Do you approve?

**2kitties** · 03-05-2004, 08:50 PM

pops, i know you are through, but you know i can never keep my big mouth shut. i don't think i was clear about why i think it is different than sibling marriages. I get what you're saying. I really do. But i just think that we can't make something illegal simply because it disgusts some people. Imagine how many people are disgusted by interfaith or interracial marriages, by women in powerful positions, by women in the minstry, by blacks using the front door..... we can't go backwards, we just can't. And to AMMEND our supreme document in a way that takes away rights from a segment of the American population who've committed no crime... it's sad to me.

At the end of the day, I think people should be allow by law to do whatever the heck they want to do so long as they don't hurt anybody else. Getting married doesn't affect anybody other than the two consenting adults involved. So, I personally don't think it's anybody's business to regulate who they marry. The problem with sibling marriages is that they result in children who are born of a defective gene pool. They risk birth defects, etc. So, in effect, the marriage of relatives with the intent to procreate is directly harming an individual not consenting to the marriage (the unborn children).

Now, in terms of a child molester doing what comes naturally... well yes. But again, his natural thing harms others. So, therefore it can't be legal.

If it doesn't hurt anybody else- I'm all for it. Two gays getting married and making legal decisions for one another and becoming the beneficiary of their social security (for what that's gonna be worth) is fine by me.

If it hurts another individual- not fine by me.

And I'll add- Britney Spears did NOT make marriage a mockery. Maybe the alcoholic husband beating the crap out of his wife or his children, or the adulterers cheating on their husbands or wives... maybe they made a mockery of marriage. But to assume that just 55 hours in the life of Britney Spears can destroy the institution of matrimony is sort of a stretch.

**aly** · 03-05-2004, 08:50 PM

PCB - It has only been a few hours and not many people visit the dog house so it takes longer for replies. Even less people want to visit the controversial threads about these topics. So I'm sure you'll get more replies if you're patient!

Even though they said incest disgusts them, they never said that marriage between relatives should be banned. Having children in that situation would definately be wrong because of birth defects.

I have to disagree that there is scientific evidence proving homosexuality to be wrong. How can you prove that scientifically? (I don't think you used the word 'wrong', but something similar)

*edit* Great post, 2kitties! You stated things very well.

**Kfamr** · 03-05-2004, 08:52 PM

I still don't understand where you're coming from PCB.
I do understand that you follow by 'religious beleifs', but I don't get your point. That's where i'll leave it though, because i'll probably never understnad your way of life, or thinking.

You never answered my questions, either.

**PepperRSM** · 03-05-2004, 09:11 PM

Originally posted by 2kitties
If it doesn't hurt anybody else- I'm all for it. Two gays getting married and making legal decisions for one another and becoming the beneficiary of their social security (for what that's gonna be worth) is fine by me.

I completely agree. Gays marrying is not hurting anyone, so why is it such a big deal? Why can't they get the legal rights of heterosexual couples who get married? It just seems so unfair. They're not doing anything to hurt anyone and they don't get the rights everyone else does.

**Rottieluver45** · 03-05-2004, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by aly

*edit* Great post, 2kitties! You stated things very well.

Ditto!!! You`re great at stating your points!!

**Twisterdog** · 03-05-2004, 10:07 PM

Once again, conflicting opinions piss everyone off. This is ridiculous.

What is ridiculous is that everyone seems perfectly capable of expressing mature, if conflicting opinions, in many controversial threads on this board. That is, until you arrive. This is the third thread within the last couple of weeks that you have managed to degrade to an argument with your immature, closed-minded arguments. Perhaps a different board would suit your needs better, kevinrats?

As an aside ... incestuous marriage was banned, in part, to prevent children born of too closely linked DNA, which can lead to many genetic diseases, birth defects and mental/physical handicaps. It is legal to marry your relatives, as long as they are not so closely related to you that your offspring could be damaged by it. I believe, for example, that you cannot marry your first cousin but you can marry your second cousin, or you first cousin once removed. Obviously, then, there is more to the incestuous marriage ban than there is to the homosexual marriage ban ... a homosexual couple is obviously not going to produce inbred children.

I never cease to be amazed by the fact that the most close-minded, paternalistic, controlling people in any room - the ones who are constantly stepping up on their high horse of righteousness or "family values" - are the people who profess to be so religious. This country was founded by people who were persecuted for their "abnormal" religous beliefs, and fled Europe seeking a free place where they could worship as they wish. America became that place for them, because they understood a very basic principal: Do under other as you would have them do unto you. All or nothing. Voltaire said, "I disaprove of what you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it."

What happened to this strong, wise pioneer stock, who knew for one group to be free, all must be free? They are a far cry from the Christian-right these days. The very people who should be proud and humble and overjoyed to be fortunate enough to live in a free country where they have the right to practice their religion as they see fit ... (a right the VAST majority of the world does not have!) .... these are the same people that so eagerly clamor to strip any group that is different than them of those same rights. Nothing infuriates me more than a hypocrite.

For example ... (not to be hurtful, just citing one example) ... Popcornbird, you are Muslim. You are free to worship your God in a country where the vast majority of citizens are Christian. You take for granted that your religious freedoms are protected in the USA, and that you are granted the right of religious freedom. There are millions of Christians worldwide that think Islam is an unnatural abomination, a "sin", etc. Yet, you are still granted the freedom to do what you want here. Is it anyone's business but yours who you worship? Where you go to pray? No.

And yet, even as you take full advantage of the rights this country gives you ... you would take away another minority groups' rights to freedom and happines because you feel their lifestyle is an unnatural abomination and a "sin." Is it anyone's business but theirs who they love? Who they want to marry? No.

Hmmmmm .......

I believe ... live and let live. If what someone does isn't hurting you, then why should you have ANY right to tell them they can't do it? Instead of screaming about the "sanctity of marriage" ... why not work on your own marriage instead? Isn't that ultimately the only marriage that will matter to you in the end? Instead of screaming about the "sins" that other people are commiting ... why not work on your own relationship with your own God. Isn't that ultimately the only relationship that will matter to you in the end?

"Judge not, lest ye shall be judged."

**Shelteez2** · 03-05-2004, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Twisterdog
What is ridiculous is that everyone seems perfectly capable of expressing mature, if conflicting opinions, in many controversial threads on this board. That is, until you arrive. This is the third thread within the last couple of weeks that you have managed to degrade to an argument with your immature, closed-minded arguments. Perhaps a different board would suit your needs better, kevinrats?

As an aside ... incestuous marriage was banned, in part, to prevent children born of too closely linked DNA, which can lead to many genetic diseases, birth defects and mental/physical handicaps. It is legal to marry your relatives, as long as they are not so closely related to you that your offspring could be damaged by it. I believe, for example, that you cannot marry your first cousin but you can marry your second cousin, or you first cousin once removed. Obviously, then, there is more to the incestuous marriage ban than there is to the homosexual marriage ban ... a homosexual couple is obviously not going to produce inbred children.

I never cease to be amazed by the fact that the most close-minded, paternalistic, controlling people in any room - the ones who are constantly stepping up on their high horse of righteousness or "family values" - are the people who profess to be so religious. This country was founded by people who were persecuted for their "abnormal" religous beliefs, and fled Europe seeking a free place where they could worship as they wish. America became that place for them, because they understood a very basic principal: Do under other as you would have them do unto you. All or nothing. Voltaire said, "I disaprove of what you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it."

What happened to this strong, wise pioneer stock, who knew for one group to be free, all must be free? They are a far cry from the Christian-right these days. The very people who should be proud and humble and overjoyed to be fortunate enough to live in a free country where they have the right to practice their religion as they see fit ... (a right the VAST majority of the world does not have!) .... these are the same people that so eagerly clamor to strip any group that is different than them of those same rights. Nothing infuriates me more than a hypocrite.

For example ... (not to be hurtful, just citing one example) ... Popcornbird, you are Muslim. You are free to worship your God in a country where the vast majority of citizens are Christian. You take for granted that your religious freedoms are protected in the USA, and that you are granted the right of religious freedom. There are millions of Christians worldwide that think Islam is an unnatural abomination, a "sin", etc. Yet, you are still granted the freedom to do what you want here. Is it anyone's business but yours who you worship? Where you go to pray? No.

And yet, even as you take full advantage of the rights this country gives you ... you would take away another minority groups' rights to freedom and happines because you feel their lifestyle is an unnatural abomination and a "sin." Is it anyone's business but theirs who they love? Who they want to marry? No.

Hmmmmm .......

I believe ... live and let live. If what someone does isn't hurting you, then why should you have ANY right to tell them they can't do it? Instead of screaming about the "sanctity of marriage" ... why not work on your own marriage instead? Isn't that ultimately the only marriage that will matter to you in the end? Instead of screaming about the "sins" that other people are commiting ... why not work on your own relationship with your own God. Isn't that ultimately the only relationship that will matter to you in the end?

"Judge not, lest ye shall be judged."

*applauds*

Well said.

**Rottieluver45** · 03-05-2004, 10:15 PM

WOW!!!

Good job!!

*standing ovation(sp?)*

**Fox-Gal** · 03-05-2004, 10:16 PM

Why it's wrong for blood relatives to marry, is it's harms others, the children of that marriage. Proven. The same as inbreeding your dog! Proven.

Just as murder is illegal, or assult, robbery theft etc etc it harms or hurts others. Not because any religious moral belifes.

Now who is harmed or hurt by gays marrying? I have yet to find anyone that can give a GOOD reason besides their religious belifes why they should not be allowed to marry. Someone said Aids was a reason, but honestly we know thats not a valid reason. You can get Aids from anyone. Children is also not a valid reason, childern can and have been raised happy, healthy and well adjusted with gay parents. I would like to hear a good reason, leaving God out of it.

SEPARATION of church and state, means that, SEPARATE the two.

Bfore we can tell these people that they are not intitled to the same rights as us because they are different, there needs to be a proven reason how others are harmed or hurt.

Without that reason, I can only see it as no different then years ago when woman could not vote or when blacks had to sit in the back of the bus or deniend their right to vote. Back then we where telling them that it's because they were different, they did not deserve the same rights as us. We learned from that mistake that no man, woman, are people of different colors should be denied their rights just because they are different. So why now is it ok to say to the gay's that because you are different from us, you can not share in the same HUMAN rights that all all of us enjoy. It' just another from of prejudice and hopefull we can all agree the prejudice is wrong, no exceptions.

Religious belifes need to stay out of this, you have every right to your belifes and if someone feels it's wrong they have that right. But you don't have the right to impose your religious belifes on others through laws. SEPARATION of church and state.

This debate could go on and on, and some might get hurt by it. Everyone has their own views and will stick by them. That will never change. Agree to disagree and walk away strong in your belifes but respecting that others feel strong in theirs.

If you feel that the debate needs to contuine then debate the legal side of it, does the goverment have the right to stop gays from marrying? But out of respect for others, leave religion out of it.

**2kitties** · 03-05-2004, 10:18 PM

*claps for twisterdog*

**IttyBittyKitty** · 03-05-2004, 11:53 PM

No, I do not find the idea of gay marriages "disgusting." I am friends with many homesexual young gentlement, and you'd never meet anyone more pleasant! Let me ask you this - how many gay gentlement commit sexual murder or acts of terrorism? As opposed to straight gentlement who consider themselves to be in some way religious?

So what am I "disgusted" by?

I am disgusted by the puritanical stance that religious people take when it comes to judging the choices and decisions that others make.

I totally agree with 2kitties, whose arguments are always lucid and sensitive, on the point that consenting adults may do what ever they like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. And I am not refering to other people's "sensitivities" and prudish beliefs either. This, therefore, rules out paedophilia, siblings reproducing, murder, rape and anything else that would cause hurt to others.

But not gay marriage.

Last night, I went to see "Passion" which highlighted (in no uncertain terms!!) what Jesus went through. Jesus was tortured and crucified because the Jews had judged him to be a "heretic" and a dangerous lunatic, and decided that this was worthy of the highest punishment of them all. Jesus, himself, always said "cast not the first stone." If you are religious, then is it not God's place to judge others, not yours?

What really highlighted the hypocrosy of many Christians was the fact that I was in a theatre full of them (they'd booked out the whole theatre) and yet no one introduced themselves to us, no one exhibited any kindness to us. Later, in talking to some of them, I mentioned that Scott and I lived together and you should have seen the ripple of judgment that passed over their sweet, innocent faces. It was disgusting.

**micki76** · 03-06-2004, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by IttyBittyKitty
What really highlighted the hypocrosy of many Christians was the fact that I was in a theatre full of them (they'd booked out the whole theatre) and yet no one introduced themselves to us, no one exhibited any kindness to us. Later, in talking to some of them, I mentioned that Scott and I lived together and you should have seen the ripple of judgment that passed over their sweet, innocent faces. It was disgusting.

Please don't think we're all like that. We're not. I'm not, though my inlaws are and I can't stand to be around them and hear thethings they say about others.

I'm always so disappointed to hear a story like yours about Christians. I guess I'm an usual Christian in that I've sinned most of the sins that many others look down thier noses at. I'm sure there are even more that I will sin.

I know God loves me for me, not for who I pretend to be every Sunday. Nor does he love me more than you because I'm married.

It does get old.

For the longest time I stopped telling people I was a Christian because I got a lot of those ripples of judgement myself.

**CathyBogart** · 03-06-2004, 02:15 AM

micki: I have to admit that for awhile I went through a "Christianity BAD" stage after a series of conflicts with one groups of people. Then I met the president of the Christian club at my school....

He was asking a man to leave our campus. The man had come in, stood on our fountain and started preaching about Christianity. We were all fine with this, until he started to speak badly about homosexuals and talking about "burning the fag flag". At that point, myself and one of my (gay) friends went to the campus police.

The campus police wouldn't do anything about it, but the president of our Christian club overheard, walked out, and asked him to leave. "The Christian club on this campus wants to be non-judgemental and non-obtrusive, and you are disrupting that, so please leave". The man didn't leave, but I immediately stopped generalizing. I even went to a Christian club meeting, just to see if what he had said was true, and I was very impressed by what I found.

Now that I've gone off on a long tangent that has nothing to do with the original topic, I'll be quiet.

**RICHARD** · 03-06-2004, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by popcornbird
the act of homosexuality disgusts me. Its something I cannot accept, just as I cannot accept marriage between close blood relatives.

Here's a tip!

Look at people for who they are.
Don't look past their bedroom door and you'll see that they really aren't that much different than you and I.

I have always wondered why people obsess about what people do in the dark.

I have more of a problem with people standing outside a bedroom window, on tiptoes, trying to figure out what's going on inside....there's only one reason they are out there.....and that is to satisfy their curiosity.

From there, they can be totally shocked and gain ammo for their fight against what goes on, or get their jollies from the view....

But what it comes down to is why are people checking up on someone elses life, especially in the bedroom...

**CamCamPup33** · 03-06-2004, 12:54 PM

I approve.. 100% of gay marriages! It's there buisness why should *anyone* be allowed to say if it's right or not.. It's who you love.. Opposition to opening up civil marriage has mostly come from the church and from Christian political parties. They claim on biblical and other moral grounds that the institution of marriage is only meant to be the union of a man and a woman. That of course is a matter of belief and you can't really argue with that, but it is incompatible with the notion of equal rights.. Many people continue to believe that homosexuality is about nothing but sex, considering it to be merely a sexual perversion. The reality is that homosexuality is multidimensional, and is much more about love and affection than it is about sex. And this is what gay relationships are based on -- mutual attraction, love and affection. Sex is a means of expressing that love, just the same as it is for heterosexuals. Being gay is much more profound than simply a sexual relationship; being gay is part of that person's core indentity, and goes right the very center of his being. It's like being black in a society of whites, or a blonde European in a nation of black-haired Asians. Yes, being gay is just that profound to the person who is.

If i was in love, with another woman, nothing and no one would stop me.. Those of you who are against it, what if this happened to you, where you were in love with someone of the same sex? Would you call your self a disgrace to god, would you really be sinning? I mean, i guess if you were in the postion yourself, the tables would surely be turned.

Could some of you who oppose of this give a few good reasons?