Government run health care

[Edwina's Secretary]

I recently had a phone call from a medical facility - NOT the government - a provider. Wanted to know what they should do with an overpayment my husband made....

over 12 months ago.

You should also check out how long doctors wait for payment from private insurance companies.

Had a letter recently from a provider...my insurer was taking so long to pay they wanted me to ante up. Very threatening.

Private insurers are slow pay as well.

[Marigold2]

It can take over a year for private insurance companies to pay and in some cases two years. I fight with them all the time, it's part of my job. Often it is a mistake on the patients part, they didn't have the right insurance card, or the receptionist or billers fault as they didn't enter the data correct or submit correct or it could be the processing company, the electronic biller or just the insurance company having some fun with you. I send patients bills that are two years old because that is how long it took for us to get the claim paid after fighing to get the correct insurance card from said patient, submitting it once, then again and again and doing an appeal. Such fun, can't even tell you. Finally after 19 months they pay $6.53, the rest went toward your deductable and now I am sending you a bill for $235.78. If you have a question please feel free to call your insurance company, what you mean you haven't done that yet? Well...................................

I recently had a phone call from a medical facility - NOT the government - a provider. Wanted to know what they should do with an overpayment my husband made....

over 12 months ago.

You should also check out how long doctors wait for payment from private insurance companies.

Had a letter recently from a provider...my insurer was taking so long to pay they wanted me to ante up. Very threatening.

Private insurers are slow pay as well.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I was talking with a neighbor. She worked at United for over 30 years. She did all different jobs. She was a flight attendant, worked the ticket counter - even did lost luggage.

She could tell all sorts of stories about working at United.

She didn't know so much about other airlines.

However, I would not consider her an authority on how to fix a jet engine. Or fly a plane. Or run an airlines.

Just because someone worked in or for an industry does not make them an expert on or about that industry!

Opps! Forgot the required snarky remark..."I have to laugh here!"

[RICHARD]

Stunned? It's medical fact. Not like it's my opnion, or anything.

To echo ES, I don't understand how you don't know this if you indeed worked in a medical environment, but I'll explain it for you anyway.

Pathogens, bacteria in particular, undergo mutation in a number of their population. The change in their genotype may give them an immunity to the effects of a drug. Most of the time, it doesn't. But sometimes it does.

Under normal circumstances, i.e. without the presence of drugs, the typical strains and the mutated, resitant organism live alongside each other, in the ileum, for example. The strains compete with one another to survive. In these conditions, the resistant organism have no advantage over the typical strains, and it is highly likely that the resistant organism will die out. Thus, it's resistant gene is lost.

However, introduce a drug into the environment. All the typical strains are destroyed, but the resistant organism remains. It now has no competition and is able to reproduce quite happily, each of it's daughter cells carrying this saving grace gene. The drug administered is rendered useless against the pathogen. The pathogen spreads to other people and now we have nothing effective to fight it.

That is how natural selection works - a change in the environment favouring a particular genotype, causing extinction and evolution.

The more drugs that are being exposed to the pathogens, the better conditons we are providing for much more dangerous strains. Plus, many bacteria are able to exchange genetic information via plasmids, or indeed their own DNA, to other species of pathogen, so the resistance genes are not limited to only one condition.

An example? Staphylococcus aureus! S.Aureus is present in your respiratory system and on the surface of your skin right now. Occasionally, it will cause a mild throat infection. At first, we treated it with penicillin, as pencillin was the wonder, cure-all drug at that time. Before long, penicillin no longer worked. At that time, no one really knew why.

Then this condition was treated with methicillin. It was oversubscribed as people wanted to keep popping these pills everytime they felt a bit hoarse. So we get methicillin-resistant staphyloccocus aureus. The first MRSA.

So then we're in a bit of trouble, and combat MRSA with vancomycin. We can't find anything else to administer but vancomycin. The inevitable happens. Now the most dangerous form of MRSA is Multiple Resistant Staphylococcus aureus.

So, again, it is practically and morally wrong to oversubscribe drugs.

WTF, do you think that I would say I didn't understand the "natural" albeit drug "engineered", pathogens?

Duh, I could have given you the "Pathogens are for Dummies" spiel.


I was looking for YOUR spin on the morality and "practically" of over PRESCRIBING of drugs.


Do you mean it's practically immoral?


If it's immoral and unpractical to overprescribe drugs that cause mutating pathogens, next time you go to the doctor, tell him to shove the prescription.

--------------------------

I wonder what immorality and 'practically' the physician, who gave my mom chemo therapy in a last ditch effort to keep her alive, was trying to perpetrate on her being. As our esteemed president alluded to before?
He may have wanted to keep her alive so he could make more money.


One thing that people are very shy and ignorant about is asking what meds they are give post-office visit. The physician will ask you about what you are allergic, what meds you already take and then he will prescribe you a med as he sees fit.

Yes, some doctors will prescribe front line meds because they are wont to give out the generics bcause the pharm companies have them in their pockets.

LOLOLOL,

Ask a physician/doctor/surgeon how many people do not give a flying shiat about WHAT they are given to take for their ills.

Some of them ask about the cure/meds they saw on House or Scrubs.


You say Toe may toe, I say flesh eating bacteria, "Doctor, save my life".

[Miss Z]

Oh goodness – here's the dummy back, I think you must have thrown it out your pram.

You know, RICHARD, I used to love your posts, as witty and as crazy as they were. You had such a way with words.

Now, when every other word is “shiat”, “crap”, “arsed”, “turd”, “BS” and a hundred and one other abbreviations that make trying to understand what you’re actually saying verging on the impossible, half the time I can’t be bothered to waste my energy on them.

Perhaps if you’d been clearer with your question, I could have answered it for you in the manner you desired. Evidently, I wasn’t the only one who didn’t understand what you were asking, as ES also took it to mean that you didn’t get the science behind superbugs.

Do you mean it's practically immoral?

No, obviously, that’s why I put an ‘and’ in between.

• Practically – in practice.
• Morally – well, if a medic has morals, then s/he works for the prevention of suffering due to disease. That doesn’t mean they dispense everything from flucloxacillin to fairy dust just to keep the patient happy. For yes, that is immoral.

If it's immoral and unpractical to overprescribe drugs that cause mutating pathogens, next time you go to the doctor, tell him to shove the prescription.

Pfft. Get over yourself. That wasn’t what I was saying and you’re blatantly aware of that.

If you need treatment, then you need it, no two questions about it. But, if people visit the doctor and expect to be prescribed something, then THAT is where the problem lies.

Gah, I thought you said you understood this. Drugs don’t cause mutations in pathogens. They’re happening all the time, regardless of what is happening around them. Drugs provide ideal environments for mutated strains.

Well, even if you didn’t need the biology lesson, it did me good. I’m applying for Vet. Med. this winter. At least I got a revision session out of it.

[lizbud]

It seems to me you won't have a bit of trouble with your future studies.

[Edwina's Secretary]

You know, RICHARD, I used to love your posts, as witty and as crazy as they were. You had such a way with words.

Now, when every other word is “shiat”, “crap”, “arsed”, “turd”, “BS” and a hundred and one other abbreviations that make trying to understand what you’re actually saying verging on the impossible, half the time I can’t be bothered to waste my energy on them.

You forgot "AH" "FW" "effing" "Effs" Really likes "Eff"

and my new favorite..."POS". I had to ROLFLMAO on that one. Most people that means Point of Sale.

For the life of me I cannot figure out FW.....

[RICHARD]

Oh goodness – here's the dummy back, I think you must have thrown it out your pram.

You know, RICHARD, I used to love your posts, as witty and as crazy as they were. You had such a way with words.

Now, when every other word is “shiat”, “crap”, “arsed”, “turd”, “BS” and a hundred and one other abbreviations that make trying to understand what you’re actually saying verging on the impossible, half the time I can’t be bothered to waste my energy on them.

Perhaps if you’d been clearer with your question, I could have answered it for you in the manner you desired. Evidently, I wasn’t the only one who didn’t understand what you were asking, as ES also took it to mean that you didn’t get the science behind superbugs.




No, obviously, that’s why I put an ‘and’ in between.

• Practically – in practice.
• Morally – well, if a medic has morals, then s/he works for the prevention of suffering due to disease. That doesn’t mean they dispense everything from flucloxacillin to fairy dust just to keep the patient happy. For yes, that is immoral.

Pfft. Get over yourself. That wasn’t what I was saying and you’re blatantly aware of that.

If you need treatment, then you need it, no two questions about it. But, if people visit the doctor and expect to be prescribed something, then THAT is where the problem lies.

Gah, I thought you said you understood this. Drugs don’t cause mutations in pathogens. They’re happening all the time, regardless of what is happening around them. Drugs provide ideal environments for mutated strains.

Well, even if you didn’t need the biology lesson, it did me good. I’m applying for Vet. Med. this winter. At least I got a revision session out of it.

So, you cut and pasted your answer about pathogens?

Look,

If you want to talk about bio/physio and anatomical stuff o.k.

If a medic has morals? That's pretty much a slap in the face of all docs out there. THey have to deal with morals more times than I would or could.....
Your mileage may differ.

I've had fairy dust, but the flucloxacillin I'd have to check out the PDR to see what that is-either that or pick it off of a website or school paper. Psst, do they teach pharmacology in regular school.


Drugs don't cause mutations?

Why do pathogens mutate and become resistant to the compounds in medicines?

Here's another question.

THINK about this one.

Drugs are ideal enviroments for mutated strains, but they are not the cause of mutated strains?

So, if you go into a lab with an MS and you add a drug to it, It will grow larger?

Wouldn't the strain have to mutate to feed or grow in the "ideal enviroment"?
And why would a moral physician give a compound that would help a pathogen grow in this ideal enviroment?

Dude,

I was over myself a while back, apparently you are way more mature than I am, so pardon me whilst I go back to my meager existence.
If I have get over myself, I'll lend you my high jump pole. The women's record is 6.6 meter and was set last month.

Read up on the published writings of Dr Leonard Kokintz.

[Edwina's Secretary]

apparently you are way more mature than I am,

Finally...you post something with which I agree!

[Miss Z]

So, you cut and pasted your answer about pathogens?

Oh, how you must underestimate my intellect so! You cannot revise by cutting and pasting. Google my words, if you so desire, you will find that they are my own.

As for the next bit...

Psst, do they teach pharmacology in regular school.

A little. But, because I am just curious like that, I often do a little reading around the topics we're given simply to pass exams.

Drugs don't cause mutations?

Why do pathogens mutate and become resistant to the compounds in medicines?

Here's another question.

THINK about this one.

Drugs are ideal enviroments for mutated strains, but they are not the cause of mutated strains?

You say that you could have given me a 'Pathogens for dummies', and yet you don't know how this works?

No. I have read of one obscure protozoan responding directly to drug treatment, though.

Mutations arise as a fault in copying of the DNA the vast majority of the time.

An organism cannot think 'Hang on, these conditions are kind of killing me today, better mutate fast!' It dies. IF a mutation has arisen that gives the organism an advantage, it may well survive.Again, natural selection driving extinction and evolution.

You cannot stop it happening, but you can decrease the occurences by administering less medication.

If you don't believe my biology, that's cool. All I can say is that I managed to score in the top ten points in my AS level, and I was able to get on a course, specifically on this kind of stuff, of the top twenty or so young biochemists in the country - so somewhere along the lines, I must be doing something right!

[blue]

Google my words, if you so desire, you will find that they are my own.

Shes got ya there buddy, I only googled 3 or 4 paragraphs however.

Miss Z at least posts her own ideas.

[RICHARD]

Shes got ya there buddy, I only googled 3 or 4 paragraphs however.

Miss Z at least posts her own ideas.

LOLOLOLOL,

Actually, I don't know how "things work" I think I have a Crick in my Watson DNA.

I had a bad amino acid trip in the 80's - I blame that on my parents-I paid for my own education and couldn't afford the good shiat.

[Puckstop31]

I saw this in the comments section of the CNN article about the "poll" they took right after the President's speech.

"Again, I ask, under what constitutional authority do the President's propsed changes to fundamental state/individual rights fall under?

President Obama is well versed on constitutional matters but his speech so blurs and confuses the lines between state and federal responsibilities as to be mind boggling. His metaphor about auto insurance is just ridiculous. Automotive inurance is ENTIRELY a states decision whether to require and/or enforce; but, even more pressing is the difference between the "priledge" to drive and the "right" to breathe.

In all realtiy, the only way that the federal government can possibly infringe in indivual rights to the exent that the president expressed in his speech would be through a constitution convention to add amendments to our governmental contract. It is time for that call I believe."


AMEN! This President and this Congress walk and talk with a swagger that puts President Bush to shame. Well, if you are SO confident that you are doing the right thing and that America is behind you, do it the right way... The Constitutional way, Mr. President.


We are promised a unprecedented level of freedom and liberty in this country. If we as a people want to surrender more of that liberty to have a little more "safety", fine. But do it the way the Constitution provides for and not ram it up our rears in 6 weeks. Changing our healthcare system has life altering consequences for EVERYbody. Why in the world would ANYbody want to do this in such a hurry?

[Hellow]

My comment on Government-run healthcare, and I don't really care to read this entire thread, so bear with me if I sound like Captain Obvious:


You all do notice that the government has to get the money to pay for your healthcare from somewhere. Guess where they are going to get it from?

Taxes.
Which means taxes will go up.
With a couple million+ more people depending upon the government even more, who knows how much they will go up.
The entire thing comes back to slap us in the face in the span of a month or less.

Furthermore, you are placing your entire life in the hands of the Government, whether you like to admit it or not. So, instead of private corporations getting to decide whether you get treatment and live or not, the government is going to do it for them.


Congratulations.

[Edwina's Secretary]

My comment on Government-run healthcare, and I don't really care to read this entire thread, so bear with me if I sound like Captain Obvious:


Furthermore, you are placing your entire life in the hands of the Government, whether you like to admit it or not. So, instead of private corporations getting to decide whether you get treatment and live or not, the government is going to do it for them.


Congratulations.

Thank you for the congratulations! Why do you think it is better for private corporations, whose motive is profit - which they make by NOT paying claims - than the government?

And no, I am not putting my entire life in the hands of the government. What meaningless hyperbole! The government does not and will not decide what I eat, where I work, who I marry, where I live, etc. etc. etc. Poppycock statement you made.

As for my taxes paying for medical care...who on earth do you think pays for it now? The Tooth Fairy???

I and my employer pay insurance premiums. I and my employer pay taxes. The premiums paid by me and on my behalf cover my medical expenses, the medical expenses of other participants and their dependents and lazy pikers who don't bother paying premiums. The rest of the medical expenses are paid by the government - using my tax dollars.

This is one of my pet peeves in this discussion. People who don't have insurance and are proud of it.

If they need medical care they will get it. Broken bone, serious illness - they will not be turned away from the hospital.

Maybe, maybe...they will work out a payment over time. But...the hospital must pay its employees and suppliers NOW. So they must borrow money to cover those expenses while they wait for the pikers to pay.

And who pays the cost of borrowing money? And the services that don't get paid for by the recipient of the medical care?

Me. And you. If you have medical insurance. And/or pay taxes.

This debate is not about cost. It is about whether medical care for the people of this country should be determined by the profit motive of private corporations or the government that is chartered with the general welfare of its people.

Do you sound like Captain Obvious? No, you sound like Captain Doesn't Know What He Is Talking About.