In Defense of Aggressive Dogs...

[buttercup132]

Well since that was my quote I guess this thread was directed at me.

As far as the "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized" statement ... I don't think anyone said or meant that. I said something to the effect of IF your dogs are truly aggresive, and IF they attack someone, they WILL be euthanized. I don't think anyone is or was making the gross generalization that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", simply trying to get across the fact that dogs that DO bite are killed

And that is exactly what I ment by it.
I do not classify a dog that is a fear biter,DA or anything like that to be agressive and need to be put down.
Would a fear BITER attack someone? Not likely..

Someone said that they got attacked by a dog and they didn't provoke it at all then that dog imo should be put down.
I know it's rare for a dog to be HA but it's not impossible and with all the inbreeding, crappy breeders, and irresponsible owners now a days it's becoming less rare.

[Shelteez2]

Third: Is there really such thing as "unprovoked" aggression? Most dog owners have inadequate knowledge of dog body language. Additionally, most people believe there must be a specific, tangible "provocation" to initiate an aggressive attack. And when they miss the transmission of body language leading up to the attack, they assume an attack is "unprovoked" - when, in fact, it CLEARLY has a cause. There are *extremely* few and *extremely* rare cases in which a dog actually has unprovoked aggression. People, we need to remember that "unprovoked" means absolutely no cause at all - in other words, a dog who LITERALLY flies off the handle at random times of the day toward random people in random situations. But if there's even the slightest rhyme or rhythm to a dog's aggression, then the attacks DO have a cause and DO have provocation and DO have a trigger/stimulus.

So what am I trying to say? Before you make a blanket statement that "all aggressive dogs should be euthanized", consider, just for a moment, that, perhaps, there is more to the issue than meets the eye. And consider, for just a minute, that, perhaps, the dog deserves more than derision and euthanasia.

--- Alright. Off my soap box. I've just really really had it with these blanket statements regarding aggressive dogs.----

I just wanted to quote this paragraph again as it is what I was thinking when the whole other thread was going on. I didn't want to add to what that thread was becoming though.

I think probably 99% of "unprovoked" attacks were given clear (to a dog) warning signals that it was about to happen. So many of a dog's signals are so subtle that they go missed by many.

I applaud your post Sophie. I too have a dog with aggression issues. And he too is managed to the best of my abilities. I think a lot of people could learn a lot about dog behavior and training by reading your posts.

Well since that was my quote I guess this thread was directed at me.



And that is exactly what I ment by it.
I do not classify a dog that is a fear biter,DA or anything like that to be agressive and need to be put down.
Would a fear BITER attack someone? Not likely..

Someone said that they got attacked by a dog and they didn't provoke it at all then that dog imo should be put down.
I know it's rare for a dog to be HA but it's not impossible and with all the inbreeding, crappy breeders, and irresponsible owners now a days it's becoming less rare.

I think the problem in understanding here is what you define as provoking a dog. A fear biter could and would absolutely attack somebody if that somebody didn't realize what they were doing was sending the dog into a fearful state. And don't think that all fearful dogs will tuck tails, duck heads, and crouch. Some have a very low threshold and will go from looking away from what scares them to attacking before it can get them.

[buttercup132]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

[IRescue452]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

[k9krazee]

Thank you. Said much better than I could have ever, Sophie. Good thread.

[Twisterdog]

Most aggressive dogs can be fit into a situation where there aggression can be controlled. Few need to be euthanized straight out. However, in the world we live in, shelters and rescues can expect to be sued even if they placed the dog with somebody willing and capable of working with aggressive dogs should that person be bitten.

This post brings up a good point. IF you can find the right owner for the particular dog at the right time, yes, most fearful/aggresive/reactive/ill/etc. dogs can be rehabilitated.

However, the problems lies with that big IF. And because of the gross pet overpopulation problem we have in this country, that is a HUGE IF. If one works at a shelter, and has one available spot to take a dog, one is going to take the passive, laid back, mellow dog. Because it's more likely to get adopted quickly, and it's less likely to cause a dangerous or expensive dog fight, or bite a person.

If you have a limited amount of time, money and space - and what shelter or rescue doesn't - you simply cannot spend the disporportionate amount of that it would require to save one aggresive/reactive dog, when you could save dozens of others instead.

Sad fact of our over-populated world.

[kokopup]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

[noellenc]

The unprovoked dog that I mentioned was viewed by the family as a gentle sweet dog. It would be playing with young children and just a short time later be down the street attacking something.

My mother-in-law was out hanging clothes on her line when all of a sudden this dog charges her with teeth showing and snarling. If she had not retreated to her house she would have been mauled. I was attacked in my yard and if it had not been for Koko defending me I would have been hurt also. The goats that were killed were in a fenced area. It had killed two goats and had gone after more when the owner intervened to run the dog off.

This poor misunderstood dog was sweet and gentle says the owners.
I think this animal falls in the category of one that needs to be put down. Playing with kids one minute and killing just minutes later tells me this dog has real issues. I would never trust it no matter how much rehab it had.

I am a cross-country Bicyclist and am attacked by dogs routinely. I
view these dogs as protection their territory. If I see that I can't out
run them I get out my water bottle and give them a squirt of water. I would never suggest these dogs be put down. I do see a major difference in breed as to those dogs just protecting their territory and
those protecting it and want to see blood flow.

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

[kokopup]

originally posted by noellenc

It sounds like these dogs aren't restrained. Are you attacked by dogs allowed out in yards that are not fenced? Did the dog that would have attacked your mother get out of the house, away from its owner on accident or dig under a fence? I don't understand why these dogs were loose. I would say whatever is allowing them to get to those points should be evaluated. A very territorial dog should not be owned by a family without fencing or some way to keep the dog away from walker/cyclists, if you ask me. My dog is a bit territorial. He won't attack someone for walking into our yard but he will bark until they get inside "his" fence. I would not let him outside without supervision as it is now just because his barking is annoying and he will be incessant unless I am out there with him. If he would try to attack anyone that came up to the fence to pet him (you never know), I would DEFINITELY never let him out alone, even at night when there aren't people out and about.

I had indicated in a previous post that the dog would be let out to
play with her kids that visited every week or so. The kids would tire
of watching the dog or would go in and no one would put the dog back in it's pen. The dog lived in a pen until the kids came to visit. It would be outside with the kids with no adult supervision. The dog would wander off to do it's thing because you have irresponsible owners.

The dog used to climb the fence to get out so they put a chicken wire
top on the pen. Unfortunately the chicken wire doesn't keep the dog from roaming if they neglect to put it back in the pen.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Originally posted by noellenc

And this might be a little scary to some but I heard a story from a man whose dog was within a fence and barked at a little girl riding by on her bike on the sidewalk. Apparently she fell on her bike and got hurt and her parents were suing the dog owner because the barking dog startled their daughter. The dog didn't even touch the little girl!! I certainly hope that didn't cause the dog to be put down.

I've heard stories on the news that stated something like this happening. I wonder how many times the dog has been blamed and destroyed for no reason. It's heartbreaking. It seems the dog's actual participation, or lack thereof, is almost always omitted from the stories.

[Giselle]

I mean like a person just walking by and your dog attacks them, that kind of situation.
Or if the dog was going after like friends and family that were over again if they were just sitting there not even touching the dog.

But that's exactly the human fallibility that I'm talking about. "Provocation" can often have little to do between the dog and the trigger. Most aggressive dogs fly off the top because of the specific environment.

For example, if you place Ivy in a dog park setting, she will not display aggressive behaviors. But if you place her in a stressful class environment and command her to do a complex behavior, the stress accumulates and she takes it out on a nearby dog. It is not the trigger itself that leads to an attack. It is a culmination of physical health, mental health, prior training, and the environment. So, for your examples of dogs attacking people for walking by, well my question is: Was the dog lying down? Was the dog sleeping? How long has the dog lived with the people? Is the dog completely healthy? Was the dog guarding a toy? Was the dog guarding its food? WHERE was the attack? What is the relationship between the person walking by and the dog? There is so much more to an aggressive attack than "Oh, Fido bit me as I walked by. He's uncontrollably aggressive and is unable to be helped (ergo, must be put down)."

All I'm saying is: We need to stop looking at aggression as am intangible conflict within the dog itself. It's not. It's a culmination of the environment, of the dog's temperament, of the dog's prior training, and of how other beings within the environment interact with the dog. We need to take on a biopsychosocial approach rather than instantly labelling and condemning aggressive dogs.

By the way, buttercup, I did not mean to single you out, but I was simply pointing out the type of statements that spurred me to make this thread.

[Taz_Zoee]

My mom rescued her dog Pepsi from being PTS because she had bit two people in her two years of life. The owners were required to either find her a home outside the city limits or she would be put down. After asking questions to the owners we discovered she bit these people when she had puppies. One bite per litter. Well duh! She was protecting her puppies. The people were just walking past the house when she ran out and bit them.
So, my mom only agreed to take her if they got her fixed. The owners gave us a muzzle to use when we take her to the vet. My mom has NEVER used it. We do know that she is not good with small children though. And apparently my niece forgot this and let her out while her little cousin was there and he got bit. My niece got in BIG trouble for this, not to mention she probably already felt bad enough.
So Pepsi was labeled "aggresive" but she now leads a very healthy happy life out in the country and gets LOTS of exercise everyday.
The only reason my parents agreed to take her was because of the circumstances and the fact that it wasn't HER fault she bit, it was the irresponsible owners.

Great thread Sophie! You know what I am going through with Zoee. Some might think she is aggresive. I like reactive better.