Nelson Mandela on U.S. actions...

[ChrisH]

Originally posted by mugsy
.........I was looking at this stuff while my kids were working on worksheets today and I had some of them come up to ask questions and while I was looking things up they were reading someone's post and were asking what was going on and when they read some more they were quite disturbed by the anti-Americanism on the thread, they too were upset that people from/living in other countries were so hostile about Americans.

I too am disturbed by anti-Americanism on this thread, especially if it comes from your own countrymen/women. As for hostility from non-Americans, I think there is just one person who comes from another country that has posted somewhat in that manner is it not? Anyway, tell your kids that there is at least one other foreign member of Pet Talk who is not hostile to the U.S.A. Me! I am British and proud of it and am also pleased, as I am sure many, many , of my countrymen/women are too, to be part of the special relationship, as it has been called, between our two countries. And long may it be so.

Originally posted by Mugsy
And as for American patriotism "ranting" I think it's great that there are people out there who love the country where they were born or became naturalized so much that they want to shout it from the hilltops...and I don't mean just Americans. I think all people should be proud of the country of their birth, unless they dislike it because of atrosities that it has commited against them and they move.

Well said Molly!

Chris

[Soledad]

Yes, everyone should be concerned as to why America's own citizens object to the direction it's heading towards. There must be a reason, folks!

[mugsy]

Thanks Chris!

Richard, they didn't see your posts...they only read a couple of them...I knew which ones they could read and which ones they couldn't without me losing my job! lol....not that yours would!

Soledad, I don't want to belabor the point, but you have on a couple of threads said that you wouldn't continue discussion with me. Now, what fundamental principle are you talking about? The right to privacy stems from the Quartering Act prior to the Revolutionary War where King George (or Fat George as he was affectionately referred to by John Hancock) passed a law saying that any British soldier in Massachussetts could go into any house of his choice and be boarded by the family without their permission...so, it is that no one can enter your HOME without permission. And there has been only 1 American still living in America that has been trash talking America.

[Soledad]

Total Information Awareness


Nice background info, but I don't see how it's relevant.

Where I choose to live at the moment has no bearing on my comments. I am an American and always will be. The fact that I currently reside in New Zealand does not alter the meaning of my statements.

You don't want to belabor the point??! HA! That's a laugh. You seem to mention it in every thread I post in.

[mugsy]

I meant on here.

I assume that you meant that the fundamental principle on which this country was founded was the right to privacy and I just was explaining what the framers of our Constitution meant by that statement and why they were driven to add it to the Bill of Rights

[Cincy'sMom]

Originally posted by popcornbird


The Japanese were totally innocent too.

uh.....I am at a loss for words. The Japenses were totally innocent? The same Japanese that brought us into the WWII...who attacked Pear Harbor? How doe that=innocent? Okay, so maybe the civialians didn't derserve to die and maybe the bomb wasn't the right answer...but it was war and it brought a quick end to the war, possibly saving lives from contined battles.
Sorry the Japanese were far from innocent!

[mugsy]

One of the tragedies of war is that civilians are killed, but as a friend of mine so eloquently said (yes it's dripping with sarcasm), that's the price of doing business.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
One of the tragedies of war is that civilians are killed, but as a friend of mine so eloquently said (yes it's dripping with sarcasm), that's the price of doing business.

there's another saying that goes something like 'we fight wars to live in peace' my cousin, nephew, uncles, bro in law served, fought, were wounded and killed doing their 'business' so slugs like me can do what i want, and what i like, when i want.

the price of freedom means more to them because they go and fight on their own accord. no one bullies them, drafts them or sends them against their will. we have weekend soldiers, the national guard, they give up more in a time of war...ask a soldier if he WANTS to go to war. not likely! He or she will more likely tell you that they have joined and train so we will not have to fight any wars. if it was up to them they'd rather live in peace so there would never be any need for them again, old soldiers never die.....
we should remember them for what they have done for our country and i am sure that a few other places will toss their thanks into the hat.

as far as the people who disagree with our government they are the first to find solace in the protection of our government and it's political and military forces when their arse is hanging out in another country..............'oh, i disagree with my country...oh no, the indigenous people are restless, please fly me home to the good old USA!!!!!" cat spit.......

there is a politician here from california (senator dianne feinstein) that went to europe and refused to wear a lapel pin of the united states flag because she was leary of what the europeans would think.

i tend to believe that she is a chicken schist big mouth who feared for her safety, should she choose to show where she was from.news for her, i don't think she's gonna win another term......i ain't voting for her! i'll do my best to get her opponent elected.....

one thing that i will profusely thank out military and government for is giving me the ability to voice my opinions and to have others challenge them in an intelligent voice. it is a right to cherish and to use at every chance......

a person with the a good arguement is worth more than someone who will dismiss your point and lower the bar by not answering and evading a question you have asked......one of the nice things about discussions, if you have the taste for it, is to get your arse kicked all over the place and then come back with
you point and try to win the next round. that's what made america, having the chance to speak up, once again.

treat it like a debate class, get your ducks in a row, roll up your sleeves and let 'er rip. what's the worst that will happen?
you'll get a footprint on your seat and a bruise..........

it sure beats a 30 caliber slug thru the back of your head because
you dared to speak, act or behave like a free person.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Cincy'sMom


uh.....I am at a loss for words. The Japenses were totally innocent? The same Japanese that brought us into the WWII...who attacked Pear Harbor? How doe that=innocent? Okay, so maybe the civialians didn't derserve to die and maybe the bomb wasn't the right answer...but it was war and it brought a quick end to the war, possibly saving lives from contined battles.
Sorry the Japanese were far from innocent!

I'm talking about the millions of innocent civilian Japanese that died.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird


I'm talking about the millions of innocent civilian Japanese that died.

p.s. the united states dropped leaflets days before the bombs were dropped telling the civvies to get out of dodge ( the city not the car.......) before that date......funny we didn't see any at P.H....

[Soledad]

Not true, Richard. The leaflets were dropped in conjunction with the bomb.


Look here:

Bomb leaflets

[KYS]

The killing of innocent people in Japan when the bombs
hit a heavly populated area was still an ACT OF WAR!.
Japan attacked us first!!

Japan was trying to conquer parts of Asia, and while
doing so comminted attrocities to China.
Germany with her ally's were trying to
conquer Europe, while
doing so they rounded up, tortured, killed millions of Jews, gypsy's, handicap and others, starving and trying to innalate a whole religion.

This is what happens when you're neutral, turn a blind eye and do not get involved because since it's not your country than
it's not your business!
I wish America would have entered WW2 sooner.

(Not to get side tract, But Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because America cut off oil and other supplies to Japan.)
Their are "MANY" facets why countries go to war, one
of them is economics.

On a lighter note: Ever wonder if this world would be any different if woman had the Power instead of Men.
My husband thinks their would be more wars because he says we are petty. I think he is wrong and we would have a better place.

Proud to be an American.

[Chinadoll]

Originally posted by Ann
I focused a lot of my article/rant on that actually... See, the difference is that the 3290 people killed at Pearl Harbor were almost all military, and the over 300 000 people that died at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians. The aftermath in Japan was terrible as well, with thousands of people dying in cancer and other diseases. The total lack of responsibility in dropping the first nuclear bomb (without a thought or care towards the consequences) was only out-done by dropping the second bomb on Nagasaki, after already seeing the terrible outcome. Pearl Harbor was actual war; Hiroshima and Nagasaki were murder.

So was the fact that the men that died at Pearl Harbor were military make their deaths any less horrifying than those that died in Japan?


And let me clarify since this seems to have gone to America is good or bad thread. I love my country. Are there problems with the way it is run? Yes. Do I disagree with the way some things are done? Yes. BUT, overall I believe I live in a great country that I am proud of. Does it bother me that people think so ill of the US? Yes. Do I respect their right to an opinion? Yes. Do I believe that some generalizations and speculations made need more research? Yes.

Everyone here is a pet lover and for that reason alone I respect you. I find everyone's opinion here intriguing although I have to disagree with some of the sentiment. Debate=good Name-calling=bad I'll step off my soap box now.

[Ann]

Like I previously said, I'll only respond to one thing here, since I felt that the comment below was the only thing that dignified a response.

Originally posted by Chinadoll
So was the fact that the men that died at Pearl Harbor were military make their deaths any less horrifying than those that died in Japan?

To me, yes it does. Those people in Pearl Harbor were military and knew what they were getting themselves into. By being in the military service you know that you can die "for your country" at any given second and you've accepted that. The people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were civilians and were not aware of anything of the sort.

[Soledad]

Richard -

You want me to treat this like debate class? Let me regress a little then and humour you.

"as far as the people who disagree with our government they are the first to find solace in the protection of our government and it's political and military forces when their arse is hanging out in another country..............'oh, i disagree with my country...oh no, the indigenous people are restless, please fly me home to the good old USA!!!!!" cat spit....... "

Please, tell me who did this and when. I'd like more to go on than just random events. You have to have a case to defend it or have it tested, you can't just pull a large generalisation out of your head.

If you were in some sly way referring to my own situation, rest assured, New Zealand is a far safer place than the States will ever be. Restless "natives"? Do you know anything about NZ?

And just because someone disagrees with the government they are rendered a non-citizen and devoid of any US protections? That's interesting. I seem to recall a great number of conservatives decrying the Clinton administration. Perhaps they should have been left to die on some god forsaken island?

I did debate in high school and junior high and won on a regular basis. If you want to debate, I suggest you come up with real topics.

You might want to address the leaflet comment while you're at it.