Terri Schiavo - so sad :(

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
So he has every RIGHT to continue his life while fighting for her rights. He's STILL married to her.

That's my point. They're still married. He should NOT have a girlfriend on the sidemuchless children!

Breaking a back and being fed through a feeding tube are totally not the same.

My point there was that the person changed from the person that entered into the marriage. I am well aware that a broken back and someone in Terri's state do not equal the same thing. Don't be so literal.

[caseysmom]

I do think he should have divorced her and relinqued control to her parents...

[catland]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I have told my husband the greatest compliment he could pay me, should I die before him, is to remarry quickly. That marriage was a good thing. If I should be in a long term coma or mentally gone because of dementia or the like...I would WANT him to have female companionship.

Life is for the living....and it is very short. I would not want him to be lonely. I trust he could find ways to honor my memory and still find some pleasure in life.

I agree - providing that there is a shrine with a lifesize picture of me above their bed.

OK - so maybe this is the wrong thread for humor, but then again maybe it isn't. A sense of humor is one of the great gifts given to us. Terri "died" years ago. If that was me in her place I would be delighted that my husband was able to find someone (almost) as wonderful as me.

As long as I'm hopelessly digressing - anyone familiar with the movie "Highlander"? - about this guy who finds out he's immortal and will never age... he marries (this is in 16th century Scotland), and he loves his wife very much and she ages and grows old while he is still young but he never leaves her and when she is dying she asks him to remember her and light a candle on her birthday - which he does for the next 400 years - anyway, my point being, she let him go - she wasn't jealous that he was living longer than her - she was only sad that she couldn't be there for the journey. (this scene makes me cry every time I see it)

So, my point being - if he really was the heartless jerk that some want to believe that he is, he could have walked away years ago - but he didn't. Can any of us imagine being saddled with the burden that he has - only to have the president on down try to get him to relinquish his vows?

oh well, I've rambled on enough for one post...

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
My point there was that the person changed from the person that entered into the marriage. I am well aware that a broken back and someone in Terri's state do not equal the same thing. Don't be so literal.

sorry, but it sure looked like a comparision to me.

but still, she didn't break her back, she is not up and speaking and eating and drinking like someone who breaks their back would, even if the only similar thing is both of them are 'changed' from what they were when married... since people can and do change during their marriage to someone (i.e. new job, new baby, new dog, etc etc)

A broken back and being a vegetable are totally different changes, one you cannot come back from (brain practically gone, can't talk or eat, etc.) and the other you might be able to come back from (not to mention that person can talk, masticate, brain is ALL there, etc)... Perhaps if your example were more along the lines of what is happening with terri that would be more appropriate.

So, my point being - if he really was the heartless jerk that some want to believe that he is, he could have walked away years ago - but he didn't. Can any of us imagine being saddled with the burden that he has - only to have the president on down try to get him to relinquish his vows?

Exactly, if he didn't give a hoot about Terri he wouldn't be there with her now.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Luvin Labs
sorry, but it sure looked like a comparision to me.

but still, she didn't break her back, she is not up and speaking and eating and drinking like someone who breaks their back would, even if the only similar thing is both of them are 'changed' from what they were when married. I guess I don't get your reasoning for stating that... since people can and do change during their marriage to someone (i.e. new job, new baby, new dog, etc etc), like I said a broken back and being a vegetable are totally different changes, one you cannot come back from (brain practically gone, can't talk or eat, etc.) and the other you might be able to come back from (not to mention that person can talk, masticate, etc)...

I'm not going to talk in circles. My point was that you made it sound that since Terri had been altered from the person Michael married, he had every right to move on with his life and commit adultery. As assinine as my "broken back" comment was in your mind, your thought that he had/has a right to have a girlfriend (and children) is just as ridiculous to me. I'm not saying you don't have a right to have that opinion. I'm merely just voicing my own on the matter.

If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

Like I said, you are more than free to have that opinion and I am more than free to feel just the opposite.

[Luvin Labs]

Originally posted by Samantha Puppy
I'm not going to talk in circles. My point was that you made it sound that since Terri had been altered from the person Michael married, he had every right to move on with his life and commit adultery. As assinine as my "broken back" comment was in your mind, your thought that he had/has a right to have a girlfriend (and children) is just as ridiculous to me. I'm not saying you don't have a right to have that opinion. I'm merely just voicing my own on the matter.

i didn't think your thought was 'assinine', i just think it in no way compares to the state terri is in. although IMO I don't agree with him on having children, I think he should be allowed to move on in some way (dating perhaps, but not children).

If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

its all personal choice frankly. I also would not want to move on while my SO was in the hospital, even IF he said to move on if he's ever in that condition. i'm just curious if terri and hubby talked about that and what was said.

Like I said, you are more than free to have that opinion and I am more than free to feel just the opposite.

:P exactly. this world would be BORING if we all agreed on everything, dontya think?

[tatsxxx11]

Morphine drips are routinely given to patients in the end stages, be they in pain or not, most often to lessen labored, fitful breathing indicative of impending death (Cheyne-Stokes) and to sedate other autonomic nervous responses that all dying patients experience, many of which are often difficult for the family to experience.

I have cared for hundreds of patients in my nursing career on "respirators." The terms respirator and ventilator are interchangeable, though recently the term "ventilator" is preferred. But both refer to any device delivering mechanically assisted "respirations" or "ventilation" via an endotracheal tube inserted into the trachea via the nose or mouth or via a tracheotomy. The "vents" or respirations can be adjusted to be administered automatically, e.g. a set number per minute, total tidal volume, etc. or adjusted to "trip" or assist when the patient voluntarily initiates a breath.

[chelsea]

None of these people are taking into consideration the friends and family members of the other hospice patients there. If this happened to me, heads would be rolling outside...



Hospice Protests Disturb Visitors
Delays to See Dying Loved Ones Add to Grief
By JILL BARTON, AP

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (March 26) - Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away.

She got there - one minute too late.

Dozens of protesters have arrived since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.

Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye. When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.

The delays lasted three to four minutes - the last of her grandfather's life.

"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."

Woodside Hospice has 70 patients besides Schiavo, whose parents are desperately trying to have her feeding tube reconnected. Dozens of protesters have arrived from across the nation since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.

Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.

"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.

Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.

"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer."'

Most protesters direct their signs and their chants against the courts and Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, who insists she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

But walking through a hostile environment can only add stress to what's already an emotionally draining situation.

"It probably has the same psychological effect on the residents' families as it does on someone who is walking into an abortion clinic and facing signs and aggressive behavior," said Elizabeth Foley, a Florida International University law professor who specializes in bioethics.

Over the past few days, as Schiavo's parents' attempts to have their daughter's feeding tube reinserted repeatedly failed, signs outside the hospice have grown more desperate. Doctors have said Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the feeding tube being removed.

Messages compare Michael Schiavo to Scott Peterson, convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in California, and John Evander Couey, who allegedly murdered a 9-year-old girl in Homosassa.

One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"

Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor - intended to rattle Michael Schiavo - rattles their patience.

"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.

Police and hospice officials say they are trying to minimize the intrusion on hospice residents and their families, and that the security measures are meant to protect the privacy and safety of all residents, not just Schiavo.

But Johnson, 24, said her 73-year-old grandfather, Thomas Bone, was restricted from moving freely around the hospice grounds during his final days. He died just hours after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed and protests intensified.

"They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming - and it's not fair," Johnson said.

[Edwina's Secretary]

If, God forbid, my husband were ever put in a situation anywhere near Terri's (where his mind was forever and irrevocably changed), you can bet your life that I would not be having relations (and children) with other men. When I vowed to stand by my husband, I meant for better or worse, in sickness and in health, until we are parted by death with all my heart and soul. Not any other circumstance. And I would hold him to the same accord were I put in a situation where I was in a conditions similar to Terri's.

I am in awe of your moral certitude....especially in one so young. I'm also curious.....if....God forbid.... your husband were struck with an incurable and terminal condition ...say Lou Gerigh's (I know that isn't spelled correctly!) and he told you he did not want a feeding tube or other mechanical life support....what would you do?

Not argumentative...just curious....

[Pam]

Deb and Sandra, thank you for helping to clear some confusion. The strokes I mentioned occurred in 1975, 1993 and 1995, none real recent. I possibly could have misunderstand what I was being told back in 1975 with my dad as I was quite a bit younger. In 1993, however, my sister-in-law called me to say that her husband had been upgraded from a respirator to a vent. Maybe it is classified slightly differently depending on how much it is assisting??

Caseysmom, I apologize if I sounded rude. It just bothers me when people state, as if it was a proven fact, that the husband is doing as she wished. No one really knows and there are just too many conflicting stories about what she would have wanted. I am certainly not convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I am in awe of your moral certitude....especially in one so young. I'm also curious.....if....God forbid.... your husband were struck with an incurable and terminal condition ...say Lou Gerigh's (I know that isn't spelled correctly!) and he told you he did not want a feeding tube or other mechanical life support....what would you do?

Not argumentative...just curious....

I would honor his wishes, even though I may not want to. In a time like that, it's about him - not me. (Although I know I'm going to be a mess if he goes first... I just watched Ladder 49 and about had a conniption at the end because it made me so scared of losing my husband at all, but especially young).

We're preparing to have living wills written up just so nothing like the Schiavo situation will happen to us and we can prove that those truly are his wishes.

[catland]

Chelsea - that article was heart-breaking. Funny how the protestors - who claim to know what's best for everyone else, are just about the most stuck-up bunch of egotistical morons walking around. Using these families (not just Shiavo's) as their fodder for their cause and their 15 minutes of fame.

[tatsxxx11]

Hi Pam You know Pam, maybe your SIL was referring to a venting mask, which is sometimes given after a patient has been "extubated," that is the endotracheal tube removed/taken off the respirator to provide oxygen. It's an oxygen mask, placed over the face and nose...the patient can remove it to talk, eat, etc. It's all so complicated, I know!

[Pam]

Thanks Sandra. You are right. It is all very confusing for sure. I am learning lots tonight. Just heard on TV that cremation is allowed now (since 1963) in the Catholic church. I must remember to update my co-workers.

[Luvin Labs]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=8016906

The husband of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo has ordered an autopsy after she dies to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something, his lawyer said on Monday.

He said Michael Schiavo, who has been pitted against the parents in a seven-year legal conflict over whether to allow Schiavo to die, requested an official autopsy to show the "massive" extent of the brain damage she suffered in 1990.