for other Atheists out there

[Tanya&Fritz]

Fair enough

What made you become a "true" Christian 5 years ago? Just curious...

[Dixieland Dancer]

“Where does life come from?” There are essentially only two answers: Life and its diversity were designed by an intelligence for a purpose or it simply “occurs” by natural law and chance and not by design.

The religious and non-religious implications of either response are obvious. A design inference supports and leads to theistic religions. The naturalistic conclusion is antagonistic to theistic religion and leads to non-theistic belief systems, laws, morals and ethics that sharply conflict with those derived from the major religions of the world.

I believe the scientific evidence of design is abundant and convincing. I believe that Evolution is just a theory and has never been proven fact or the scientist of todays time would not be split in their beliefs. Biochemists can’t avoid using design terminology when they encounter the purpose, function and apparent meaning that pervades living systems. Intention and purpose, which can only be generated by intelligence, is implicitly recognized in the language used by science: the genetic “code;” the “blue print” of life; “messenger” RNA; etc.

Why are public school systems afraid of the debate between evolution and creationism? Most students opinions are declared invalid if design is suggested with out any objective evaluation of the evidence. Prohibiting debate effectively provides the naturalistic hypothesis with a monopoly on the scientific explanation of origins. Instead of promoting an objective search for the truth, teaching only naturalism abandons it.

I believe public school indoctrination of students in naturalism offends the First Amendment of our Constitution. Censorship of the evidence of design violates the requirements of the establishment clause that government remain “neutral” when it enters a religious arena. Censorship also violates the
rights of teachers, students and parents to have public education conducted without discrimination against viewpoints relevant to the subject matter being taught. For those of you reading this that are not in the USA, I do not pretend to know how this effects your rights as I only know about the rights given to me by my government.

Objectivity would allow students to be shown the scientific evidence that supports both viewpoints. This would permit students to reach informed conclusions about the best scientific explanation of where they come from. It would improve the quality and credibility of origins science; and permit schools to teach rather than to indoctrinate, consistent with their constitutional obligation to remain neutral about a subject that has such significant conflicting religious implications. By refusing to teach both sides of the story, I feel that I am essentially being witnessed to in a way that infringes on my life too.

I do not think that I use my faith as a "crutch" in life. I am not a weak minded individual who needs religion to tell me how to live. My faith actually is an enhancement to my life. I have felt the moving of the spirit in my life and know for certain that in my life he is very much real. I can look at a beautiful sunset and believe that my creator designed it to be beautiful for me to look at because he loves me instead of just thinking it happened and was just an occurance that happened. I can look at the storms of life and see how they make my life richer in the long run. I believe the same with my relationships with people. I can believe that they do things for me to make my life sweeter and full of more meaning or I can think it is chance that someone went out of their way for me. I choose to believe they designed to go out of their way for me to show how much they care for me. Basically for me it is easier to believe in design rather than chance.

One final point.... I designed the words on this page to reflect my feelings and beliefs. I did not just pick out random letters and expect them to fall into the words I wanted. No matter how many times I take all these letters and scramble them up, they will never fall into this exact pattern unless I design them again. To test this theory scientifically do a simple test.... rip up a whole piece of paper and throw it up in the air. Does it ever fall into a perfect piece of paper again? If I tape the pieces back together again they are still not perfect but in more of the original design than when I just toss them in the air!

It is nice that this topic can be discussed without fighting among the troops!

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Tanya&Fritz
Fair enough

What made you become a "true" Christian 5 years ago? Just curious...

Let me start by saying I was taught when I was young about God and Jesus. I believed in both God and Jesus growing up. I never went to church after my parents were divorced.

When I met my hubby and his parents I was extremely conflicted. They were the most genuine, compassionate.....and religious people that I've ever met. I really liked them and felt so peaceful around them. Their home was a haven for me, a place I spent almost every weekend (not overnight) for about three years. I longed for the state of mind they all had. Calm, understanding and so completely non-judgmental....something very foreign in my family.

After about six months of knowing them, I decided that I wanted what they had. I decided to go to church with David (my hubby) and see what this was all about. I struggled for about a year before I actually understood it all. (not all, the basics) It was a really hard time for me, like I said, I really questioned everything.

The rest is history...my hubby and I have been married for a year and a half. We got married in a church and had a very emotional ceremony.

I got baptized about a year ago....I was never baptized as a child and I wanted my family and friends to be there for me to profess my faith. That is another "Christian thing"...the churches I have attended believe in doing this when you are an adult...as a profession of faith, not so you wont go to hell. Water means nothing when you are talking about heaven or hell.

[Soledad]

Dixieland -

I believe the theory of "design" died a LONG time ago. It is a 17th or 18th century theory that has been proven wrong time and time again.

If you are speaking of creationism, I would have to say that that is a religious based belief that should not be taught in science classes, but in cultural studies along side other religions' creation theories. Why is creationism NOT science? Because science takes pieces and tries to put them together, and hopefull yield an answer. Creationism starts with an answer and finds pieces that fit into that story. It does not adapt with new evidence. Evolution has and will continue to as we learn more.

It is not a science, and does not belong in science curriculums. Sure, put it in a philosophy course or a cultural studies course for high schoolers.

Sara luvs her Tinky -

I don't know how many times I've heard the "I used to drink and do drugs and now I have Christ" tale. I'm well aware that Christians are not all do-gooders, in fact, I'm more inclined to think that they have far more sordid pasts than my own from some of the stories I've been told while being "witnessed" to. The thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.

Also, as for this information you are providing from a scientist who fell off the evolution bandwagon and onto the creationism one: do you know how many times the opposite has happened? The reason why it is of interest that someone would go from evolution to creationism is because that is not the norm. It happens so often in the opposite direction that it's not even news. Besides, I have a lot of cynicism towards these newly found creationist as they can often get way more name recognition being a creationist (as it is less populated) than as an evolutionist. Good career move.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Soledad
IThe thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.

So you are saying religion is for people who've messed up in the past?

I haven't messed up in the way you are talking about...and Sara most likely was young and experimenting, not being a bad/immoral person.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by Soledad
Dixieland -

I believe the theory of "design" died a LONG time ago. It is a 17th or 18th century theory that has been proven wrong time and time again.

My creator is intelligent and designed the entire universe so Intelligent design = Creationism and I personally do not think it is dead. More and more scientists are turning to intelligent design because there are so many holes in Darwins evolutionary theory that are popping up. In the past most Darwinian scientists did not have the knowledge of the complexity of the cell but more and more the knowledge is coming out just how complex it really is. Take DNA and the genetic code being found. Take one cell stucture out of place and you have a different genetic code entirely. Our DNA makeup is so closely resembled to other species yet uniquely different. This is not chance. It is design. And I believe when a scientist discovers the revelation that the cell is more likely designed it is not a career enhancement opportunity. If anything it is probably a career downgrade since those who believe in intelligent design seem to have to convince people harder about their point of view than the Darwinist do.

On this subject I believe we can agree to disagree. Someday we will all find out if there really is a creator or not. In the mean time we can hug our furry friends and loved ones and take life with or without faith. As for me and my house... we choose faith!

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
On this subject I believe we can agree to disagree. Someday we will all find out if there really is a creator or not. In the mean time we can hug our furry friends and loved ones and take life with or without faith. As for me and my house... we choose faith!

Amen to that! Very well said.

[Soledad]

Noahs Mommy -

I'm saying that religion has a profound grip on people with troubled pasts who feel they need to redeem themselves, etc.

I've had MANY people witness to me and what I find most extraordinary is how many of them were alcoholics, abusers, sex workers, inmates, etc. Hey, if religion sets them straight, I'm all for it.

However, I don't have that need. Sure, that's not the only void religion fills for people, but there are many who return to religion after they've hit rock bottom or led a life they feel remorse about.

People come to religion for different reasons. I could really care less why they do it. Great, fine, you found something that works for you...guess what? So did I! And without God. Wow, what a concept.

[NoahsMommy]

Religion has nothing to do with remorse, non-believers really should get that straight.

I have no remorse whatsoever....and I'm a Christian...not everyone was saved from a bad situation...most weren't.

[Soledad]

Sorry, but in some people's cases it does. Why is that a problem or offensive? I thought it was nice that they thought that they could make peace with their past?

Also, as a once very devout person, I don't need to be "taught" by "believers", I've been on that team before.

[NoahsMommy]

Originally posted by Soledad
Sorry, but in some people's cases it does. Why is that a problem or offensive? I thought it was nice that they thought that they could make peace with their past?

Also, as a once very devout person, I don't need to be "taught" by "believers", I've been on that team before.

It isn't offensive, at least not to me. I was making a point that not most everyone were saved from a horrible past. That is not was religion is for. That's my point.

I'm not exactly teaching...at least I hope I'm not. I'm just discussing this, just like you are.

[Soledad]

I don't think I ever stated that everyone who has religion has a sordid past. So, I didn't see the need to contest my statement.

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

originally posted by soledad
I don't know how many times I've heard the "I used to drink and do drugs and now I have Christ" tale. I'm well aware that Christians are not all do-gooders, in fact, I'm more inclined to think that they have far more sordid pasts than my own from some of the stories I've been told while being "witnessed" to. The thing is, I've never had a problem leading a moral life, and so I've never needed Christ to enter in and help me sort things out.

I wasn't trying to give my testimony or anything.... all that just stemmed from me and Tanya & Fritz. I was just trying to say that some christians have the wrong idea that they can do whatever they want and still be saved... which is wrong... and I thought by saying what I said *Some people think when you get saved you have to life like a nun... and that is not how it is... God helps you change your life you don't have to drop everything cold turkey.. he helps you.... but you have to ask for his help. * I thought I gave the wrong impression that I was that way...
There are a lot of great people with wonderful morals who do not believe... and that is great. I am not saying I have to have Christ to live a good life but it sure does make things easier!!
And I think why a lot of people who witness and seem to have a sordid past is because we are all human and ALL of us fall short and do things that we shouldn't .... these people just make their story public in hopes to give hope to others who are in the same situation..... which a lot of people may be... we can ignore it all we want but society STINKS and Christ is helping a lot of people who will receive Him.

[Ann]

Originally posted by popcornbird
As for proof that the prophets existed, besides what God has told us of all the prophets in all the books (the prophet stories are basically the same in the Torah, Bible, and Quran) this information has been passed from generation to generation, starting from people who knew, were realted to, or were companions to the prophets. The same stories come from numerous sources. When something comes from so many sources, it cannot be denied because we are getting the same stories from different places that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Oh really? What about fairytales? Let's take Snow White for example. That tale has been passed down during the centuries, from people in all countries. So, by the way you think that means that there once was a girl named Snow White who lived with seven midgets and had an evil stepmother with a magical mirror. Catch my drift here?




As for everything else that has been said here, I really don't feel like responding. I personally feel like people are pushing their beliefs on me with all their 100% positive talk about how God did this and that and it's just getting the better of me: If I keep responding I know I will sink to their level and that's nothing I wish to do.

[Ann]

Another thing that makes me upset and another reason why I am trying not to read this thread anymore is the fact that I know nothing will change: Pet Talk will still be a "Christian place". Know what I mean? For example, take Sara luvs her Tinky's signature. If I were to put, let's say, a Satanic religious symbol there, that would not be tolerated; neither from the members or from Karen. It would be deemed offensive or whatever. But yet, Christian symbols will always be alright and nice and signify a "moral and good" person.