Need Advice on Finnegan *UPDATE POST #21*

[BC_MoM]

I doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't properly kennel trained (although, he probably wasn't). Some dogs just can't stand it. Personally, I believe in the long run it isn't healthy for dogs to be in crates, regardless of size, through puppy and adulthood.

Our rescue director emailed me her opinion, and she thinks 8 hours in a crate for a 3 1/2 month old high drive BC is too much.

I really appreciate the input, though.

And Amy, you are absolutely NOT an unsuitable dog owner!!!

[bckrazy]

Hmmm.... that really is a difficult decision. Especially being how special Finn is to you.

My friend has a Border Collie puppy. She lives with her brother and her Mom, and I live about 5 minutes away. Sadie was crated when she needed to be, but we worked out our schedules every day so that she wasn't in it for more than 3 hours at a time, and she had a good 1-2 hours of running and playing in between crate time.

To me, honestly, a BC puppy is not going to be physically and mentally exercised properly with that kind of schedule. I would recommend that the family adopts a BC that is a mature adult. There were a few days when Sadie was in her crate for longer periods, and my friend called me unexpectedly to visit and let her out. She was obviously VERY tired of being in that crate, when I got there. With a breed like this, 8 hours of solid crating EVERY day, with only a half an hour break... it's just not the ideal situation, in my opinion.

If these people were very experienced with the breed, or if Finn would be getting a solid 1-2 hours of play and free time in between crating, or if they were going to actively involve him in dog sports/training, it might be different... but if they're the "average" home, I would not adopt him out to that situation. Plus, with a LOT of people, they will make a situation sound much better than it actually is. Like you said, who knows of the teenager will actually be coming home every single day and who knows if he'll do anything more than take Finn out to eliminate and put him right back in? Unless they will be incredibly commited to dedicating basically ALL of their time at home, before and after work/school, to playing with Finn, socializing Finn, and training Finn, I can see such a situation being detrimental to the development of a puppy of such an intelligent and active breed. Isn't Finn a bit undersocialized, too? I would be very picky in his case especially, to find a home that knows what they're doing and has time to work with him in this important stage of his puppyhood.

When I adopted Fozzie, it was stated on his Petfinder page that some one had to be home most or part of the day. Luckily, there is basically always some one home with the dogs here. I don't think it's incredibly picky to ask that at least part of a full work day is spent at home with a young puppy... particularly in breeds that do need lots of physical and mental stimulation to be happy and well-adjusted.

[finn's mom]

In a perfect world, you could find him someone who doesn't work, who has another dog and who competes in a dog sport.

But, in this world, I say be picky, but choose your battles, too. If it were me, I'd be more concerned about what they did with the dog when they *were* home then when they *weren't* (unless it was leaving them chained up outside when they weren't).

MY Finn was crated til he was two years old. I don't know how anyone trains a puppy if they're not home and the puppy is left to run around the house. EEK. I shudder to think what Finn would have done to my place if he'd been left out while I was at work.

But, when I was home, we were pretty much always doing something. Whether it was walking, training, playing, eating, laying together, etc.

If you have the choice between someone who is going to crate your Finn for 8 hours a day, but then take him to flyball when he gets home, or play ball or take long walks or train for flyball...or someone who stays home all day, and doesn't crate Finn for very long, but never does more than just letting him outside for potty breaks and a walk once a week or something, I'd go with the crate 8 hours a day. But, that's just me.

Good luck, whatever you decide to do. To me, it doesn't sound like this family is right for Finn, regardless of the crate. Only because I think if you had a good feeling about him, the crate thing would be secondary. I could be way off on that, but that was just my gut feeling when I read your post.

[binka_nugget]

I completely agree with bckrazy. If they were an active sports home or a very breed experienced home, it'd be a different story. I don't think it's a matter of whether crating for 8 hours a day is right or wrong for your typical family dog -- It's whether it's right or not for a Border Collie pup. Your typical Border Collie is high drive and NEEDS work. Eight hours of crating would be living hell for a dog that was bred to work all day. I work full time and spend a ton of time working with Keeva because she needs a job. It's already overwhelming as it is without having her crated for 8 hours a day.

Are they set on a pup? An older, lower drive BC might fit her family a little better..

[Husky_mom]

I guess it has to do with the breed too... a BC might need more out time than crate time..

huskies can and are also active dogs... and can and are very very destructive if bored ... so no matter what breed you get it´s also an individual thing... I think you should consider what was suggested, what are they actually doing when he´s out of crating... as he´ll need TONS of exercise and stimulation to "conpensate"..

in this particular case I would recommend to keep looking...

Queeq, a Pom, gets "crated" in a bathroom from 8:30 to 4.... sometimes 5... but then she´s out... then goes back to sleep at 9:30-10p.m. and she doesn´t complains or whines... but she´s a smaller dog... but when out she does a few laps and then just plays normally...

[Catty1]

I have read a bit here on crate training...I think it depends on the size of the crate and the type of training.

If it is a larger dog cage with a doggy bed, food, water, toys - and IF the pup is trained to see it as a happy safe place, it can work very well.

It should NEVER be used for punishment.

If you are talking to this person again, you might ask what kind of crate they are thinking of, and how they crate trained their previous dogs. (If they never have had dogs, and HAVEN'T crate trained any, well, there you go!)

[Animalhouse26]

Personally, I have NO probs with Crating the dogs for 8hrs. That is a Standard work shift.And the fact that she is having someone come to let the dog out in the middle of the day is good.
I personally feel if a dog is getting Enough Excersize Out of the crate.. Then crating them 7-8 hr a day is fine and dandy.
Everyone has to remember Dogs are Den animals, and if trained right.. don't mind sitting in the crate that long.
I Don't work right now, But when I do.. My Foster is in a crate.. the whole time, as I have no one to come in the middle of the day to let him out.. And he is fine.
He sleeps in the crate at night, because otherwise he would destroy my house.. and that is a MIN of 8hrs. And he sleeps the whole time. :-/ And he is a happy Puppy.. No issues at all.
With the Economy the way it is.. finding someone that can afford a dog, that DOESNT Work 8+ hrs .. is going to be hard. But leaving a pup or dog out of the crate .. that isn't trained.. is a bad idea in my eyes. That could end up with the dog in the hospital for eating somthing you didn't think he could. Or you coming home to a destroyed home.

So, that is my 2 cents

[Giselle]

I don't think it's a matter of whether crating for 8 hours a day is right or wrong for your typical family dog -- It's whether it's right or not for a Border Collie pup.

I was going to say the same.

Border Collies are special dogs that need special owners. They are not just high energy. They are not just intelligent and biddable. They don't just need obedience training. BC's are *intense*. I never really understood what that meant until I got Ivy, but, now that I do know what it means, I know that intense dogs need intensely committed owners.

Crating 8 hours a day for a high drive, intense BC pup may be doable if the owner was highly active outside of the crating times. So that, then, becomes your question: Are they as intense as the dog or are they ready to commit to it?

[shepgirl]

I personally never crated my dogs unless it was for housebreaking. BC are especially prone to destructive behaviors if they don't have their exercise needs met, hen the owners wonder why... Dogs are den animals but even den animals roam during the day and go back to the den to sleep at night. I've had friends crate their dogs while they worked all day and it was easy to see the dogs were bored and not that well behaved. I would wait for a more suitable home. Teens have a lot of stuff going on , they might not want to continue coming home to let the pup out.

[Freedom]

Why not go hang out at a local training place, during flyball practice, have him with you, see if anyone would be interested?

Just a thought.