White Shepherds

[borzoimom]

I do have a question about a foster that my friend is holding for me.

Do you think he is a White German Shepherd Mix or a Husky Mix? He's about a year old.



Sorry but I thought I'd ask you since you know the breed.

Husky mix. blue eye in a white shepherd is uncommon, and the stop in the muzzle is not a shepherd but more husky.

[jackfrost]

on a side note, i've read the book written by the man himself Max von Stephanitz back in 1925 and even then he said too much white was unacceptable and white's were not desireable. I think I'll take the word right from the horses mouth so to speak on this one as to wether or not all white shepherds were ever desireable in the breed or not.

[wolfsoul]

I had a white shepherd and a white shepherd mix when I was younger. My coloured GSD had a white shepherd mother. My mix is still going on strong, living with my dad's old roomate --- just some arthritis but nothing bad. My white shepherd pup had to be PTS at 6 months due to severe panosteitis, and my GSD was PTS a couple of years ago due to cancer. Great dogs, I've always loved GSDs, no matter what colour.

From what I have read, the original reason the white shepherd was finally disallowed was due to them blending into the sheep too easily? Is this true?

Lilacdragon, there is nothing wrong with the White shepherd. While I disagree with creating "toys" and "minis" of different breeds, colour does not affect the structore or ability of a dog. It may not be recognised by AKC as a different breed (though they do have the option for white colouring on the registration papers of the German shepherd dog), they are recognised by their own registries and are able to show under those registries. UKC is nothing like the ConKC or some of the other designer registries.

It's like laekenois. They are the same breed as the other varieties, but not only does AKC seperate them into breeds, but they exclude the laekenois -- all because of coat type. Does this mean that US breeders shouldn't breed laekenois? Because they are a "genetic throwback?"

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul - great post. To answer your question no that was not the reason, that was the excuse by some. Some said they were the cause of the diluting colors(proven later to be false by genetic testing) some said it was because tehy were the cause of all teh genetic deseases including blindness and so forth(agian proven false by genetic tests) Soem gave the excuse you just stated which is because they blend into teh sheep. Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown. Because of dirt and feces and so forth. A White Shepherd like Sheena would no more blend into the flock then Luca would(our black GSD). So agian that excuse was proven false. Some also used th eexcuse that they are not stable in temperment. Well obviously that is false too. I could go on and on.

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd. It was people's opinions only that got the dog listed as a fault and they had no provable reason for doing so. That is why in several other countries they have now been listed as their own breed. There are many breeds that have seperated into seperate breeds based on coat types or colors. The white shepherd is just doing the same thing.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[wolfsoul]

Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown.

I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol.

[CathyBogart]

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question.

[jackfrost]

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd.

I guess you missed the part about it being a fault from its inception way back when by the founders. They faulted white, the rest of the world faults a white, and just because they were show within the AKC doesn't really prove anything. WHy is the AKC standard different than the SV standard (original ruling body)?? Read the book written by the man himself, white was considered a fault back in 1925 by the man that created them, why would I or should somebody else think that just because the AKC allowed them to be shown change my mind?? THe AKC hasn't done much in the way of "building" a better GSD.

I don't really care what the reasons were, but they were cut out of breeding programs in the beginning. The reason doesn't matter, but what it created then was a very very small gene pool in which to create whites later by those that chose to go against the standard and do so. And considering the US has been propagating the AKC GSD's with a very small gene pool to begin with, their selection to get white's in this country was even smaller.

[borzoimom]

honey you know who I am in judging- your babies are beautiful and we will talk later okay????

[borzoimom]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

[wolfsoul]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole

AMEN!!! WELL PUT!

[jackfrost]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

I haven't failed to see that, my point is that White's were never a part of the GSD, they never were accepted, except here in america(funny how we have to split a breed everytime it comes to america but that's another story). Every white breeder claims it has its root's in the German SHepherd a dog known for its courage, it's nerve, its strength, its adaptability, etc. White's were never a part of that history. SO call it like it is, you have the cast offs of a noble breed used to create a white american shepherd. SO yo usee when you are making claims that white's are the same as gsd's just different colors, the rules created by the founder most defineatly have something to do with this, seeing as they've been selected against in the entire world since their beginning.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

If you're going to claim they work just as well and are the same as a GSD, and I see ZERO working titles with any of your dogs, your darn right it's part of the discussion. Just as with anyone breeding any working dog claiming they can work and have this and have that, and yet have never proven their dogs can do any of it. Really big pet peeve of mine. This isn't about white vs others, its about unsubstantiated claims made by breeders, it would be no different looking at an AKC show line website and seeing all these champions that have never had the courage, or nerve tested by anyone.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.

[bluebird]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

Wow this is really exciting! I haven't been reading these discussions for very long and haven't posted very much, I mostly just read. I could tell that you know a lot about dogs but didn't know that you are a judge borzoimom. I'm hoping to get into showing too as soon as I get my German Shepherd pup and it is old enough. I have been going to dog shows with my aunt since I was a little kid, she has shepherds and Cairn Terriers. I wonder if you've ever judged her dogs and we might have met, her name is Bonnie. Maybe we will get to meet at one of the shows and you will get to judge my puppy when she grows up. That would be cool!