Dog Whisperer this past Saturday

[lizbud]

I am so glad you didn't get all bent out of shape over my questions.
I truly want to understand the training method you use. It does seem
to me you are only reacting to Ivy's bad choices, so she really is not the
submissive one, you are. Right?


The Premack Principal is a type/method of human conditioning.

[Emma<3Beth]

Ahh the relms of dog psychology certainly a hot topic. I get where you are coming from Giselle. Hey whatever works for you and doesn't hurt the dog i am all for it.

[Giselle]

It does seem
to me you are only reacting to Ivy's bad choices, so she really is not the
submissive one, you are. Right?

No, I disagree. What you're describing is a human's ideal of "dog dominance". Think of it like this: Dominance is used to DIFFUSE tension and KEEP order. Dominance, in its most natural form, is meant to keep inventory of resources - to prevent scuffles, to ensure that the members of the pack get their share. That is how one should view dominance. But when you try to extrapolate and say a dog is "dominant" because she's trying to manipulate the situation by making me react to her bad choices? That's taking the dominance concept a little too far.

She is not voluntarily choosing to react "badly" to make me submit to her, to make me react to her. Here's where I think CM followers and +R followers dissociate: Aggression/Reacting is NOT a completely voluntary choice. When dogs aggress and react, they are acting so due to knee-jerk, primal reflexes, usually fear, excitement, etc. They have attached a strong emotion to that trigger and, when they see the trigger, they are working with their instinct. They have literally entered another state of mind. If you've worked with a lot of aggressive dogs, you'll see their eyes harden, their muscles tense and quiver, their jaw muscles tighten, their focus on you severely decreases, etc. These are not voluntary actions. They are the result of a strong emotions tied to the trigger. So to rid the dog of the aggression, you have to change the base of those emotions. Essentially, you have to neutralize the trigger, which is most attainable through DS and CC (desensitize and counter condition).

The Premack Principal is a type/method of human conditioning.

All conditioning holds true for all animals, including humans.
Premack's Principle is a psychological principle. It was derived from a study of monkeys, not humans. In fact, a large majority of psychology's most major, fundamental principles have been derived from animal research, including Pavlov, Skinner, Harlow, etc. How can one claim that those principles are only "human conditioning" methods? If you've done "come-and-go" training with a dog, that's Premack's Principle right there.

[lizbud]

I am still completely in the dark over the terminology you use.

Could you give me the name of some Dog Trainers that use the Premack
principals or how "come and go" training works? Any reference tools would
be a big help. Thanks.

[Giselle]

Come and go training: Dog is interested in something else. Say "Come". As soon as dog flicks even an ear towards you, reward. Release the dog to sniff or be interested in whatever it's interested in. Say "Come". Dog turns towards you, reward. Release dog to do whatever it wants again. Say "Come". Dog turns to you, reward. Release dog. Over time, the value of staying by you and coming is exponentially greater than the value of distractions. Ergo, the "come" is strengthened. The dog *chooses* to stay by you, regardless of the distractions. Premack's principle at its best.

Virtually all handlers in competitive dog sports use this type of come and go training to strengthen the "come". Virtually all recall classes involve this game. This "come and go" training is also rapidly becoming a pivotal aspect of puppy/foundation classes, too. One trainer, in particular, who uses this game with exceptional creativity is Leslie McDevitt of "Control Unleashed". I believe Susan Garrett uses this concept fairly regularly, too, but somebody has to check me on that.

[IRescue452]

I still think the idiot (CM) needs to learn more about immediate dog health before training any more dogs. He recommends strenuous exercise for any dog he sees not knowing whether this would be a good health move for that particular dog. Does he know that a young large breed dog should not be run to exhaustion (if he does he doesn't show it on tv). I still can't get over the episode where he ran that picky-eater newfoundland until the dog was about to collapse and then let it cool off in a pool of water and drink to its heart's content and then brought in a huge bowl of food. The first time I watched that episode I almsot fell over in my seat I was so tense and waiting for the dog to start vomitting or just fall over dead. Hell, my dogs don't get to run off-leash at their own pace even a half-hour after a meal. I've seen them throw up their food an hour after a meal once when I took them to the dog park and they ran too much. I certainly don't feed them directly after running around, and this dog CM was "training" was forced to run non-stop until it was near collapse.

[Alasse]

I reckon CM is excellent, watch it every week. I use most of his techniques on my dogs. Works for me and mine.

[Flatcoatluver]

The one episode I watched I was in complete shock and I never will watch it again. The episode I watched was with a pit bull, yes I will admit he was very out of control. He was dog aggresive (what I could remember and I am pretty sure he has shown aggresion with people.) But the way he acted with this dog sickend me in my stomach. In my mind negativly touching the dog and cornering the dog is one of the worst things you could do to a (fear aggreisve dog). Then he had his young son do the same thing, and I could not belive he would actually put his son in that situation. I don't care if the dog was the nicest dog in the world, you do not put your child in that situation.

Yes I will admit some dogs his methods will work, but with a lot of dogs, mine included, my dogs would lose all there confidence and would just crumble. My flat-coat when she was young, was VERY aggresive with men, but with the clicker and A LOT of praise, she now loves men and I am proud to call her a excellent therapy dog. I have a strong feeling what he would have done with Zoey and the thought scares me.