Official Prong Collar Advocate

[SemaviLady]

What I don't understand is if the dog has been chosen for service work, why would someone train it with a prong? I've never seen any SD trained with a prong, facilities just don't use them.

I've been disabled all my life and know many adults that are disabled since birds of a feather tend to find each other. Many of us use service dogs in an official or less formal capacity.

Dogs chosen for service work are NOT machines. They are still capable of having bad days and good days and facing new situations with which they are not yet comfortable. Their handlers also have built in limitations which can require some unique approaches and many disabled people cannot wait two years or more for a program trained dog, so they have to train their own using adaptive techniques. Some like me, use their own dogs that show that special talent as adults, others may adopt a younger dog and hope it turns out.

We can't generalize about handicapped people, their abilities, range of motion, ability to react in a timely manner, their strengths and weaknesses ...

hey for that matter -- step back a bit.... you cannot even generalize about an able bodied person training a dog. Put 15 able bodied people into a dog training class with dogs from different breed genres, from terriers to gun dogs, to toys, herding dogs and flock guardians, and voila... you have a collection of people who have diverse levels of different strengths and abilities, as do their dogs. Tiny frail people do not necessarily want to have a tiny frail dog. Klutzy people sometimes own fast athletic dogs. Some speedy "type A" people like to have a lumbering big dog that is slow and methodical.

There ya go. They need a trainer, communication mediator sensitive enough to find the right tools to help establish a working partnership and successful communication between each pair of members in each unique team.

That is asking a lot even with able bodied people. We know many able bodied people leave a class taught by an able bodied trainer and yet they still have a dog out of control when they leave class. - Left (leash) arm longer than the right? (check) The dog believes the leash is made of rubber? (check) Dog pees at every sign post and ignores the handler? (check) The dog still leaves in a heartbeat if it sees a squirrel? (check)

Pray tell, what kind of dog trainer was that? "Politically correct" artist who paints by number? Sometimes you have to be a Picasso. You do have to blend tools and 'colors' and dirt in order to get success.

Dog trainers who are attuned to their students and the student's dogs know that each part of the team creates a potential need for a different approach and sometimes different equipment. To think otherwise is rather arrogant.

A person I know who has MS and one leg, helps to train other people with their service dogs from wheel chair (on her good days). Some of these people may be paralyzed in a limb but they need a big dog to help them with their balance to help them feel safe when they are walking alone in the inner city. Do you know how to help train them to train their dogs while they are manipulating a walker or wheelchair? What if they are having a bad day and have spasms? Remember this is a service dog that will have to work without a trainer overseeing them when the handler has a bad day. A prong collar may help a person who has wrist problems or who needs to lock their hands onto a walker.

Many disabled people who train their own dogs are quite attuned to dog language of their own dog(s). If they see their service dog yawning or averting their eyes, they know something is up and know to look to see what the dog is telling them. Some of them due to their specific limitations and even preferences, do use prong collars - I have only used it for specific situations and sometimes it is years before I dust it off again. Some use ruffled bungees to cover the collars to protect them from being harrassed by 'dog experts' who know so much better than anyone and who jump to conclusions.

I have some pics and a blog post about my service dogs here.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - Awesome post.
Nicole

[shepgirl]

Bckrazy, of course you deserve praise and a lot of credit. If not for you mentioning this fact we would have continued training with the same old ways. The trainer is so busy, she doesn't get much time to ggogle anything, She's one of the best and to remain the best she continues taking clinics and courses on dog behavior. So this really helped her . She will be incorporating this in her next newsletter. We try as hard as we can to rectify problems, but with the multitude of dogs with individual temperaments it gets hard to follow what everybody seems to take for granted...focus on those different temperaments.
Of course we have the flunkies, but we consider the owners flunkies since they never pay attention, never come back for the next lesson with their dog prepared, etc.
Our trainer is now working on revamping her whole teaching methods.
Take a bow Bckrazy....

[shepgirl]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars. But yes, I watch people train their family dogs with prongs all the time, the prong isn't new to me. One place that will absolutely NOT use them is PetSmart. For some reason it is against the store policy, just found that out while talking to a salesclerk while doing some shopping there.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars. But yes, I watch people train their family dogs with prongs all the time, the prong isn't new to me. One place that will absolutely NOT use them is PetSmart. For some reason it is against the store policy, just found that out while talking to a salesclerk while doing some shopping there.

Shepgirl she was not talking about family dogs and you know it. She was talking about dogs being trained to be Service Dogs. Dogs that are trained to be Service dogs with the prong. Stop twisting things.
Nicole

[shepgirl]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.

Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash.
This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I've watched people train dogs with almost every kind of gimmick out there. It doesn't mean the dog wouldn't learn without them, but their choice is to use training tools.which is perfectly fine, I've also used training aids.
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program and given to a pet home or back to the foster home that nurtured them. They can also become EAD.
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs. Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.

[NicoleLJ]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.

Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash.
This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I've watched people train dogs with almost every kind of gimmick out there. It doesn't mean the dog wouldn't learn without them, but their choice is to use training tools.which is perfectly fine, I've also used training aids.
But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program and given to a pet home or back to the foster home that nurtured them. They can also become EAD.
The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs. Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.

Agian you are false. Some facilities do use prongs. Why? Because some people, Like people that are severally paralized, are very weak in the hands so they need a collar that will get a quick response. Agian just because you have not see it does not mean it is not done. I am on enough training groups for Service dogs that have trainers from facilities and owner trainers to know this.
Nicole

[SemaviLady]

SemivaLady --- I love your Anatolians, we have a few around here as well, but they aren't that well known. Supposedly make good guard dogs for livestock.

Thanks, and yes that is their heritage. They are very independent and tend not to transfer authority very well to other members of the same family sometimes. They are sometimes inclined to treat a person like a clod of dirt if they have other priorities. Selective deafness and all of that. So it takes a very specialized approach to modify their training and find ways to motivate them for different needs.

Above, a couple pups with sheep.

Many Anatolian breeders have taken dogs back from 'pet dog trainers' who gave up on their Anatolians. Some had truly met their match in these dogs. Most pet trainers also do not compete in formal obedience as the degree of control & precision in sport training is just not 'their thing'. This is not to say that Anatolians are sport dogs but this is an example of why it is that some trainers are not as well balanced in their theory work as they think they are. It does seem that 'pet dog trainers' are very common now and some seem to be very opinionated. That's fine by me. We are all entitled to an opinion.

I have had problems however when the prospective owners of Anatolians report back to me saying that a trainer in their area will not accept Anatolians in their classes (I've seen the similar frustrations in reports on Caucasion Ovcharka and on Kuvasz, among other flock guardian breeds). This is not a general rule, but it does happen that some flock guardian breeds are refused outright before even being seen. This is hopefully changing. It's probably more common for owners of bull breeds to automatically be refused attendance in some training classes.

Anyway, about the training of dogs....you really don't need anything but love and understanding to train a dog. I've watched some people train their dogs with no collar otr leash. This is where you can apply the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

There is a danger in this in assuming all dogs and breeds of dogs are the same. This is why some of the Anatolians I know had to go back to their breeders. The expectations of the trainers were not prepared. Breeders did warn, this is a very independent dog, blah blah, but sometimes trainers are a bit overconfident. The breeder is hopeful and places the dog with this perfect sounding home, and before the dog is 18 months (in one case, only four months of age) the dog is back with the breeder. It is generally true that both the handler and the dog need to find a level of communication that is successful and I think sometimes Anatolians really drive that point home where it will not soon be forgotten. For some individuals the path is a bit easier and they wonder, are all Anatolians like this? -- their next one usually shows them the ropes.

But this is why a SD facility would never use a prong to train a dog for service work. They are amazing the way they train dogs. If a dog comes along that needs a prong or harsh training methods he is simply ruled out of the program

As I wrote in a previous post, this is an option for trainers who can choose the types of dogs they will train.

This is not a real world situation for trainers who MUST find ways to establish communication, trust and respect between a human and a canine student.

There is no cop out for them.

The ordinairy trainer has more choice in what they wish to use to train their dogs.

Depending on the person, their skills and motivation may or may not allow them to cop out on different situations.

Without prongs some owners would have to give their dogs up, so prongs do have their place in training. A 65 yr old lady would never have the strength to train a boistrous boxer, or a strong willed large dog, but with a prong it gives her the advantage she needs. a time and place for everything.

I agree. I don't think we disagree on anything previously written. Just that we have a different way of approaching it. I like having multiple choice in training methods.

Since I am a breeder of a potentially difficult and enormous breed, I often have to keep the human, canine and sometimes livestock behavior elements in mind when making a match or creating a solution. I usually advise people not to fight fire with fire when it comes to Anatolians, but there are times when strong adversives are necessary. The Anatolian has a very high pain threshold and electrified fencing may not hold them in if they see a predator such as a bear, lion or cheetah on the other side of a fence. Likewise in training with a human, sometimes a firm voice or a look (even a raspberry) can put them off (make them obey), other times you have to yank them off their feet. Their drive and gameness is legendary in Turkey.

[SemaviLady]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars.

I'm not posting to argue but to clarify some core issues.

The OP was talking about real life scenarios and you happened to mention SD facilities in the course of the discussion, which I perceived as a general example for supporting the argument of non-use of the prong collar.

If you examine your comment, you say these facilities train without prongs.

Here is a main issue. Trainers in facilities are not not your average joe and they are not training average dogs. Do be aware that dogs chosen by SD 'facilities' for training are a subset of reality and the entire scenario has little similarity to real life circumstances and actual users of SDs and the eventual owners who need control over their dogs.

Compare real life dogs to the following:
Facility trained dogs are often expected to be certain generic breeds with selectively endorsed, despecialized behaviors. To further differentiate them from 'typical dogs', most used in service work are initially screened using a Vollhard type test and other protocols (and yet still result in 50% failure on average but this is another issue and an area where I also have experience).

What is "despecialized"? These dogs represent a population that are not intense herders, earthdogs, hunters, sighthounds, protection breeds, flock guardians, or gun dogs. These selected are not highly independent dogs which can have strong opinions about what their canine purpose on earth shall be and so ...they are ruled out. Dogs that are chosen are usually social, people oriented, medium or softer in temperament and are characteristically despecialized representatives of a limited number of breeds.

Secondly: Regardless of breed, these dogs are expected to be trainable for the professional SD trainer who is using predefined "accepted" protocols of training -- or else, the dogs are systematically removed from the training program when they are not adaptable to the program's methods.

Above selection scenario has elements of 'fixing the outcome' due to preselection ...and continuous removal of dogs from the programs.

It does not represent the general population of dogs. It can hardly be used as an endorsement for the non-use of prong collars.

I am not dissing positive methods of training method that work.

BF Skinner wrote about operant conditioning. It was only later that some took the methods, applied them to dogs and later there started to be a sort of religious jihad against other methods.

And finally, back to the program trained service dogs -- another reality check. ---

SD users (and the public) do run into certified program trained dogs whose owners are not able to consistently "perform" with their dogs with the same level of response as did their dog's trainers. --- NOT that it is happened, but to think that SD trainers could actually take a moral high ground due to the fact that they personally did not need prongs to train dogs to meet their own training goals, has very little practical relevance to the SD user who is not as 'accomplished' or able bodied enough -- and who desperately needs to stop their dog 5 seconds from now, from ripping their arm partly out of its socket. A prong could fix that in a second without argument from the dog.

But yes of course, bravo to the dog's initial trainer who didn't personally need it themselves.

On my site, I have written:

The best Trainers are those who never stop learning.

* They are the ones who have learned not to base their opinions about the usefulness of a training method, on the inability of someone (or a population of people) to understand and learn to use a method correctly.
* They are the ones best equipped to work with the sometimes unconventional (but so true-to-life) combinations of individual idiosyncrasies, personal strengths, and weaknesses which present with each student-dog/handler team.

. . .even when it means they must revise previously held concepts and challenge old ideas.