4 month old puppy with pain in hips/back legs

[wolfsoul]

Also; I don't know where you read that I am a vet and more knowledgable than vets. I said that Pat Hastings is more knowledgeable on structure and issues caused by puppy foods than a a vet, because she had studied over 30,000 litters and bred over 30 different breeds, and studied the results of different foods and the structural results. She is the structure guru of the dog world, and has done 10,000 X the amount of research that any vet has on structure.

I highly recommend vets to go to her seminars as it really sheds a light on puppy food. I don't nessecarily agree with her choice food, but I do see the damage that the puppy foods cause through her amazing personal experiences.
http://www.dogfolk.com/

[MonicanHonda]

Here is what I have to say about this...

Yes, calcium should be lower in the puppy to allow for even bone growth. High calcium causes increased growth and can lead to bone diseases. However, adult foods are usually calorically less dense and to make up for that, you have to feed more adult food, ultimately leading to more calcium intake...

http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_a.../thread/663911

[wolfsoul]

According to Pat Hastings, it is actually the calories that are the main issue.
http://roverexposure.com/wordpress/?p=7
"Pat pointed out that in a “natural” situation, a puppy would eat milk, then would get regurgitated food (i.e. food which has already lost some nutrients), then would get the leavings from a kill (i.e. the lower-calorie less-choice parts of the animal), and would only get the high-calorie/all-you-can-eat food when it was old enough to expend the energy actually hunting the food itself. So feeding a high-calorie premium puppy food is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. She says that almost all puppies thrive and grow properly on a high-quality adult diet."
Which makes sense, because when we're looking at morbidly obese babies and toddlers, these children are significantly taller than their normal counterparts.

Numbers and data sound very convincing, but when you listen to someone who has evaluated over 30,000 litters and studied the nutritional effects on growth and structure more than any other person (with no original ties to any food companies) and has come to the very obvious conclusion that puppy food can cause detrimental issues, and you see the pictures of these issues, that is alot more convincing. I wouldn't feed Pat's choice food, myself, based on ingredients; However I would never feed the top worst foods on her list either, which are consistently puppy foods.

Also, I wouldn't see why anyone would feed more adult food to make up for the lost calories in the puppy food. Maybe I am talking in a free-feeder perspective, but my dogs will only eat as much as they want.

[MonicanHonda]

I know you're a successful breeder so you've probably done countless hours of research just as I have. I like a lot of what Pat has to say, but I also disagree with some. I haven't studied much on large breeds with kibble, as I'm a raw feeder... so thank you for giving me this information. I'll definitely be doing more research on it.

[MonicanHonda]

My friend, after looking at Orijen dog food, showed me this...

Orijen's ALS formulas have 480 kcal per cup. Their adult thas 450.
Their LBP formula has 410.
LBP formulas have come a looooong way in the past 20 years. They are now formulated for controlled growth, with proper calcium levels, correct fat levels, etc. I do agree with her that excess energy will cause fast growth. However, so far I've checked Orijen, Fromm, Acana, and Wellness, and in each and every one the regular adult food has MORE kcal per cup than in the LBP formula, and in some the LBA formula had the same.
So for example, I decide to feed my dog Wellness LBP, and my puppy is a 25 lb Mastiff puppy, he will eat about 2.5-3 cups a day, being in the 6-11 week age range. The adult formula actually recommends feeding the SAME amount for a pup of that size. So LBP is recommending 915 kcal min per day for my pup, but the adult super5mix chicken is recommending 1017.5 not to mention you're increasing calcium intake.

At the end of the day, I'm ALWAYS going to look at calcium levels, and then energy levels if I'm considering it for an ALS food. But I am a firm believer in LBP food...

So maybe it depends on the brand and maker of the food you're feeding.

Maybe it depends on your