A Offensive Webpage

[Soledad]

Veegan -

I respect and agree with some of your points. The state of farming in the US is pretty horrendous. Animals are not being treated humanely.

However, I think it's pretty wrong and selfish to make your cat a vegan because of your own politics/views. Just because cats are domesticated does not mean that evolution has made them natural vegans.

[veegan]

yeah Im not surprised. Im sure a lot of people feel that way. But what is selfish about it? They get all the nutirents and everything they need to be healthy, and they arent getting all the crap that is in most pet food. Why should I sacrifice the lives of millions of other animals so my cats can eat meat when they dont even need to? If there was no alternative pet food, then Id feed them meat, but there is a safe & healthy alternative, so why should I continue to support the meat industry?

The reason I posted the link to vegancats.com was because in their faq it addresses all those issues.:

"Q: I am vegan, but I feel it is wrong to force my own morality onto my cats and dogs.

A: Is it really more wrong to ask your cat or dog to eat a healthy vegetarian diet than it is to subject countless cows, chickens and pigs to the brutal torture of the factory farm?
When you purchase slaughterhouse products, you are increasing the profitability of animal slaughter by contributing directly to the consumer demand for its products. In so doing, you are undermining the goals of the pro-animal movement and contributing to animal cruelty in a way that is equally as direct and meaningful as if you were buying hamburgers."


"Q: Isn't meat their natural diet?

A: Dogs and cats live in the uniquely unnatural environment of our homes. While “in nature” they would hunt, food now magically appears twice daily in their bowls. They are given medicine to cure illnesses, and are surgically sterilized to control their reproduction. Why insist that their diet alone remain “natural”- especially when it must come at the expense of other animals’ lives?

What’s Really in Meat-Based Pet Food:

Carcasses of euthanized cats & dogs (some with flea collars and containing sodium pentobarbital used for euthasia).
Unwanted insecticides and pharmaceuticals from diseased livestock (complete with plastic ID tags).
Rotting supermarket rejects including plastic and styrofoam packaging.
Animal parts deemed “unfit for human consumption” (heads, legs, tongues, intestines, esophagi, beaks, feathers, bones, blood, lungs, ligaments, etc.)
Diseased and cancerous body parts from the 4 D’s: dead, dying, diseased, & disabled factory-farmed animals"

Im not going to be stupid about it; I will moniter them and if they get sick, or show any signs of abnormal behaviour, etc, I will switch foods. But the majority of pets on vegan diets are just as healthy, and many people have reported their pets being healthier than before.

[Soledad]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think you're a bad person. I just think it's misguided. I mean, if you don't want to feed a cat meat, maybe you shouldn't have a cat.

I also have a hard time accepting information about veganism from sites like PETA. They obviously have a vested interest in promoting veganism and won't go into the downsides.

I'm sure you love your animals and will do this responsibly, though.

P.S. I thought this site was interesting. Vegetarian Myths

[veegan]

oh I know. but hey, I think youre the one whos misguided. lol so.. oh well. different opinions I guess!

I understand what you mean, if I dont want to support the meat industry, then why have pets that "require" meat? Thats a good point, and Im glad you brought it up, and yes I have thought about that before. First of all, I wasnt vegan or vegetarian when I got my cats. And second of all, the main issue is, there IS an alternative. Just like theres alternatives for humans, there is also for cats & dogs now; Humans are not required to eat meat to live, and now cats & dogs arent either because of all the vegan/vegetarian pet foods avaliable. So if its not a necessity to support the meat industry, then why do it? If its not required to kill other animals for their flesh, then why do it? Now, I would never have a pet snake (even though I love them) because I couldnt stand feeding it live animals. I have fish, but I still feed them meat in their food because theres no alternative. Do you see what I mean?? :O I know we will probably never agree, but I hope you see my point a little better now. :/

And finally, when did I EVER mention PETA? I didnt even post any information from PETA (except for ONE of the FOUR veg kid links I posted)..

[Soledad]

oh I know. but hey, I think youre the one whos misguided. lol so.. oh well. different opinions I guess!

Hehehe...how true!

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you quoted PETA, but that by relying on pro-vegan sites for info, you are getting one side of the story. Did you see the site I posted? It raised some interesting points, though I don't know much about the author or any other background info. I thought it was interesting though.

I don't think that the vegan products available today are suitable alternatives. ESPECIALLY for cats. Veganism is a lofty ambition, but I think it's too timely, costly and bothersome for your average family. There is also an intriguiging economic argument against it that I posted in the first link.

[veegan]

"Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you quoted PETA, but that by relying on pro-vegan sites for info, you are getting one side of the story. Did you see the site I posted? It raised some interesting points, though I don't know much about the author or any other background info. I thought it was interesting though."

thats a good point, and yes I did go to the link. I agree, its only best/fair to discuss both sides of an issue. Yes it did raise some interesting points, most of which I was already aware. Its important to look at all sides of an issue and to make decisions on your own, and to seek out information from several sources. Which is what I did (and still do actually b/c Im still learning about veganism), when I was first exploring going vegan. What I read of that site was basically clarifing many of the issues that are often stated too simply. Ill go read it more thoroughly later. But also like you said, whos to say how true it is.. :-/ (I dont mean to bash it by saying that, I just mean I really dont know b/c I have no idea who wrote it or anything.)

And you are right it is costly, and can be bothersome, because most of the vegan pet foods avaliable require you to make the meals yourself.

[Housh]

This is a very interesting discussion and topic. It deserves a thread of it's own in pet general or pet health.

I think the fact we can discuss and debate these issues is very important.

Misinformation and ignorance are the main causes of all the world's problems.

as we have a lot to say i wish we can do this in it's own appropriate thread (funny, this coming from the person that asked the questions in the first place )

if it is okay with you guys i'm going to start a thread in pet general about this because I think this is very stimulating topic. i'll bump this thread with the link to the thread once i make it.

here it is: http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...threadid=24485

[RubyMutt]

I don't see any problem with having a pet on a vegan diet if they are still getting their needed nutrients. If someone has done the research and knows what to feed the animal to keep it healthy than that's fine in my eyes. That's wonderful actually...

[Soledad]

Rubymutt -

I think the problem is that there is still much debate on whether it actually does deliver the right nutrients, etc.

Veegan -

You found that site simplistic? I thought it was relatively well thought out. It had actually documented its sources which is way more than most nutrition sites do.

On an interesting side note: what do you make of the recent research showing that high protein diets do not alter the health of the dieters? It was set up to bunk Atkins' theory, but ended up supporting it. What do you make of all the recent research that shows high carbohydrate diets contribute to cancer and heart disease?

And just to wrap up, I'm really appreciative that Veegan has been so open, honest, measured and understanding. It's hard finding people who can actually discuss these things without getting personal.

[veegan]

"You found that site simplistic? I thought it was relatively well thought out. It had actually documented its sources which is way more than most nutrition sites do."

oh my goodness no! lol thats not what I meant at all! :O It was extremely well thought out indeed! I was saying that a lot of the myths it discusses, are just clarifications of statements that a lot of people (vegetarians) state too simply. for example, the thing about veganism being the solution to world hunger. I mean obviously its a much bigger issue than that, and just by people becoming veg wont magically solve it, but the fact is that livestock requires a LOT more resources (water, grain, space, etc) to raise than it does to grow plants. and those resources could be being used more efficiently to feed the world's population. So yeah, that was a good website, not simplistic at all! lol

As for that research, it is interesting. However Id like/need to know more. What do you mean "doesnt alter the health of the dieters"? :O If you know of where I could get info about the studies Id be interesting in checking it out. Because Ive also read (in books, not from PETA haha ) about several studies done that show high protein, & high cholestorl (whooa cant spell that word lol) diets cause higher risks of certain cancers, and heatdisease, osteoporosis, etc. Its kinda confusing because I dont think theres really been any GOOD studies to prove either way, (that high protein or high carb diets are better or worse) ya know?

And thanks for that comment, thats probably the best compliment Ive ever recieved. lol

[Soledad]

Actually, I think there is a study out there about high carb diets leading to cancer.

I find the whole topic of nutrition pretty fascinating as it is so political and complex.

One thing I will always respect about the vegan/vegetarian movement: it forces people to be more aware about their food (where it comes from, who's responsible, etc.). Far too many Americans don't think about where their food comes from and ignore some of the horrible farming practices that are going on. I think it also encourages people to actually COOK (OMG!!!) their own food instead of putting all of this pre-packaged, processed garbage (which I think is the real health danger) junk into their bodies.

[veegan]

"Far too many Americans don't think about where their food comes from and ignore some of the horrible farming practices that are going on. I think it also encourages people to actually COOK (OMG!!!) their own food instead of putting all of this pre-packaged, processed garbage (which I think is the real health danger) junk into their bodies."

so true!

[Vio&Juni]

I will never be (probably) a vegetarian, but I don't eat anymore ... now I have to think how I call it... unhealthy, unnatural meat, meaning, I eat only meat of naturally fed and naturally grown animals. And I only wear cow leather or sheep leather (only shoes) - animals that are killed to be eaten, so it's not a waste of their life just for fur or skin.
I am sure that it's both unhealthy for us to eat those stuffed with different chemicals animals and cruel to them to be grown in two months to reach the size of a 9-10 months animal.
My stomach gets sick from the thought of eating fois gras, so, I guess it's up to each one's feelings. If you feel it's wrong to do it, it's your decision and it's right. I could not live with the thought that a small chinchilla was killed just for me to wear it on my shoulders, esp. that it's not very cold here in the winter.

[smokey the elder]

I admire that you want to prepare vegan food for your cat. However, they require certain nutrients such as taurine, an amino acid that does not exist in plants. If this amino acid is missing from their diet, bad things (I think blindness among others) can occur. You can probably get taurine. However, there may be other (unknown) nutrients present only in animal products that cats need.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong (to quote Dennis Miller.)

[Denyce]

Veegan,

Have you spoken to a vet or an animal nutritionist about why cats need, yes I say NEED meat in their diet?? Just because plants have protein in them does NOT mean all of it is AVAILABLE to the body. I wish so much you would take some classes in animal nutrition before you do something so irresponsible as to feed your cat a vegetarian diet. Also while you are at it you should explore the meaning of these words.....Herbivore, Omnivore and Carnivore. Cows are Herbivores, Humans are Omnivores and Cats are Carnivores. There are some very good reasons for these classifications. Cats digestive systems are not able to properly break down plant proteins and utilize them. Humans can do so BETTER than cats but not as well as Cows. Cats need a very high amount of protein in their diets to live long HEALTHY lives. And Smokey the Elder was right in commenting about Taurine. It is ESSENTIAL for a cats good health. It is linked with thier vision. In fact not too long ago I was watching an Animal Precinct or Animal Cops I am not sure which on Animal Planet and they had rescued numerous cats that were BLIND because the person while being well meaning was feeding them a vegetarian diet. They were not getting the Taurine they need.

I have to believe that you care for animals and love your cat because you would not be taking the stand against potential animal abuse if you didn't. However, I really wish you would do further research with a nutritionist or at the very least take some classes at a local college or university about animal nutrition before you believe everything you read.