Breeder Impressions

[borzoimom]

True- but I am looking for deception. Its a old government management trick I learned. .. Also like if you pause- someone will be compelled to fill in the silence- usually saying more than you would have asked.
I could not possible put all we talked about- but I hit the main frame.

[applesmom]

The trouble with that is the for-profit breeders know exactly what the public wants to hear. They've repeated their mantra so often that they know it by heart and can give their spiel without ever having to stop and draw a breath. They're also masters of preying on emotions!

My opinion on BYB such as this and puppy mills is that they don't breed to standard and it doesn't bother them in the least that millions of unwanted dogs are being put to death every year. They all consider their dogs to be special. If they'd all just stop breeding for even two years and insist on spay/neuter contracts the problem would be solved!

I met someone a couple of years ago that was breeding a miniature breed. It didn't matter to her that their bite was off a little or the sire was cryptorchid. They were such sweet dogs. She didn't think she was a BYB because she raised her dogs in the house and made sure they were well socialized, wormed and had all their shots! She was absolutely convinced that her dogs didn't need health testing as they were completely healthy otherwise.

Naturally we got off on the wrong foot when I insisted that what she was doing was wrong. The next two litters were nightmares. Some of the pups were born blind, others had bites so bad they couldn't even nurse and some were cryptorchid and others monorchid. At that point she realized I was right and had all of her dogs speutered. Now she's the one that's discouraging pet breeding and recommending that anyone that insists on breeding breed to the standard and also insisting on health testing for all dogs that are to be bred.

[borzoimom]

I hear what you are saying applesmom, but I think we also need to add the difference from a "hobby breeder", and a " backyard" breeder. A " hobby " breeder is one that does the genetic testings on their dogs also, may not be actively showing, but dedicated to their breed, and breeding only good representatives of the breed.
The " typical backyard " breeder- is one that well I have a male and female cocker spaniel- what the heck- we could have puppies ... There is no attempt in either good parents of the pups, or an attempt to get good representatives of the breed. Shelties are a perfect example of this. Shelties can easily be too big- not the smaller ones seen in shows, but more of a working sheltie. Size aside- at least some try to make the dogs healthy- others do not-
Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

[applesmom]

Now posing question at you ( I already know my answer..) BUT- IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

My opinion would be that neither one of them legitimately has the best interests of the breed at heart and neither one of them should be breeding at all! They're both unethical BYB!

The entire outlook on the ethical breeding of purebred dogs is changing. The majority of purebreds were originally developed for a purpose and were only sold or placed with those who would could appreciate all the effort, time, money and record keeping that went into developing that breed.

With the increasing demand for purebreds and the current attitude in breeding; if this keeps up it won't be much longer until it will be difficult to find a good example of many breeds anywhere.

One good example is the Maltese! Their popularity made them a prime money maker for puppy mills and pet shop sales and now the internet is overrun with ads for Maltese breeders.. The problems within this breed are horrendous! Proof of this disaster can be found by reading the Maltese Only forum that's literally filled with horror stories of beloved pets suffering from horrible inherited defects or turning out to be mixed breeds. Mixed breeds that were sold as purebreds for tremendous prices and represented to be purebred by supposedly "ethical" breeders.

I don't have the answer; but I am convinced that even with meticulous health testing; if a breeder isn't breeding according to standard and also to maintain the purpose that the breed was originally developed for; they have no business breeding, period!

The responsibility also lies with the purchasers of these puppies. They're not only encouraging unethical breeding practices; they're also contributing to the downfall of the breed. If there were no gullible buyers; there would be no careless or unethical breeders!

[borzoimom]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

[applesmom]

I'm not familiar with the height differences in Shelties. How many inches in height are we talking about?

The current trend in the majority of larger breeds seems to be an overall increase in height and weight. I've often wondered if it may have something to do with the constantly improving changes in diet over the years since the breeds were developed.

When the older breeds were being developed, it was taken for granted that nursing bitches would be thin which often led to improper nourishment for the puppies. Nowadays breeders are so much more aware and they see to it that the bitch is well nourished, provided with the proper vitamins and that all pups have equal time at the milk bar. When they're weaned they're fed good quality puppy chow, not left to scrounge for leftover table scraps.

Dietary improvements through the years have most certainly had the same effect on humans so maybe it's time to rethink the height standards in some breeds!

[borzoimom]

Good point about diet- could be.. The standard for a sheltie says The Shetland Sheepdog should stand between 13 and 16 inches at the shoulder. Note: Height is determined by a line perpendicular to the ground from the top of the shoulder blades, the dog standing naturally, with forelegs parallel to line of measurement.

Disqualifications-- Heights below or above the desired size range are to be disqualified from the show ring.


Most of the shelties in agility are over 16 inch... hmmm.. The last show I saw on tv ( sorry can not travel right now) but the bulk of the shelties were in the 16" higher classes... Co-incidence- maybe... I wonder how big Aslan is- let me go to the other place and ask her...
*** And please note- I am just using the sheltie as an example. ***

[applesmom]

GSP's are 21 to 23 for bitches and 23 to 25 for dogs. It's rare to see a 25 inch dog in the ring nowadays. Most of the bitches are 24 or 25 now.

There is no height disqualification but they should be penalized. Howdy was a good 27 inches and it didn't slow him down a bit.

[borzoimom]

Well its like my breed- the standard says at least, then says males are usually. Shoot- what they state- that would be considered a small borzoi, but the standard says " at least height so in so..)

[bckrazy]

All I wanted to make sure if that June recieved proof of the parents being cleared for all genetic health problems. Even if the parents are a wreck conformationally, the worst thing possible would her little puppy ending up with a painful health problem because of poor breeding. Of course I would never buy from a breeder who didn't show/work/health test completely, and of course I do not feel anyone else should.

I didn't quite understand... are the parents certified or are they not?

And, I apologize for judging, but I am vehemently against BYB's and I just wanted to encourage her to look for a reputable breeder & make sure she wasn't being tricked.

I talked to an Aussie breeder when I was looking into Aussies about a year ago. She was awesome at talking on the phone, she had her story straight completely, she sounded like a very reputable breeder & claimed that her dogs were all "healthy" and "tested" & that she loved the breed and bred for hobby, and went to shows when she could. Then, while talking to some one from Aussie rescue, they brought up that she's a notorious BYB that produces a large amount of the double merle pups being dumped in area shelters. She has talked to many many people I'm sure, so she had her story down really well and she could've tricked me if I didn't demand proof of health certs & showing.

Anyway, evaluating that she's a lover of the breed and just has two "nice" dogs, but cannot be bothered to put in the effort to prove them conformationally or with health certs, I would classify her as a BYB. NICE people can still be BYB's, and can STILL be harming the breed.

Im sorry about saying "the board" is apathetic. I was referring to how it seems like some newer members encourage buying a puppy, regardless of the breeder.

[Shelteez2]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

You are right there are many over sized shelties out there. Under sized ones too. Shelties are still a relatively new breed (in the grande scheme of things.... compared to say a labrador retriever) so they don't always breed true to type. Size is something many many good sheltie breeders struggle with.

I have two shelties. My female is from what I consider a byb. I didn't know better at the time. The breeder told us she wanted to get into breeding shelties. She had her female and used an outside stud. The dogs and pups were registered and the pups were sold on a spay/neuter contract.
I consider her a byb because the dogs weren't health tested and they were pet quality. The dam was in size, I don't know about the stud dog. My girl is 17" tall.

My male sheltie is from a very good breeder. She tests her breeding dogs and shows them in conformation. Pets are sold on spay/neuter contracts. My boys parents were both in size. The dam was 15" and the sire about 15.5". My boy is over sized. He is 18" tall. That's why I have him actually. The breeder was keeping him to show, but he went over size so he was sold as a pet. This leads to your other scenario

IF there is a person, with two shelties, both too big out of standard, but checked the hips, hearts, thyroids, - and breeds them- does this still fall under as a "backyard " breeder, or now 'upgraded' to a hobby breeder?

I would clasify them as a byb. They are not trying to improve the breed as size is such an issue in the breed to begin with.

[wolfsoul]

I know alot of breeders that are far from reputable but can certainly make themselves seem responsible. People have to remember that unless you know the person, the person's dogs, the dog's lines, and the dogs they've produced -- they know nothing. Health testing and working/showing is only part of the picture.

A dog in itself is a dog -- what the dog PRODUCES on the other hand, is of more importance. I've seen healthy dogs produce bad health, I've seen well-tempered dogs produce poor temperaments, I've seen beautiful dogs produce poorly conformed dogs....Often times, the dog's references don't mean a heck of alot. Give me a groenendael pedigree and I can point out to you which dogs produced epilepsy, which dogs produced hip dysplasia, which dogs produced cataracts, and were all healthy themselves. I didn't realise, until I got into breeding, that a dog's pedigree is more than just a list of achievements and titles behind your dog. It needs to be researched. Now I can look back in my pedigree and tell you which dogs had health problems, which dogs produced health problems, which dogs were not perfect temperamentally, and which dogs were not perfect conformationally -- THERE IS NO SUCH THING as a perfect pedigree. Every line has something in it's background. And if someone asks me what health problems lie behind my dogs' pedigrees, I will tell them. The goal is to produce something better.

As far as size, my friend has been breeding shelties for show her entire life. Sometimes big shelties happen. She had once bred a male out of a 14 inch female and a 13 inch male -- the pup turned into a whopping 20 inch sheltie. Her last litter was out of a 14 inch male and a female just over 14 -- Out of five pups (now 10 months old) she has one 13 inch male, 2 females just under 14, male just over 15, and a male that is now at 16 inches and will go oversize. My co-breeder's dog, Jasper, is 27.5 inches, out of Jake, a 25.5 inch male, and Annie, a 24 inch female, both out of average sized lines. The other pups were all average sized. A badly conformed dog is not the sign of a bad breeder -- Visa is one beautiful girl and has produced one beautiful pup, but I imagine she will have some poor looking pups in the future -- her siblings were not nearly as nice as she. Just the way things work.

Not only that, but sometiems there are pretty dogs that shouldn't be bred, and "ugly" dogs that should. Jag is not perfect conformationally by any means, but she will likely still be bred for temperament reasons. She is square and she has a typey head. Bred to a dog that can strengthen her conformation weaknesses, she can still have beautiful pups that have a good temperament to match.

Things are not always what they seem -- don't just jump at the opportunity to get a dog from a breeder who health certifies, works, and shows. It isn't that simple, though it should be. There are plenty of other things that determine a good breeder, and you need to ask other breeders and people who know the breeder in order to really know what the breeder is all about. Meeting past offspring is also a big help. I never ever trust the breeder first.

Just my two cents..

[applesmom]

Great post Wolfsoul!

A dog might look great (or not so great) in photo's but nothing beats a good hands-on evaluation!

[agilityk9trainer]

I agree- but you know as well as I do, alot of agility shelties are over sized.. ( no I am not talking about anyones shelties.. just making a point...) And the people should not have bred them that size...

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

[borzoimom]

Actually, you see more undersized agility shelties than oversized ones. As has already been posted, you can get an undersized sheltie pup and an oversized sheltie pup in the same litter. It's the reason being undersized or oversized will lead to dismisal in the show ring. They are trying to get the breed more standardized in size.

However, many agility enthusiasts prefer the smaller sheltie. In AKC, the 12" jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 10" to 14". Many sheltie agility folks want to jump in the 12: height, and get a pup that they know will be small. The 16" inch jump height allows for dogs ranging in height from 14" to 18".

You asked how big Aslan, my MACH sheltie, is. He's undersized at 12.38". However, my color-headed white, Jericho, is oversized at 16.5". Both had parents that were well within the standard for size.

I don't know any breeders who intentionally breed for large agility shelties, although I could see a demand for small agility shelties. They are very popular.

OH MY STARS!! WELCOME AGILITYK9TRAINER!!!! OH PT'Rs she has the most amazing agility shelties- WELCOME WELCOME!!
That is amazing you see the opposite of smaller shelties verses larger ones. You attend alot more agility trails that I do, and your observation would be more the norm than the my observations would be in this area. Also, the flyball competitions they just broadcasted had some awfully big shelties. Do you find flyball teams using bigger shelties or smaller ones?