I can't say I'm Sorry

[Sophist]

Yes, your primary supporter said it was ok because god said so. Sorry, but the bible doesn't count as empirical evidence.

I appreciate your attempts to use logic and research to back your claims...even if I find your ultimate conclusion wrong. I too get annoyed with anecdotal evidence and the feeling that, whoever is willing to argue the longest and the loudest will "win" the debate.

I will admit I'm no expert on seals, or marine life in general. I do however feel that a more eco-friendly (and seal friendly) solution is surely out there for dealing with this "overpopulation." I will attempt to do a little research myself and see if I can't find some good data on this, and I'll check out the links you provided.

Another thing I have been asking for.

I never weighed in on their arguments, I only said I was glad to see more people trying to see more than one side of the argument, so no need to chastise me about biblical citations.

[Sophist]

Hey....there is right, and there is wrong....your opinion alone is based on what you perceive to be right or wrong.

Although, if you use reasoning like that, then there is no way you COULD reasonably argue against using religious tenets as arguments. After all, that IS what decides 'right' and 'wrong' for most people.


Can't have your cake and eat it, too.

[Sophist]

Puck,

Again if it was a decision between someone evil such as Hitler and your dog I think most people would save their pet before they save a Hilter, or a Jack the Ripper. A great deal of people would save their pet before they would go back in to save a child molester. I don't think there is anything wrong with thinking that way. And no I don't think that EVERY human life is more important then an animal. Some people don't deserve help. Just because my compassion is different then yours does not make me ill. It's a free country and I can help whomever I so choose, give money or time to whatever charity I want.
Staring an animal in the eyes and blowing it's brains out makes me wonder about your mental health, kindness and goodness of heart. What about your dog will you shot him as well if you are bored and need to unwind?

Animals don't hunt for fun or to hang a trophy. They hunt for survival. Nor do they molest their young. Their hearts in many ways are kinder and more loving then humans. As for being on top of the food chain, I don't know about you but my level of compassion is not decided by someones IQ.
Just because a dog, hamster or rabbit is less intelligent then a human does not make their life worth less. I am sure if we could speak to them they would tell you how much they love their lives and don't want to suffer or die. Just as it doesn't make a difference if a person with Altzheimers or mental retardation needs help. Their IQ might be less then a dogs but my compassion again isn't doled out that way. I just don't care about the evil people.

It is wrong and unfair to suggest that all people hunt simply because they are bored and want to unwind.

And I'll give you that animals may be less prone to molesting their young before they are old enough to willingly mate, but if those are your guidelines... I've known of a whole heck of a lot less cases of people eating their young. That isn't an entirely uncommon phenomenon in the animal world.

Say what you want about Jack the Ripper, he probably wouldn't have eaten his own babies. That hamster in the cage next to him... I'm not so sure.

I don't think the 'good' and 'evil' debate holds a lot more water here than the religious debate does.


And please, please, please tell me you didn't place the mentally handicapped on par with dogs and bunnies?

[Sophist]

Just on the religion front:

I always am a little vexed when religious quotes are brought into an arguement too. I agree with Denise for the most part. What always springs to mind that whilst people's opinions may be based on faith, that faith is by no means the same for all involved. What about someone who is Muslim, or Jewish? Bible quotes mean nothing to them. That's why I always believe faith and debate should keep apart. But then, that's just my view. I'm sure plenty disagree.

I've also been a little surprised as to some attitudes here. I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times on these last few pages, it seems some people may be getting a little big for their boots. Can we not just let this be by now? Sure, not all people here are fact storage facilities, nor are we emotionless robots who fire information at each other constantly until the other runs out of ammo. Some of us get our ideas and opinions from a little thing called gut feeling. Maybe even conscience or morals. Of course this is nothing unless backed up by at least a few facts, but nonetheless it is a strong arguement in any case. If you saw bullies beating a kid in the street, would you not act upon morals instead of weighing up pros and cons of all possible outcomes? I sincerely hope that would be so.

My opinions will not change by any facts. I live by my morals. For anyone else, well whatever floats your boat is fine by me.

Thanks. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.

[sparks19]

Once again, "No religion, go by your morals"?

You cannot do that. I have not relied on religious arguments, but you cannot promote moral or opinion or emotion-based stances for a debate, and then say religion can't be a part of that.

For most people, even if they aren't actively and staunchly religious, religion and morals are pretty inseperably intertwined.

Thank you......

I thought that was just KNOWN. Where do you think my morals and beliefs stem from? MY FAITH. How can you ask me questions on my morals and beliefs and then tell me I can't bring up the subject that played the biggest part in the molding of my morals and beliefs. I know not everyone believes what I believe so that is why they say you shouldn't bring religious beliefs into a debate.... but when it is a question of your morals and beliefs it can't be done. I am not telling them they must believe what I believe.... I'm just giving my opinion just like everyone else.... if my opinion includes religious content well than thats how it is.

[Miss Z]

I personally don't think that morals and faith are the same thing. I grant that they are similar, but I don't consider them to be the same.

For me, faith is based on what one believes is right in their religion. I do not have any problem with it whatsoever, and if someone believes something is wrong or right because of their faith then sobeit. My reasoning for faith and debate being better apart was that not everyone shares the same religion, if any at all. Not everyone can relate to religion. I certainly can't, I've thought about it my whole life but as yet nothing has convinced me that there could be a god.

Morals, on the other hand, is something you feel for yourself. Whether they've been imprinted on your mind ever since you can remember or whether they were sparked by faith doesn't really make a difference. They are always there in your gut, telling you when something is right or wrong. You don't need to quote anything to explain them, it's simply an emotion, and a strong one at that. And where it importantly differs from religion is that whilst people may not share your own morals, they can at least relate to having them.

That is how I see it anyway. I have no faith but a heck of a lot of morals.

Puck, I thank you for being more civil in your recent post, now I can relate to you more. If you did find out from a reliable source why the link was removed then I take back what I said, although of course I could not have comprehended that was the case beforehand. I know we should all be able to say what we think and I agree with that, but the truth is, that just isnt how humans as a race work. Saying what people want to say wrote history, made all our wars, murders and punishments. Here it's evidently driving divisions between members of this forum. I believe that there's a time and a place for everything to be said, but you have to find said time and place first.

[sparks19]

I personally don't think that morals and faith are the same thing. I grant that they are similar, but I don't consider them to be the same.

.

Well then there is our problem

we will have to agree to disagree because for me.... while they may be different words.... my morals stem GREATLY from my faith. Does it need to be quoted in regular conversation? no.... but when you state your reasoning for something and someone says "what makes you say that" then I find it IS nessecary to quote it and tell what makes one say what they said and if that is from your faith then thats where the quote will come from. Hmmm I didn't explain that very well.

[DrKym]

On this I will have to agree with Sophist and to a very large degree MissZ,
I teach religion, both ancient and Modern and yet practice none of what I teach, as a religion.

To Quote to me from the Bible, well I could if necessary out quote it and give the history behind the verses, same for the Koran, Torah etc.

How ever, I feel that my beliefs are truly by my gut and what we are all born with, the ability to be both good and evil the ability to choose, and that fact that everyone differs in their opinion of each.

I feel I have seen on this thread some very serious and well thought out opinions. I respect all of them even if I do not hold them as my own.

Just my thoughts

[Miss Z]

Thank you Kym, that was an elegant way of putting a part of what I was getting at. Guess I shouldn't try to write posts and do German homework at the same time.

Sparks, by no means mistake what I say for completely disregarding religion from debate. I do not mean that it is wrong to give reasons for why you believe something is so, if you are questioned. I am sorry if it came across that way, re-reading my posts I can see that it might have done. What I just find odd is the blatant answer of putting it all down to God and then not accepting any further question, the kind of 'because it says so' attitude. If it has depth and feeling backed up by morals and facts alike, then I see that as a valid reason for your views. I still see a stark difference between morals and faith, but I also agree to disagree on this one.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

LOL.... Piglet? hmmmm I will have to look into that haha. I personally hope eeyore is real.... he's cute.

Couldn't agree more Kanga used to annoy me though