Why does my dog do a behavior wrong?

[Giselle]

Joel, you're misreading me.

I clearly said, dogs see behavior as rewarded and punished (and neutral). Humans see behavior as right and wrong. I was mentioning the distinction between the two.

I said, To properly communicate with the dog what is right and what is wrong, you reward what is "right" and punish what is "wrong".

I said, Dog doesn't know NOT to perform a "wrong" behavior unless there is a punishment or alternative behavior w/ stronger reward. Ergo, dog will perform a "bad" behavior unless there is a punishment or unless there is an alternative behavior with a stronger reward. This is the basis of Premack's Principle.

I never said that it's not OK for a dog to make a mistake or that he can/can't learn what is "right" without doing what is "wrong".

You're assuming I'm 100% positive reinforcement when I never said anything like that.

[Catlady711]

Joel, you're misreading me.

You're assuming I'm 100% positive reinforcement when I never said anything like that.

I get the distinct impression that the OP does not speak English as a first language, just the way he's writing. That could be some of the misunderstandings. JMHO.

[JoelSilverman]

Hi Giselle,

I am not assuming that you are 100% positive reinforcement at all. And if you were, I would totally respect that, by the way. Even though it is something that I may not do.

I am not misreading you. You said there is no such thing as a wrong behavior. I am respectfully disagreeing. Dogs do understand right and wrong. I teach dogs right and wrong, and they do see it as right and wrong. Maybe I will better understand what you are saying if you can define what you classify as a punishment and what you define as a correction, and do you use either?

And understand, I am just asking you and just wanted to get your feedback on this, so I can explain what your ideas to other people. I just am having a hard time understanding this, so please bear with me.

[Giselle]

Sorry, Joel, in my book, dogs don't have a moral understanding of "right" and "wrong". To know "right" and "wrong" is to imply that the animal has a distinct moral code.

Rather, dogs know a) REWARDED behavior and b) PUNISHED behavior. Rewarded v. Punished, not "right" v. "wrong". The dog thinks in positive, negative, rewarded, punished. They don't see "right" and "wrong". WE see "right" and "wrong". WE determine what is "right" and "wrong" behavior.

"Right" and "wrong" are human manifestations. When you say you teach your dog right and wrong behaviors, you're teaching them behaviors that elicit rewards vs. punishments. They see it as "will this behavior elicit reward or punishment?" not, "should I do this because it is 'right'?"

As far as I and the scientific community is concerned, dogs haven't yet proven that they possess that moral guidance. So I believe you and I have different definitions of the words "right" and "wrong" and "good" and "bad".

[Bonny]

Dog & children don't know right from wrong & have to be taught. I have both in my life & am now a grandmother. I guess repetition is the key factor here along with patience. Knowing the child or dog you learn what to expect. If you call the child or dog & they run in the other direction you patiently go get them. The dog gets petted & the child gets taken by the hand & led away from wherever they were running too. I use petting the dog & talking nicely to them as a reward & sometimes a biscuit to get them to understand they will be treated with doggy respect.