Should Teachers Pay Be Linked To Student Grades

[Miss Z]

Its most likely the parents faults. If your not going to help your kid with school or force them, then it YOUR OWN fault your kid is failing.

That could well be true, however I think a lot of it also depends on the classroom atmosphere. It's pretty hard for one student actually wanting to get on with work whilst everyone else is trying to make the teacher's life as difficult as possible. It's certainly true of the state system here that the bright kids get lost amongst the crowd.

Maybe we should steer our education system away from getting every kid into college. Not every student is going to go to higher education so why waste money trying to get every snotty kid into college?

You took the words right out of my mouth as far as the university system over here goes. We're a little country with a lot of people, and we simply don't have the places available to meet the government's quotas of having so many ethnic minority/dyslexic/autistic/deprived background students before academic potential and course suitability is even assessed.

I can't say I agree with the topic of the post, as I think teachers in failing schools deal with some horrendous situations that they really shouldn't have to deal with. Knives, physical violence, and just the other day I was reading about a teacher who was put through a trial on rape allegations (she was in fact stalked by three of her students, who then, with the whiff of compensation, decided to blame her when she gave them the cold shoulder.) However, I also don't think it's much worse than the millions of pounds poured into these schools to give them fancy new 'academy' names, and facilities that are usually graffiti'ed or burned down in due course. I don't know how to save the state system, but I don't believe in either of these methods.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

As a teacher, I have to say NO, I don't agree with this legislation. I don't really think people in "normal" jobs have a grasp on just how hard teachers work or how many hours they put in, or how much money they spend out of their own pockets to teach their students as best they can.

When I was teaching, I thought about my students a lot out of the classroom, and ways I could help them, not to mention all the school nights/conferences/meetings/grading/preparing lessons, etc. It is a LOT of work, and even if you try to reach every student there are parents who will completely blow you off, kids that come to school hungry, and many, many expectations you need to meet. As a teacher you can do everything within your power to help your students and it may work some or even most of the time. However, it is not within a teacher's control to make sure parents are doing their jobs, too. You would not believe the amount of parents who ignore correspondence and refuse to help their kids or even make sure they do their homework (or even make sure they have a lunch/and or lunch money!).

I believe if teachers get paid based on student performance, the only schools that will have enough teachers are ones in wealthy areas. The kids who really need the help will again fall short.

[Lady's Human]

Money spent per capita DOES NOT EQUAL better education.

[cassiesmom]

There is an Oprah show where she sent a crew to two schools. Harper High School in Chicago's Englewood neighborhood, and Neuqua Valley High School in Naperville (west suburb of Chicago). I was stunned and saddened by the conditions at Harper. The desks looked like they were from the '60s; they wanted to have a band program but didn't have nearly enough instruments; kids who qualified for AP courses had to travel to another school; the pool was empty and the benches in the boys' weight room were patched together with duct tape. Neuqua is a pretty typical suburban high school, loads of accelerated and AP classes, gym, pool, band and choir, sports, arts. Oprah then had some kids from each school visit the other school. The kids from Neuqua were shocked at what they saw and wanted to know how students could do well with what they had. The kids from Harper - well, you could have knocked them over with a feather.

A couple of years ago, one of the Chicago aldermen tried to register a group of Chicago public high school students up at New Trier, which is one of the best, if not the best, high schools in the state.

What I want to know is - colleges want a diverse student body, but how can a student from Harper do as well as someone from Neuqua or New Trier? Are colleges holding students from the best schools to higher admissions standards? How can two dissimilar schools prepare students to the same ability?

How do high schools assess whether a student is college material or not, and what do they do for those who are not?

[Cataholic]

As a teacher, I have to say NO, I don't agree with this legislation. I don't really think people in "normal" jobs have a grasp on just how hard teachers work or how many hours they put in, or how much money they spend out of their own pockets to teach their students as best they can.

As an attorney, I can say the same thing. I can easily think of $30,000 in uncollected attorney fees- I did the work, and I did not get paid. I have a blackberry, internet access at home to stay in touch with people on Friday- the day I don't work, and don't get paid (LOL), I have certain clothes I buy for work, I call people and re-remind them of court dates, I meet clients at their homes or some other place to make it easier on them. I could go on and on. MOST professionals work more than the 'face time' reflected in the office. I had a client call me at 10 pm one night! And, no, it was not an ER. I didn't sign up for a 9-5 job, and I knew that going in. Saturday appointments cause the client says, "I work during the week, so I need to see you after work or on the weekend". Uh, hello? Guess what? I work, too! During the day, and not on the weekends (as a rule).

I don't think teachers hold the market on how hard they work.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

As an attorney, I can say the same thing. I can easily think of $30,000 in uncollected attorney fees- I did the work, and I did not get paid. I have a blackberry, internet access at home to stay in touch with people on Friday- the day I don't work, and don't get paid (LOL), I have certain clothes I buy for work, I call people and re-remind them of court dates, I meet clients at their homes or some other place to make it easier on them. I could go on and on. MOST professionals work more than the 'face time' reflected in the office. I had a client call me at 10 pm one night! And, no, it was not an ER. I didn't sign up for a 9-5 job, and I knew that going in. Saturday appointments cause the client says, "I work during the week, so I need to see you after work or on the weekend". Uh, hello? Guess what? I work, too! During the day, and not on the weekends (as a rule).

I don't think teachers hold the market on how hard they work.

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.

[Lady's Human]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

LH, I see where you are coming from but I don’t agree. Whenever you work with people, things are not as cut and dried as fixing a broken machine. Think about this scenario (I’m not entirely clear how things run at the postal service, so forgive me if this is a clumsy analogy).

Let’s pretend each employee at the PO is expected to process 500 pieces of mail per week. No exceptions. If you fail to meet your goal, you will have your pay docked. At your PO, 75% of your mail takes more time to process than standard mail. You do not have the option to work later/longer in order to get your work done. Your average is typically 400 pieces of mail/week, because it would not do to have different standards for different post offices. Assuming you want don’t want your pay docked, what are your options? Cut corners (so you get it done faster, but maybe not as well), quit, or find an easier post office to work at.

[Lady's Human]

No, I'm not missing the human in the equations, they are part of the machine.

To take a different tack.....

For 2 years I was the ops NCO for a training team, and also an instructor.

I was a teacher. The military in wartime has a fairly harsh grading curve. If you teach your students well, they stand a far better chance of living than if they have a lousy instructor. Same varied inputs, (everyone from gung ho soldiers to people pissed because they just joined for the college money), but only one standard. At the end of the day, the soldiers leaving the training team's care HAD to know their job.

Incompetence on the podium was not put up with, and instructors were removed for...................their students (soldiers) not learning the required tasks. No questions asked. When 1A decided that soldiers weren't learning, the instructors were removed. In a few cases I know of the removal from the podium ended their careers.

Were otherwise competent soldiers careers ended because their students didn't learn?

Yup.

Did they have control over the soldiers they received to train? Nope.

There HAVE to be performance standards for teachers. What they should be is open for debate, but without standards, the education system is done.

[Cataholic]

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.

Right now, I have chosen to work a 4 day work week. I will go back to work 'full time' once J goes to school full time. So, these comments are based on a presumption that I am working a 5 day work week. I work anywhere between 50 and 60 hours a week. Of that time, I would bet about 80% is 'billable' time. For billable time, I 'should' get paid- whether I win or lose a court case (and, the majority of what I do is court room work, so, nice guess there! (or I told you that already, LOL)). I have no magical way of getting people to pay, unless I get my fee up front. Asking someone - and often they are just like you and I, regular working people, to fund a minimum of $5000- $7500 today for the work I will do over the next 6 months to a year is really difficult. They won't pay. I can usually get $1500 or so upfront, and I blow through that pretty quickly. So, I don't get 100% of my time- ever. Of the 80% that is billable, I bet I have a collection issue on 30%?? When you put that final figure into a 50-60 hour work week, I really don't make that much, LOL. I don't know many attorneys that really make that much. Sure, some are out there, and the big firms in the big cities really DO make money. They also bill between 1800-2000 hours a year. Bill, not work hours. Big difference.

I guess my 'thing' is- most of us work and get paid on a performance basis. Salespeople....they don't control the merchandise they sell, the general public to whom they are to sell, the market, the store location, etc. Doctors....they do a crappy job and they lose patients. Like lawyers. Like restaurants, like sales people, like everyone- seemingly, but, teachers.

[katladyd]

i am a teacher, and performance pay makes sense, until you are the teacher with all the students with special needs in her classroom. You are not going to look as good on paper as the teacher with more seniority who may not be as good a teacher as you are, but has many gifted students in her class. I am a special ed teacher who puts in many more hours than my fellow teachers in mainstream classes, but according to merit pay, I would get paid less. Now, I used to work in the legal profession, my boyfriend is an attorney of 30+ years experience, and the two are so unrelated to each other it is silly! I am thinking of going back into the legal field. It pays more and the hours are fewer...they really are.

[lizbud]

i am a teacher, and performance pay makes sense, until you are the teacher with all the students with special needs in her classroom. You are not going to look as good on paper as the teacher with more seniority who may not be as good a teacher as you are, but has many gifted students in her class. I am a special ed teacher who puts in many more hours than my fellow teachers in mainstream classes, but according to merit pay, I would get paid less. Now, I used to work in the legal profession, my boyfriend is an attorney of 30+ years experience, and the two are so unrelated to each other it is silly! I am thinking of going back into the legal field. It pays more and the hours are fewer...they really are.

I think you make a great point. I have two neices who are special Ed.
teachers. They both have shared their experiences at family gatherings.
I think it sure takes special gifts to be teachers in that field.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license. Also, most teachers are contracted a certain amount of time at a school, for example 1-3 years, and at the end of their contract they can be let go or rehired. In addition, most schools have standards for their teachers, but since most education laws are state mandated and not federally mandated, this can vary from state to state and district to district.

The one really big exception to the fact that most laws are not federally mandated is IDEA. This is a federal law which requires students with disabilities to be educated in the "least restrictive environment." In many cases, this means in the general classroom some of the time while being pulled out (thereby reducing valuable instruction time) for special services (such as speech therapy, meeting with a special education teacher, etc.). So, it is not uncommon in some schools to have a classroom which is comprised of mostly students who are ESL and have a learning disability (BTW, ESL is not considered a learning disability, though it is very possible to have a student who is ESL and has an LD).

I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results.

[Lady's Human]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license.

And this is different from most other profession show? Standards in many, many fields change constantly and skilled workers have to constantly update their training. This is not unique to the teaching profession. The main difference between a teacher and an electronic technician in that regard is that your professional updates count for a higher degree, while ours means we simply get to keep our jobs.

I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results.

2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.

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