time. One of their rules of memebership was to never register or show a JRT in AKC. Of course, AKC finally got them into the books and they have been approved in the Terrier Group rather than the Miscellaneous Group. The fact of the matter is, JRTs are more a type (or two or three) rather than a true "breed". There are the short-legged ones and the tall ones, rough coated and smooth and broken. But, the main concern was that they would be bred for looks rather than working ability (they're SERIOUS vermin killers) and that will probably happen on down the road. For now, though, they are few in number in the AKC. The same was true when we started with the Australian Cattle Dog breed 7 or so years ago. Few around and majors were difficult to find. We finally ended up selling our dog to a man that was looking for a good show dog and Bubby (Legend's Mystic Wizard) was a very handsome dog, but Brad finally had to put him with a professional handler to finish him. We all thought that sucked, because he was such a typey dog, but couldn't get the points to finish without some "help". My mother shows Border Terriers and my daughter shows various dogs as a semi-pro handler. She just acquired a Vizsla puppy and will be showing him next year and we are beginning to see that same sort of thing in these breeds as well. Still, what they've done with the GSD and even Collies and Cockers is just sad. Lassie would hang her head to see Collies in the show ring now. They have very narrow heads and small eyes and I sometimes wonder about the intelligence level. These were dogs that were originally bred to work at a distance from the handler with whistle signals or hand signals or both and were able to make some decisions on their own about handling the sheep, etc. Now, I wonder if they'd even have a clue. Well, I just did it again, didn't I??? I'm sorry.

I'm glad Lilly and Honey are enjoying the snow so much. It sounds like Lilly has been helped a lot by medication for her pain and is just back to enjoying life in general. Hooray for you, Logan, I know she's grateful for the relief.

**carrie** · 12-05-2000, 01:35 AM

Yep, sure is sad! We lived in Germany about five years ago and they were just coming out of a dreadful trend for very sloping GSD's. I have noticed since we came back to the UK that there are more and more big boned, large and sturdy GSD's around with strong hocks and backs and it always makes me smile to see them. It also seems to me that they are becoming bolder, more confident puppies that come forward to meet you instead of the shy nervous type that seemed to be everywhere a few years ago. Sadly, not all the people seem as great as the dogs!
My point about "good" breeders was that they are seen by the general public to be the best breeders to go to as they have won in the ring so often. This is supposed to be an indication of the quality of animal they breed.

I'm so glad the girls are doing well Logan!

**shais_mom** · 12-05-2000, 09:14 AM

Hi all! Wanted to inform you about a website that might help Lilly, go to www.designinghealth.com
It is from the makers of Missing Link, a food supplement that is advertised in Dog Fancy magazine. Just reading the testimonials I think Lilly would benfit from it. You can also get it in human, cat, equine,and avian form! You can order off the site or use the store locator to find a store near you.
Good luck!

**AdoreMyDogs** · 12-05-2000, 09:44 AM

I use the missing link plus (with glocusomine) and it's amazing. Their coats are wonderful, they are alot higher energy and my pugs allergies are much better and both of them shed much less, my aussie hardly sheds at all. Another product that I use on my dogs is called Prozyme, which is a plant based enzyme that helps absorb all the nutrients from their food and their supplements. Both are wonderful products for general health, they are said to hugely benefit arthritic, algergic animals and they are not too expensive at all.