Should This Soldier Be Charged ?

**mugsy** · 11-07-2003, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
What if he had just
freaked out & started shooting anything that moved. Would he
then be considered a brave but ill soldier?

Well, I don't know, but, I would say, "no" Liz. I think he would charged then too. However, he was supposed to be an interrogator. He never should have been allowed to go over there in the first place, but, like I said before, I don't think he should have been in the military. Also, when I said in my original post, that he saved a lot of lives when he came home, I meant on both sides!

**Tonya** · 11-07-2003, 06:26 PM

On one hand, it is really important that our soldiers are brave and reliable. But on the other hand, how do you know how you are going to react to death until it is right before you? I think his mental disability should be treated just like a physical disability. It is to bad that he could not handle it, but that is just a fact of life. I couldn't do it.

**mugsy** · 11-07-2003, 07:06 PM

Tonya, I don't think the military has a problem with it being treated as a physical disability. I am guessing that they just want him out of the military because of what he did because of this disability.

Being civilians, we just don't understand how the military works and why they do the things they do. I don't agree with some of what the military does, but, they have a reason for doing what they do, which is why most people couldn't handle it, although, there are a few of my students I wouldn't mind sending to boot camp so they can find out that there are people out there tougher than they are!

**Tonya** · 11-07-2003, 07:17 PM

I agree that they should take him out. That is a potential danger keeping him in. I just don't think he should be treated like a criminal. Just a simple medical discharge should do.

**lizbud** · 11-07-2003, 08:35 PM

Here's the story as carried in Stars & Stripes. America's
military newspaper read by all the troops. Sounds like his
superiors did have a problem with seeing him as needing
medical attention.

Friday, November 7, 2003

U.S. soldier charged with cowardice

Stars and Stripes
European edition, Friday, October 31, 2003

A soldier with Fort Carson’s 10th Special Forces Group has been charged with cowardice for allegedly refusing to do his duty in Iraq, according to a Thursday report in the Colorado Springs (Colo.) Gazette.

Special Forces interrogator Staff Sgt. Georg Porgany’s charge sheet says he showed “cowardly conduct as a result of fear, in that he refused to perform his duties,” according to the report.

If convicted in a court-martial, the soldier faces prison time and a dishonorable discharge. He was charged Oct. 14. His first court appearance is Nov. 7 at Fort Carson.

A cowardice charge is extremely rare, military law experts told the Gazette. Army officials couldn’t say Wednesday the last time it had been filed.

Porgany, 32, said he is wrongly charged.

The soldier said he experienced a “panic attack” after seeing the mangled body of an Iraqi man and told his superior he was heading for a “nervous breakdown.”

After that, Porgany said he didn’t request to go on missions nor did the unit ask him to go. He told the Gazette that he asked for help but was denied the care soldiers with “combat stress” are supposed to receive.

Instead of help, Porgany said, one of his superiors told him to “get his head out of his ass and get with the program.”

Army officials declined the Gazette’s requests to talk about the case.

Porgany’s unit was working on Sept. 29 out of Samarra, north of Baghdad, when Porgany saw the body of an Iraqi man brought into the Army compound.

Porgany had never seen anything like that. Shortly after, he said, he began shaking, couldn’t focus and kept throwing up his food.

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**RICHARD** · 11-09-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Soledad
I think it's good to get your news from a variety of sources, but I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced"

the only time 'fair and balanced' should go together is when
you see a tightrope walker on a real nice day.

I watch the shows with the best looking anchorwomen.

THEY tell the truth.

I have seen the stories and read about them and still wouldn't know what the guy was thinking or the circumstances.

best bet?

read the transcripts after the tribunal and then, just maybe, we'll get a sense of the day, the stress and what may have happened.

A military court charges you and you must prove your innocence (i may be wrong on that .......) so KNOWING the cowardice charge has been dropped makes me think that lawyers looked at the UCMJ and thought better of it..

the thing that bothers me about the whole media is that they WON"T drop the cowardice charges in their reports...they'll always tease it as a such, facts be DAMNED....

Another bonus 'best bet'-

I used to say, ' I'll only believe it when I see it in writing..'

lol........

Now i watch CNN over the weekend, you know, when they play the same tape over and over and over again......by sunday afternoon I feel like THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.....

Just like my TV, I'm programmed and ready to rock!!!

**Lady's Human** · 11-13-2003, 09:39 AM

IF the accounts are accurate, the soldier in question was suffering from normal combat fatigue, however, this soldier wasn't in a normal unit, he was with an SF unit. They are very hard nosed and need to be able to rely on each other in rough spots with no outside support, therefore standards of conduct are much higher than in a normal military unit. The individual in question needs to be out of where he is in the military, but you just can't transfer jobs. Patterns of behavior have to be established, psychiatric evals, med review boards have to be done, etc. If he gets an article 15 for dereliction of duty (Civilian equivalent of a misdemeanor charge) he will be reduced in rank, and the article 15 will establish the pattern of behavior needed to remove him from the unit. Not the way I'd want to get out, but as I said, you can't just say you want to transfer, esp when you're with a SF group.
BTW, in a military court, you are innocent until proven guilty, however, when brought in for court martial you will normally be found guilty of something. Courts martial are reserved for conduct and punishments above and beyond normal minor problems. The civilian equivalent would be a grand jury investigation.

**mugsy** · 11-13-2003, 11:58 AM

Thank you for the explanation. That enlightened me. It's nice to be able to hear it from a military person's perspective.

Btw....welcome to Pet Talk Lady's Human, but why is she lonely?

**lizbud** · 11-13-2003, 12:28 PM

Molly, he answered that in the Thread about destruction
of chemical weapons back in August,2003. Remember?

btw, how's the doggie & the human pup getting along by now?
Nice to hear from you again.

**lizbud** · 11-13-2003, 12:44 PM

I read this the other day. Another soldier, another case, but
still, why do these commanders seem to insist on some kind of
punishment instead of granting leave on compassionate grounds?

Army gives AWOL mom a break

Associated Press

FORT CARSON, Colo. -- A soldier who stayed home with her children during a custody battle instead of returning to Iraq was reassigned to Fort Carson, but also received a conflicting message -- that she could face administrative punishment.

Spc. Simone Holcomb, a medic in the Colorado National Guard, was reassigned Monday to Fort Carson to give her time to find care for her children or get out of the Army, post spokesman Lt. Col. Tom Budzyna said.

"She's been reassigned to Fort Carson for compassionate reasons and she's in the process of being demobilized from active duty status to National Guard status," Budzyna said late Monday.

However, Holcomb's commander called her earlier Monday from Iraq to tell her he was pursuing an administrative punishment against her, said Holcomb's lawyer, Giorgio Ra'Shadd. It was not clear what the punishment would be.

"They didn't give a reason. A commander in the field doesn't really have to give a reason," Ra'Shadd told Fox News.

Holcomb, 30, and her husband, Sgt. 1st Class Vaughn Holcomb, 40, were living with their children at Fort Carson near Colorado Springs when both were sent to Iraq in February.

Family members were taking care of their seven children, but the couple returned on emergency leave in September when Vaughn Holcomb's ex-wife went to court seeking full custody of two of the children from their previous marriage.

Simone Holcomb told a judge she would stay home with the children and refused an Army order to return to Iraq.

Her reassignment to Fort Carson was backdated to Oct. 10, the day she was due back in Iraq, which means she couldn't be charged with being absent without leave, Budzyna said.

Ra'Shadd and Budzyna said they were trying to sort out the conflicting messages.

"Common sense is going to prevail in this matter. We are going to take care of the soldier," Budzyna said.

Simone Holcomb referred questions to Ra'Shadd. He did not return a call seeking comment late Monday or Tuesday.

**mugsy** · 11-13-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by lizbud
Molly, he answered that in the Thread about destruction
of chemical weapons back in August,2003. Remember?

Boy Liz, you want me to remember THAT far back??? lol I think that was a time when I wasn't posting either.

**Lady's Human** · 11-13-2003, 07:40 PM

Lady and the "other puppy" (my daughter) are starting to figure things out, helped by generous handouts from the non-fuzzy puppy...LOL. Lady's a lonely pup because dad is deployed to FT drum (and just got extended for another year robably)

**lizbud** · 11-13-2003, 07:56 PM

Sorry about your extended stay. Military families often pay a very high price in the name of service to our country. Do you
think you could post a few pics of your fuzzy family member Lady
or the non-fuzzy pup?

How old is Lady? What breed, etc?
Kind of looks like a GSD in the small pic, but can't really tell.

**Lady's Human** · 11-14-2003, 09:35 AM

Lady is a half dal half lab mutt, only roblem for my wife right now is that she has the energy of a dal and the intelligence of a lab. She's a very high maintenance dog (LOTS of play time, etc. ) We adopted her from a shelter (Anyone in mass check out dogorphans.com, three very good family pets came from that shelter) but we don't think that the shelter got the whole story on why she was put up for adoption, as she's very shy around little children. The stated reason was an allergy problem with a baby, but due to the way she acts around Marilyn-Jean (2 years old) we think the kids in the home may have abused her a little while she was a pup.