Dog Breeds -- Then and Now

[So-Crafty]

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

[Spiritwind]

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

Now the european collies are smaller, based on their standard - they are 2 inches shorter. However in recent years there have been lines of american collies, that have produced dogs that are MUCH smaller.... I personally prefer dogs on the larger end of the standard, still in the standard but the larger end of it... though I do have a couple bitches that are barely 21" tall... north american breed standard is 22-24 for bitches... 24-26 for males.

It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines.

The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

Just for an extra FYI... European Shelties look nothing like American Shelties either... they have a similar look to the collies over there... different head styles -- more stop, different expression because of the eye placement and shape... I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

Yeah, I've noticed these things with the Cockers as well!...

[So-Crafty]

I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

I know that some groomers can work magic, but those coats are just insane! They kind of also remind me of those Old English Sheepdogs (the grey and white ones).

It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines. The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

Now that's just a shame. That's what I hate about [some] breeders. They should be all about the breed and what it was bred to do and looks should come second. And good for those people that they made it to Crufts! I would LOVE to go to Crufts some day just as a spectator!

You said you're on other Collie forums? Can you send me a link? I'd love to join some breed-specific forums!

[Spiritwind]

Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

Yes, for the most part it is MUCH easier to import dogs into europe. It depends on what country (the UK still has some tougher regulations) because each country has their own regulations, but when I sent the one dog to Finland, all he had to be was current on his rabies vaccine, be microchipped, have tape worm meds no more than 14 days before the flight, and have a vet exam no more than 24hrs before the flight. You also have to have your regular health certificate (like when flying within the US) no more than 10 days old and a bilingual health certificate approved by the USDA no more than 30 days old....

Some countries require rabies titers, Finland did not. I had to drive him 6hrs south of here to the Atlanta Airport though to get a direct flight out of the US (other wise he would have changed planes 2 times before leaving the US). Which flew him from Atlanta into Frankfurt, Germany -- with a 2 hr lay over, where he got examined by a vet again, before getting on the plane to Helsinki, Finland.