White Shepherds

[jackfrost]

the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..

very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point.

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund?

You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be, its the breed test, it's what is used to test and prove breeding stock, it tests nerve, strength, temperment etc. Its the strict standards in breeding and testing that brought the GSD the reputation it has today, and should be preserved. To claim your "breed" can do everything a GSD can do and more??, then prove it.

The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

The original intent of the herding dog was one of athletic ability that could run and be agile enough to tend sheep, keep them in line etc, be courageous enough and have the strength to ward off a predatory attack, and have the energy and stamina to work the fields all day. Then at nigh it had to be stable enough and still protective enough to guard the home. At that time in history there were many guardian dogs and many herding dogs, but none that could really do it all. The guardian breeds too big and not athletic enough, and the other "herder" weren't strong enough mentally of physically to engage attackers. not long after the GSD was made famous those qualities were still desired, although the landscape of Germany and the need for herding was diminished, so Schutzhund was developed to ensure that those qualities were tested and maintained within the breed.

Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

Here are some of Nicole's word's

White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few.

-Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it.

-White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.

-The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose.

Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts.

Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do.

Sounds like she, along with any other white GSD breeder I've seen always directly relates what their dogs do, to the reputations the GSD has built for itself. To that i've said it 1000 times, PROVE IT. There's a reason the GSD has its reputation, and people breeding WGSD's do none of it, where are the LSP, BSP, SchH, HGH winners and titles in those venues? If you're not testing or proving that the WGSD can do anything and everything etc except for a handful of dogs over the pas 30 years I suggest you get off the computer and get training some dogs.

[borzoimom]

Quote:
quote borzoimom "the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC.. /



Quote jackfrost://"very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point."...'

So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

[mike001]

Well now that was an interesting post from Nicole. She says she is breeding a"proven service dog", yet her so called service dog has no titles? Could you tell us what school you and your dog graduated from and why you said you didn't think your dog needed any titles or certificates? When you graduate with your dog, you have a certificate to prove it is a service dog. And you say you are not interested in working titles. That is what a GSD was born to do. You want us to believe you will automatically have service dog quality pups when the dam is not proven in anything? Shelter dogs are often taken in to be trained as service dogs and they do a great job. You are not interested in obedience, how does one expect a service dog to follow instuctions and commands without basic obedience. And what about tracking? What if the dog is in charge of an alzheimer's patient or an autisitc child and they wander away? How would the dog find his "charges" if he knew nothing of tracking?

A GSD is first and foremost a working dog in the true sense of the word. If your dog can't meet the requirements, it should not be bred. You skirt around the issue of your dog's titles or certificates, which to me points out that she has none.

What would happen if a guide dog were to lead a blind person and a car backfired and the dog freaked ? Or what if a dog accompanied a disabled person and met some unruly people and decided to growl or raise it's hackles?
These dogs would quickly be washed out of a program. That is why it is so important that service dogs experience all kinds of noises and distractions before entering a program.

If a dog has not been proven for steady drive and nerves, then it can't be considered as a true working GSD. The training a schH dog gets only proves his worthiness more, every GSD was born for this type of work. A GSD is nothing but a pet without proof of being able to work as it was bred to do.

As for police work, they do not accept WGSD's because they are too visible to go undetected. If you can show me one white proven GSD of today, not eons ago, I might tend to believe there might be one or two in the deep recesses of somewhere, but you can't even prove your own dog's worthiness.

The best proof I can give you is to send you to Fred Lanting's explanations of real GSD's. Knowing how intensive and complicated his readings are, I'm sure you won't want to dedicate the necessary time to it.
Or, there is also a great forum on service dogs that you could access for information, I think it's called "Our Community service dogs". I could ask for the name from a friend if you can't get into the site.

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are starting to sound very familiar. She is a PROVEN service dog. She is a PSD. Just to give you some education(which I have a sneaking suspision I have given you before) Service dogs DO NOT have to have any titles. None Nana nothing. They DO NOT have to be trained by a facility. They can be owner trained. There is NO law in in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be certified or have titles or have to be trained by a facility. THAT IS A FACT.

So since Sheena is a PROVEN service dog she has a higher chance of producing service dogs. Is that a garentee that she will? Nope. Have I ever said she will produce service dogs and that all her puppies will be service dogs? NOPE never. All I ever said is that is what I am breeding for. So I find dogs with those qualities and HOPE that I will produce at least a few. That is how breeding works.

AS for obience titles and the like I have NEVER said I don't like them. In fact I state over and over agian that that titles are great to have. I just said they are not the be all and end all of whether a dog should be bred or not.

I am sorry you can not open your eyes and truely learn. You are the one who loses out on all this but staying in teh dark.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

.....

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[borzoimom]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

Nicole- I have shared this before but not on this thread. My Zubin has a gift. Now both he and his sister Galina work with children with cancer at two hospitals. However- Zubin has a gift.. He has had it since day one- keeping in mind, all of these children have some form of cancer, but Zubin can tell which one is failing- and the joke of this is- it sometimes goes against the medical reports. We have had situations of a child being sent to a huge childrens hospital as failing in cancer recovery- Zubin acts a little like a goof ball- willing to play fetch with the child- wagging his tail slowly.. The child was discharge in two weeks from the new hospital with a " yes its in full remission" . Another child- was supposed to be discharged with only treatments- Zubin would not leave that child- he stood there with his head in his lap pressing gently- would not leave ( the story is on my website).. The child died that night when the next morning he was supposed to be discharged- ... How he knows- we have no clue- but of the 7 pups in this litter- 4 are now therapy dogs- not bred with that in mind- the parents are top show dogs- but 4 in this litter are Therapy dogs- and it comes natural to them... Borzois are supposed to be rather aloof and dignified etc- these guys are open- calmly friendly and bothered by NOTHING! ... And Zubin and Galina are flat out hams in the ring- Look at the judges face on my website under our dogs- and look at the judges face under Zubin- ....

[borzoimom]

And one more thing Nicole- I do believe they have gifts within them we can not understand. Like what yours does with your situation, Zubin is the reason I went to the doctor because he kept pressing his head into my lap and rested his head on me all the time- even sending instant messanges to people like "hjkl" as he rested his head on the table my lap top is at. I went to the doctor- scared he was detecting cancer- it wasnt- but it was serious. Its not cancer he is detecting as he works with those that have it- its a change in life whatever and he is trying to help- just like yours is doing..

[NicoleLJ]

Your dogs sound amazing. borzoimom. I always trust my dogs. No matter what I always trust them. They know things we don't.
Nicole

[mike001]

Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. They do not decide for themselves to attack, they need a command or they do not pass. This is not to deny that some schH dogs are trained to detect danger and act on heir own.
As for self trained service dogs, I don't think I've ever heard of this, But I have a friend who works in service dog work for the Lion's Foundation and I can enquire about this. But if a dog is owner trained where would the test be passed? Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
Bottom line is, if a dog shows any sign of aggression, like growling, biting,raising hackles, showing teeth, it is an automatic failure, regardless of performance.
I think this is the point we are trying to make, these dogs have to be proven for access rights.
But again, I think Fred lanting's books and sites say more than any of us could and prove without a doubt what we are discussing.

[borzoimom]

To not get into specifics- but Zubin's actions actually could have saved my life.. You let her do what she does- she knows.. They have insights we can not have- .. After so many years with shepherds- I have so many stories of my dogs, and those farmed out into line of duty etc even show- that it defies how they know. One night- I was laying down reading a book on the couch in my living room. All the dogs were in their crates but my one female- that loved to lay with me- SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE IN THE HOUSE THAT WAS NOT A Sch. Trained dog. Suddenly she started pacing- looking- then ran at the window- I yelled like I thought she had lost her mind- and was going to dive through it, when I heard something bang and crash on the front deck. I looked out the window in time to see two men running from the window and she was going BANANAS- set off the whole house- I grabbed the phone and called the police- and they got a chuckle to arrive at my house- with all the dogs crated- but I knew darn well- every single one of them- including her- would have gone over that 6 foot high fence.. The door knob had a screw driver stuck in it.. One of the accomindations I have from the San Franciso PD- one of my dogs- the dog had uh been in an arrest earlier in the week. This one night, the officer had a meeting at the office, and left the dog at home- they came to break into his house- with his wife and children in the house- took a bullet- but bite two of the men- cornering the other - all with only screams of commotion- not a single command. ... And the testimonies can continue..

[borzoimom]

[QUOTE=mike001]Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. "//quote=

I had 35 shepherds at one time- 17 Otch- etc in titles- Trained 4??? I did that in my first year---.. Your constant attack at Nicole has brought me out- I find your knowledge in shepherds far from anything you can document, nothing you have experienced, and soley for the reason your actions are strange... The more you talk- the more I discount you and experience- PUT DOWN A BOOK- AND PUT YOUR OWN PROOF IN YOUR own dogs- because its not there-...
***** AND I AM NOT borzoid- I AM BORZOIMOM!!**