Shock collars

[flip195]

When every other path has been followed and the dog is still not responding, a static shock to get their attention is not cruel, nor is it abuse. Continuous use would be.

The dog I used the collar on was a 10 year old stray that the shelter felt would never find a home. He was in poor shape when I got him and had a bad habit of jumping 6 foot fences. I finally got him healthy, housetrained, contained and accepting of people. I was his last hope and the neighbor next door was threatening his existence. This was a last ditch effort. And I don't feel guilty about using it in this instance. I have not needed it on the other three dogs I have had.

In a perfect world, the shock collar would never be necessary. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I've learned to be less judgmental as I've gotten older. And I never say "Never".

Rule of thumb should be if you won't use it on a 2 year old child you don't use it on your dog plain and simple.
Training usingf positve reinforcement may take longer but works better.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I HATE shock collars and never recommend them. When I started training Dixie for hunting, those who had been doing it and were considered pros recommended I use a shock collar to train her. I was told that she would never be much of a hunter unless I did. I refused and instead worked her using positive reinforcement and clicker training. It may of taken a bit longer (not much) than shocking her but if you could see her hunting and the love she has for it, it was worth the extra time. She now has her Senior Hunter Title! Many of the dogs trained using collars have fear built in and it shows.

I believe shock collars are the lazy persons way out of training positively.

[JenBKR]

Rule of thumb should be if you won't use it on a 2 year old child you don't use it on your dog plain and simple.
Training usingf positve reinforcement may take longer but works better.

So, how then should I have gotten my 93 lb. german shepherd to walk by my side and not run away without coming home, nor pulling my arm out of it's socket? I would not use a prong on a 2 year old, but I did on my dog, under my trainer's supervision, and it worked extremely well. Perhaps positive reinforcement would have worked eventually, I suppose in the meantime I would just not give him walks and exercise. Then I would have been a bad doggie parent for not giving him exercise. Um, ok......

[flip195]

So, how then should I have gotten my 93 lb. german shepherd to walk by my side and not run away without coming home, nor pulling my arm out of it's socket? I would not use a prong on a 2 year old, but I did on my dog, under my trainer's supervision, and it worked extremely well. Perhaps positive reinforcement would have worked eventually, I suppose in the meantime I would just not give him walks and exercise. Then I would have been a bad doggie parent for not giving him exercise. Um, ok......

15 mins a day sit heel work, in an enclosed area,

until he got it right,
make the dog sit when he does praise reward,
Take one step with the heel command and sit again & reward.
Gradually increase the steps taking always start and finish with sit.
start and end training with a game... make it fun... never work more than 15 mins at a time.

German shepherd should pick it up in about a week of 15 min sessions max.

[JenBKR]

15 mins a day sit heel work, in an enclosed area,

until he got it right,
make the dog sit when he does praise reward,
Take one step with the heel command and sit again & reward.
Gradually increase the steps taking always start and finish with sit.
start and end training with a game... make it fun... never work more than 15 mins at a time.

German shepherd should pick it up in about a week of 15 min sessions max.

Tried that, all last summer. Pretty much exactly as you put it (I did a lot of reseach). He was already 4 when we got him, and not at all well behaved. I worked with him a ton in the back yard. I even used treats (or tried, he has absolutely no interest in the treats when we are outside). Tons of praise, about 15-20 mins per day for 3-4 months. It did nothing. At the end of summer, I had to take him the the vet. I opened my car door, holding onto his leash. He jumped out of my door and took off - with me in tow. I ripped my jeans, scraped my face. At least I held on to him, because he has taken off before and he can be difficult to track down. I went in to the vet's office and asked for a recommendation for a trainer. Roscoe went through 8 weeks of training with a prong and graduated first in his class.

I know I went off of the topic of shock collars, but I think that the 'don't use something you wouldn't use on a two year old child' was not good advice (what 2-year old weighs 93 lbs? ). And you cannot generalize the breed, especially considering he's a mix. So what would you have done? Work with him another 3 months and hope for the best? Or take him back to the shelter? Sorry, but neither was an option.

EDIT: I should also mention that distractions made it extremely difficult to do the work you mentioned. He always wanted to chase the birds and bunnies, bark at cars, etc. Perhaps anything more about this should be said through PM, as I do not wish to further hijack this thread.

[JenBKR]

OK, just one more thing.....I personally would not put a collar and leash on a two year old either, so should we not even use those?

[flip195]

OK, just one more thing.....I personally would not put a collar and leash on a two year old either, so should we not even use those?

So is he toy driven rather than food driven ?


no , but i personally have never strapped a dog into a buggy either
and folks have been know to use harnesses and wrist straps on kids soooooo lol

[JenBKR]

So is he toy driven rather than food driven ?


no , but i personally have never strapped a dog into a buggy either
and folks have been know to use harnesses and wrist straps on kids soooooo lol

I have no idea what you mean by toy driven rather than food driven

And sorry, but your strapping a dog into a buggy analogy only furthers my point that you should not compare a two-year-old to a dog

And yes, people do use harnesses and straps on children, but I have yet to see one used around a child's neck

EDIT: As I said before, please direct all other comments to me via PM, as we have done enough hijacking of this thread. I apologize to the poster who began this thread, I promise not to post here again unless it is about shock collars! I just get so upset when people refuse to believe that their way may not be right for everyone.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I have no idea what you mean by toy driven rather than food driven

I just get so upset when people refuse to believe that their way may not be right for everyone.

Just to clarify for anyone else who may be confused about what toy driven means.... Instead of working for food as an incentive to do what you want it to do, you use a favorite toy that is irresitable to the dog. Not all dogs have a favorite toy that they would rather have than food.

My Dusty loves frisbee so I use that as his reward when he does what I ask him. I use his frisbee as reward for shaping wanted behaviors and for reinforcing behaviors he already knows. Before I go into a show ring (obedience) I pump him up with his frisbee and always have it waiting close by for when we exit the ring! Works better for him than food! My Dixie on the other hand will do anything for food and could care less about a toy! I hate to see a dog that acts like obedience training is the worst thing in the world. It shows me the owner doesn't know their dog well enough to figure out how to make obedience training fun!

[JenBKR]

Ok, thank you for clarifying that for me Roscoe likes his toys, but I'm not so sure that would work either. We are about to go to intermediate training with him, to work on distractions. I should mention that the treats seem to work when we are inside at training class, but when we are outside he has no interest (especially on walks).

[Dixieland Dancer]

I should mention that the treats seem to work when we are inside at training class, but when we are outside he has no interest (especially on walks).

This indicates to me that he is NOT ready to move on. Treats should be gradually faded after the dog understands what you are asking it to do so that it will gladly do what is asked even if there is no treat involved. Until the dog can do what you ask at least every two or three times without a treat, it is not ready to advance. Moving outside where there are more distractions only makes it worse.

As a trainer, the number one frustration that I have with owners is moving on without the dog fully understanding what you are asking it to do. It is repetition, repetition and more repetition which most handlers find boring so they force the dog forward when they really should be starting over with fundamentals. Don't be in a hurry to advance. Make sure you have a solid basic foundation before building anything more complex into the mix. You will be glad in the long run that you did!

[JenBKR]

This indicates to me that he is NOT ready to move on. Treats should be gradually faded after the dog understands what you are asking it to do so that it will gladly do what is asked even if there is no treat involved. Until the dog can do what you ask at least every two or three times without a treat, it is not ready to advance. Moving outside where there are more distractions only makes it worse.

As a trainer, the number one frustration that I have with owners is moving on without the dog fully understanding what you are asking it to do. It is repetition, repetition and more repetition which most handlers find boring so they force the dog forward when they really should be starting over with fundamentals. Don't be in a hurry to advance. Make sure you have a solid basic foundation before building anything more complex into the mix. You will be glad in the long run that you did!

He is getting pretty weaned off of the treats during lots of basic commands. Actually, him and one other dog in his basic class were the only ones approved to move to the intermediate class. We had planned to take him for the spring class, but I think we are going to have to wait for either the summer or fall class anyway because of my volunteer schedule conflicts.

[catnapper]

Ok, here's my take on shock collars. If the dog is going to die or wear shock collar - I'd recommend the collar just to try and SAVE THE DOG'S LIFE in the short term, while working on the dog using positve training methods for the long term. What qualifies as saving the dog's life? The dog runs and chases cars.... chase car = get run over = death. If your dog does not have a firm grasp on stay or come (and you're too moronic to keep the dog leashed when outside), use the collar when he's somewhere near cars until you are able to get a consistent come or stay... and the training for come or stay is to be done WITHOUT the collar and using all positive training methods. It won't happen opvernight - training requires patience, timing, and consistency.

All I've seen with shock collars on a friendly, excitable dog is that they turn the dog agressive towards what the dog was trying to play with. So if she knocks over your daughter in what she deems as play, if you were to go shock her, she'll think your daughter hurt her, and not connect that HER jumping prompted YOU to push a little button that delivered a "pulse". If you deliver a shock a half dozen times as she attempted to play with your daughter, she will then start snarling and growling at your daughter the next time your daughter comes near because she associated the shock with YOUR DAUGHTER, not HER OWN actions.

[Kosy]

One thing I've learned over years of being on various dog forums is that dog people are very passionate about the use/nonuse of shock collars and prong collars. If you use a shock collar you must make sure that the dog realizes he is self-correcting rather than have him associate the "pulse" coming from you or a child.

I use a remote citronella collar to keep my standard poodle's high prey drive in check when she is in the yard with my oversized toy poodle. It works for us. When she has the collar on, she is very well behaved. I don't have to click the citronella at all. If she starts to get overrambunctious, click the warning button and she calms immediately.

Would I shock my beloved girls? Not on your life. But I couldn't condemn anyone from using one as long as they were educated about the collar.

[4theloveofzoe]

Okaaaay.... You ladies/gentlemen... have confused me even more.

Needless to say, I'm going next week to buy her something called

The Gentle Leader